House attic insulation

[Dragster Racer]

We built a new home last year....larger than we need at 2900 sq ft plus the basement which is not heated intentionally. We came from a much smaller and poorly insulated house...about 1/3rd the size of this one. We are using much more propane in the new home than I thought we would, at about twice what the old house used. We do have a lot of windows, which I know doesn't help. We used a decent Pella with low E glass. One of the rooflines never seems to have snow on it, so I went up to check insulation, and it's there...about 11 inches of blown in fluffy. I'm not familiar with it, but it doesn't look like the cellulose I have blown in myself...not dusty. It's white. In northern IL, is that enough? I am sure it has settled some since they blew it. Lack of snow maybe because of south facing and the wind tendencies here.
I am looking for ways to make this house a little better efficiency wise. We keep it at 57 at night and 63 during the day in the winter. The walls are batt R19 in 6" cavity with Tyvek wrap. We will be sealing outlets, expecially on the outside walls today. The bathroom exhaust fans have always seemed like they let in cold air. They are vented out of the attic walls..the ouside has a flap, and the fans themselves have flaps.
I haven't seen any programs locally to do home energy audits. I am a do it yourselfer to the core, and either I will do the work or the contractor will come in if it is something they were neglegent on. The only thing I probably won't tackle is blowing in more if we need to. But I could even talk myself into that probably.

 

[cowboy73]

Sounds like you have blown in fiberglass up there. 9 1/2" of fiberglass is approx an R-30 so you're sitting at roughly R-38ish. Northern IL should have between an R-38 and an R-60. So you need approximately anouther 8" or so of insulation up there to make it up to R-60. What type of ductwork does the house have? If it's metal, are all of the joints sealed with that aluminum duct tape?
Buy one of those noncontact lazer thermometer things from HF or Sears and walk around the house looking for cold spots. Point the thing at the trim around the windows and doors and up in the corners and along the ceiling. Check in the basement at the sill plates on top of the basement walls. Check any basement windows for air leaks also around the frames. You can also put insulation between the floor joist in the basement ceiling to keep the warmth in the living space. Caulk around any holes that are in the basement ceiling where wires and pipes come up to the first floor. Keep the warm air in the living space that way.

 

[Gary S]

Your walls should be your strong point right now. The 11" or so in the attic should be something near R40 depending on what the insulation really is. That shouldn't be a problem either.
Windows are always a problem. More windows mean a bigger problem. A double pane thermopane is only about R3 and there isn't much you can do to fix it. A triple pane is about R5. Either one is very poor compared to your R19 wall.
Heating more square footage is likely the rest of the problem.

You can get thermal drapes for inside and use them anytime it is dark or the sun isn't shining. A good thermal drape insulates more than a pane of glass.

I bumped up my attic insulation a couple of years ago from around R35 to R50 and saw no improvement in fuel comsumption. I commonly see -40 here and it didn't help.

 

[Dragster Racer]

Bismarck. Brrr!
Seems like it the windows and the little stuff that is getting me. Now and then I find a place where the wind can work its way in through a door crack or window seal. The great room has 12' wide by about 17' tall window set. We have great views, and want to take advantage of them. But the windows cost us. The drapes are a good idea, but I can see it just like that Will Smith movie where he uses the steel shutters to keep out the zombies. I'll just chase the little stuff and go from there.
Oh, in the basement there is metal ductwork, and you are probably right about sealing that stuff up. Tape or mastic I would guess?
Not real impressed with some of the Pella window seals. Not perfect for the money we spent.
I should probably break down and get a outdoor wood boiler and stay comfortable....and cut a lot of wood. Oh well. The LP guy needs to make a living too.

 

[cowboy73]

They make a special HVAC aluminum foil tape to seal ducts with. It's kinda pricey but will last for years unlike regular duct tape, which isn't really for ducts. I've seen the tape at Menard's and Lowes. I used to work at a lumberyard back when I was in college and we sold a lot of windows to replace old Pella's and Anderson's. The brand we carried was Kolbe & Kolbe made in Wisconsin. They seemed to be made better IMHO and cost about the same. This pic shows the areas you need to look into.

http://www.energystar.gov/ia/home_improvement/images/house-leaks-with-text-800.jpg

 

[csp]

Is there insulation between the living area and the unheated basement?

I'm not sure why you wouldn't heat a basement if it's not isolated from the conditioned spaces.....

Around here all ductwork has to be sealed with either mastic or UL listed aluminum tape by code. I would think that in a new house it would be sealed, but it sure worth a look.

 

[logical]

Seriously?...63 degrees during the day? I don't even go that low at night.

 

[Garage_man1]

We are up here in MN, it is my understanding we have the toughest energy codes in the nation. All the homes we build are tested by third parties, per our suggestion, and all exceed code by more than 50% related to air leakage and energy consumption.

Ductwork here is not required to be sealed unless it is in an unconditioned space, such as unheated attic, exterior wall, and so on, being that your ductwork is in the basement, sealing it may help some with airflow, but you will not notice any difference in cost.

I would recommend getting a 3rd party energy audit, they use thermal cameras, blower door tests to test for home leakage, and also duct blaster tests to check ducts. I would make sure they do all the tests. Call your utility company and ask them to recommend someone. they should be able to help.

Most issues we see, even in new homes, and for you guys with older homes, the best way to save big time $$ and make your home much more energy efficient is to go up into your attic, find every penetration in it, and seal it with foam. If you have any recessed can lights or light boxes, we build boxes that are 12x12x12 out of foil faced foam, seal them together with expanding foam, and then foam them to the poly in the attic. this helps immensely. We always find these to leak whether they are airtight rated cans or not, we see it all the time in the thermal camera's.

If you are a do it yourselfer it will probably cost you no more then some time and a few hundred dollars, and if done right can save you 20-30% on energy depending on how tight your home is now. if you hire someone to do it, it should cost between 1000-1500 dollars or so.

Your windows are always a weak spot as well, but sounds like you invested well in those. window manufacturers have made us think that windows should always be replaced first, this is not necessarily the case.

If you picture a cross section of your home, and think about how it acts in the winter, there is low pressure in the basement, and high pressure in the upper floor ceilings, this causes the hot air to want to push out of the home at the attic, which is why you want to get that as tight as possible. windows are a huge investment and you will never see a return on your $$ like air sealing. It is not a huge money maker which is why you don't hear people marketing it like the huge window manufacturers do.

also, how is your basement insulated? is it insulated from the exterior? did they build walls on the inside and batt them? is there foam on the inside? or nothing?

you never want to insulate the floor between the basement and upper floors, this will keep heat from rising and make your floor cold. if your basement walls are not insulated, start with attic, then insulate basement walls with foil faced foam against block, you will need to glue and nail the foam, and tape seams and all penetrations.

also, are your rim joists insulated? (where the floor system is on the exterior) if they are insulated with batts i would remove all the bats and spray foam them. we have done tests on that difference alone in our homes and found a 40% increase in tightness in the whole house when we used spray foam rather than foil faced or batts in those areas.

 

[Falcon67]

Seriously?...63 degrees during the day? I don't even go that low at night.

We shoot for 67 or under daytime here. The wife likes it cold. Good thing because we have electric heat.

Things I need to do for this new house
- seal up the 4 can lights in the living room ceiling (can see light from them through the insulation in the attic)
- seal up wall penetrations
- place vents on the roof
- pipe the vent hood through the roof
- blow in more insulation

I can tell you that if you have aluminum frame windows, those frames will be a good source of cold. You have nearly twice our sq/ft, so I fell for ya. We have lots of white fluff in the attic here, but it's as thin as 6" in places and zero over the garage.

 

[nevets]

I do weatherization here in SC and when we insulate and attic we blow a minimum of 16 inches and recomend that you never let it settle below 12 inches before blowing more in. we insulate up to R 60 here and thats in the south. So i would figure that in the north you would definatly want to be about R60 amd 11-12 inches is no where close to enough. Here they dont put much of an emphasis on the wall insulation but may be a point of intrest where you are. You can always have your walls done with dense pack insulation but that doesnt always turn out pretty. I would definatly seal your duct work if there are any leaks in it what so ever and seal around the vents with mastic. It sounds like you have already had a Blower door test ran since you are mentioning air leakage but if they did not show you every little leak there is and try to get your leakage down to the minimum level which by our codes a 2900 sq ft house with 8 ft ceilings would be 2729.41 CFM50 if your higher than that you probably have some room to get some caulking or some other form of sealing done. If you have any questions ask. im pretty sure i have some literature with the standards for your part of the country around here somewhere. If you want me to look around let me know

 

[csp]

Ductwork here is not required to be sealed unless it is in an unconditioned space, such as unheated attic, exterior wall, and so on, being that your ductwork is in the basement, sealing it may help some with airflow, but you will not notice any difference in cost.

The OP stated that the basement is unheated.

you never want to insulate the floor between the basement and upper floors, this will keep heat from rising and make your floor cold.

If the basement is an unconditioned space you do want to insulate between them.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't heat the basement.

 

[bochnak]

In addition to what other have said, I recently insulated my basement with R-10 foam board, including the rim joists/sill plate, and sealed it all up with about 24 cans of great stuff.

Put your hand in 1 of the rim joist spaces, you'll feel the cold air!!!!

BTW, what is the eff of your furnace?

 

[jerry j]

I don't know where some of you are getting your R-Values from, but they seem way off..

Have been a contractor here in Michigan for 35+ years, dedicated to researching and installing the most efficient, cost effective insulation I could.. All feedback was absolutley positive....

Blown in Fiberglas has an R-Value of 2.2 per inch.. No More, No less...
Blown in Cellulose --------R-Value 3.7 per inch.. " " " "

Believe me, If it's properly installed, and not disturbed it Will Not Settle... The key word here is "properly"...... If a contractor wants to screw you, he will use the term "Fluffing"..
Using much more air to push the material through the hose.. Both with F.G. and Cellulose..

So, research the contractor and ask questions.. None of 'em will admit to "fluffing", but believe me, it's happening.....

Trust Who ? ? -- No One.................

Good Luck.. Jerry......

 

[Dragster Racer]

I forget the eff off the top of my...err.. head. We got a rebate from the gov for it though. So it qualified for one of them.
We aren't intentionally heating the basement. There is one exposed wall down there, and it is a great space.....that we don't really need. We mostly store stuff down there, and will probably get a train set up for the boy. But it pretty much stays high 50's down there anyhow, so that is about the temp of the house. With that little temp diff, I can't imagine that heat transfer is much of an issue. Wind is a huge issue here. We are at the highest part of our 23 acres, right in the middle. So no help from neighboring houses...just the barn. The ceilings up and down are 9', except the great room. We haven't had the pressure test done, and probably should to find all the areas needing attention. I haven't found any local folks that do that yet. The bathroom fans have flappers that seem to always flap and let puffs of cold air in when the wind is blowing hard. The ducts in the basement aren't sealed, but I haven't found any areas yet that seem to be leaking noticably.
I have a bunch of cans. What is the proper method of sealing that is ok for the bulbs?
Windows are vinyl clad.
The exposed basement wall is insulated like the rest of the house, but nothing on the other walls. I have a bunch of foam board ready to go on, but haven't gotten to that project yet. I wasn't thinking that would make that much difference, but I am often wrong.
I just saw the deal with the cans. That sounds doable, except in the great room, where I just hate the thought of working on that sloped area that far up. I don't know why that bothers me, but it seems to.
The responses are great, and I am still absorbing all of it. Keep it coming if there is more! Who would have thought that a new house would need any attention in this area?

 

[csp]

I just saw the deal with the cans. That sounds doable, except in the great room, where I just hate the thought of working on that sloped area that far up. I don't know why that bothers me, but it seems to.

You would be sealing them from inside the attic, not standing on a ladder in the great room.

 

[Dragster Racer]

You would be sealing them from inside the attic, not standing on a ladder in the great room.

The ladder I could stand. In the attic without much head room and searching for joists to stand on in the dark 16' in the air scares me.

 

[Garage_man1]

to find a 3rd party energy tester, check out www.resnet.us

hope that helps, might be able to find some things that your contractor should have done and make him fix them with a 3rd party test!