Hot Tub wiring?

[6togo]

So I have a Hot tub to wire up it's a 50amp unit. it has to run up and down the walls and across a small attic into a 2030 box on the wall near the tub. I planned on running 6/2 Romex thru the attic and walls for an easier install Vs conduit but once outside I will run conduit into the tub from the box. What should I use for wiring in the conduit #6 THHN for the hots and #? for the ground?

 

[mm08822]

Verify that you don't need 6-3. Newer hot tubs need a neutral.
#10 for the ground.
You will also need gfci protection and a disconnect within 5-20'. Add a gfci recept.

 

[6togo]

I believe the 2030 box has a Gfci breaker that came with the tub and it will be 5' away from the tub on a close wall. I looked at the spec sheet and don"t recall it stating a 3 wire but I will be at it tomorrow to verify. Worst case I run 6/3 Romex then a extra #6 wire for the neutral in the conduit.

 

[Trip McNealy]

Verify that you don't need 6-3. Newer hot tubs need a neutral.
#10 for the ground.
You will also need gfci protection and a disconnect within 5-20'. Add a gfci recept.

I second this. We bought a home last year that has an existing hot tub on the rear patio wired up on a 50A circuit with a double-pole GFCI breaker. When I had an electrician come out for other work, he mentioned should we eventually replace the tub, that we will need it wired up in a similar manner that mm08822 stated. Ours has the disconnect within range but on the interior wall which is not to current code; it needs to be outside.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ive seen 20/30 hot tub setups that definitely require a neutral… this means running 6/3 NM-b

 

[micromind]

Even if the hot tub doesn't need the neutral, you'll need it to make the GFI work. It won't trip without a neutral.

 

[tyromeo55]

Even if the hot tub doesn't need the neutral, you'll need it to make the GFI work. It won't trip without a neutral.

not true

Edit: I'll bend a little on this. The couple of spec sheets I looked over indicating that it (neutral pigtail) needs to be landed. This is a liability hedge. In function, the breaker does not need it to function properly if a neutral is unused.

from Siemens

"
The Siemens 2-pole GFCI circuit breaker can be installed on a 120/240V AC single phase, 3 wire
system, the 120/240V AC portion of a 240/120 volt, 3 phase, 4 wire system, or on a 208Y/120 volt, 3
phase, 4 wire system. When installed on these systems, protection is provided for 2 wire, 240V AC or
208V AC circuits; 3 wire, 120/240V AC circuits"

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Even if the hot tub doesn't need the neutral, you'll need it to make the GFI work. It won't trip without a neutral.

Incorrect

 

[mm08822]

Let's clarify this.....the circuit protected by the gfci cb does not a neutral as part of the circuit being protected.
The gfci cb however, needs to be connected to a neutral for the internals of the cb to function.

 

[tyromeo55]

@

Let's clarify this.....the circuit protected by the gfci cb does not a neutral as part of the circuit being protected.
The gfci cb however, needs to be connected to a neutral for the internals of the cb to function.

I see what your saying and agree with you that (at least for Siemens and SQd) would definitely need to be installed if not simply for its manual stating to do so. But still. I don't believe you can accurately say "It won't trip without a neutral" as quoted elsewhere. I've personally tested it as have others in depth on other forums (mike holt). If your only using the 2 phase conductors and omit the neutral pigtail the breaker will (i beleive) function provided leakage over its design limit. One thing Id bet you would /could loose on the SQd would be the self test or even the trip button.

Again... Yes. I agree that it needs to be installed My brain just has a little internal skip when I see the exact wording in post 6

 

[mm08822]

@


I see what your saying and agree with you that (at least for Siemens and SQd) would definitely need to be installed if not simply for its manual stating to do so. But still. I don't believe you can accurately say "It won't trip without a neutral" as quoted elsewhere. I've personally tested it as have others in depth on other forums (mike holt). If your only using the 2 phase conductors and omit the neutral pigtail the breaker will (i beleive) function provided leakage over its design limit. One thing Id bet you would /could loose on the SQd would be the self test or even the trip button.

Again... Yes. I agree that it needs to be installed My brain just has a little internal skip when I see the exact wording in post 6

Which mode of tripping are you referring to? I believe for ground faults it is 100% required as the circuity and logic processor need power. Possibly for overload/short circuit it may function as a standard cb w/o panel neutral connected to cb. Can't say I ever thought about not connecting it.....otherwise, what is the point to buy/install it?

 

[tyromeo55]

Which mode of tripping are you referring to? I believe for ground faults it is 100% required as the circuity and logic processor need power. Possibly for overload/short circuit it may function as a standard cb w/o panel neutral connected to cb. Can't say I ever thought about not connecting it.....otherwise, what is the point to buy/install it?

For academic purposes.... Take a 2 pole GFCI breaker and completely omit connecting a neutral. Take any or both phase conductors and leak its rated current to earth (typically 6ma) It will (in my experience) trip. The internal potential relay and its CT dont rely on logic (at least not where I've seen). The logic is for automated periodic testing and sometimes feedback. Could you imagin a potential death riding on the hope that a little logic board is working properly? Admittedly Its been many years but at one time we were required to test every breaker installed for a particular large commercial customer. Sometimes I think it would be neat to make another test rig if only to show green horns trip curves and show how potential Short circuit capacity can have affect

I really just need to learn to keep my mouth shut and not take things to literal. bad "tick" of mine - Apoligies to all for de-railing.

 

[micromind]

Even if the hot tub doesn't need the neutral, you'll need it to make the GFI work. It won't trip without a neutral.

I should have been more clear......I meant the white wire needs to be connected to the neutral bus in order for the GFI portion of the breaker to trip. The overload and short circuit portions will work without the white wire connected.

 

[dcg9381]

Both of our hot tubs (30A and 50A) require neutral. Whatever that is worth. These are "simple" tubs with single 2-speed motors and heater.

 

[dave*99]

So I have a Hot tub to wire up it's a 50amp unit. it has to run up and down the walls and across a small attic into a 2030 box on the wall near the tub. I planned on running 6/2 Romex thru the attic and walls for an easier install Vs conduit but once outside I will run conduit into the tub from the box. What should I use for wiring in the conduit #6 THHN for the hots and #? for the ground?

Since the conduit is outdoors, you will need THWN

 

[6togo]

Ok so once I got to the tub today it did require a neutral so I ran 6/3 from the main panel to the 20/30 spa box. This 20/30 is a bit different than I have dealt with before big wire in and 10/12ga. to the spa. One thing I'm unsure of the is the specs show the two Gfci breaker but only one gets a neutral wire not both and they both have a spot in the center for one. I assume these are universal and fit other spa setups but I would like to know if the second neutral is needed.

 

[micromind]

Every GFI breaker needs to have the built-in white wire connected to the neutral bus.

Not every GFI breaker will have the neutral connected to the load.

The built-in white wire needs to be connected to the neutral bus because the internal GFI circuitry is 120 volts and uses one of the poles and the white to operate.

 

[6togo]

Yes both 20 and 30 amp breakers have the built in white pig tail going to the bus with the neutral from the main panel. Both breaker have a third lug for neutrals but it only shows one of them getting the neutral from the spa. I believe the 30amp runs the heater and the 20amp runs the pumps and panel that way they are isolated if the heater fails you can still move water so it don't freeze.

 

[micromind]

I think you've got it. The heater is 240 volts and doesn't need a neutral. The pumps can be either 120 or 240 but the controls are almost always 120 so the neutral is needed.

 

[u2slow]

Both of our hot tubs (30A and 50A) require neutral. Whatever that is worth. These are "simple" tubs with single 2-speed motors and heater.

Mine is a simple one too. (20yo Beachcomber.) On this one, the neutral is only needed for the underwater light.

 

[juddspaintballs]

Ive seen 20/30 hot tub setups that definitely require a neutral… this means running 6/3 NM-b

Yep. I wired up my dad's hot tub and I was prepared to do a 50A GFCI breaker only to find out that it required a 20/30. The package he bought came with the panel and breakers at least, so all I had to do was run the wiring and hook it up to the hot tub.

 

[sparky 1971]

Whenever someone calls me about wiring a hot tub, the first question I ask is "is it a Hot Springs?" If yes, I know it's a 20/30 and the disconnect is going to be provided. If no, it's more than likely that I have to get the disconnect. Either way, it's getting a neutral.

 

[dcg9381]

A buddy bought a hot tub recently (higher end, local hot tub shop) - I was helping him wire it and I found that the instructions for that particular tub (dont remember brand) explicitly prohibited the use of many of the common Home Depot / Lowes "spa panel / breaker" brands...

 

[mm08822]

A buddy bought a hot tub recently (higher end, local hot tub shop) - I was helping him wire it and I found that the instructions for that particular tub (dont remember brand) explicitly prohibited the use of many of the common Home Depot / Lowes "spa panel / breaker" brands...

Interesting. So what did they "allow"?

Please have your buddy screenshot that requirement or get mfr/model#.