House Combo Meter / Main Breakers

[ToddW]

It appears my house mounted panel can't handle double lugging and doesn't have feed through lugs to feed my shop and the biggest CB is <100a.

I don't want to replace the house panel and have to update everything to code that would be insanely expensive since this house was built in the 80s and not much has changed.

I'm HOPING there's a way around this with a part I can't find by either not being common or knowing the proper name

- House doesn't utilize much power, would be sufficient with 100A but ideally would like to keep the 150a available, 200a ideally.

- Need to handle 3/0 wire to my shop for 200A via feed through lug or 200a breaker


I'm hoping for a scenario like this:

- Meter Panel + 200A Main Breaker
- Feed Through Lugs for garage (3/0 capacity)
- CB with 150-200A capacity to feed existing house main meter/panel combo wired from top to existing panel.


I think it's called a Meter + Main Breaker Combo and the main breakers can be used to feed the house panel and/or shop panel or use feed through lugs.

Suggestions?

Not 100% this would prevent having to update the house stuff since it would be a new meter but existing panel would be used.

 

[AntonLargiader]

Attached or detached shop?

 

[ToddW]

It's detached, I already have the 3/0 and the shop panel here.

 

[Bert_]

You probably could set a new meter and re-feed the existing stuff. Something like a meter/main with feed though lugs and like 4 or 8 spaces. Midwest makes stuff like that. It's probably not the most elegant solution though.

What brand is your current set up? There may be breakers/feed though lugs available that you are not aware of. Pics might help.

 

[ToddW]

What you've described Bert is what I was looking to do, it will add more **** on the wall, and as you said not be elegant but it would work.

New meter/main with feed through for shop panel and 4 or 8 spaces for home CB.

I just haven't found one that allows those 4 to 8 spaces to be filled with a 150A or > to feed the existing stuff, and why I posted to see what I couldn't find

Existing setup is GE branded from the mid/late 80s, combo unit.
NP266841-K

 

[Bert_]

Look up a GE TQDL21200 it's a 200A plug in breaker, takes four spaces. They also make a feed though lug that mounts the same way, I forget the part # though. You could use that style breaker in your existing if there's space or in a new panel.

 

[ToddW]

I do have empty space in my existing the problem (I think) Is that on the tag that has the Model # it also says "Max CB 90A" which makes me think I can't plug-in a 200A CB. Which, I thought was very very odd in itself since I can have 2x90A next to each other, or 3x for that matter. Maybe a 1980s limitation of technology / CB styles of those days?

If I can use this breaker you're talking about I'll be golden though!!

 

[H-D Dad]

Maybe this will work for you. Good luck. Wes

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It appears my house mounted panel can't handle double lugging and doesn't have feed through lugs to feed my shop and the biggest CB is <100a.

I don't want to replace the house panel and have to update everything to code that would be insanely expensive since this house was built in the 80s and not much has changed.

I'm HOPING there's a way around this with a part I can't find by either not being common or knowing the proper name

- House doesn't utilize much power, would be sufficient with 100A but ideally would like to keep the 150a available, 200a ideally.

- Need to handle 3/0 wire to my shop for 200A via feed through lug or 200a breaker


I'm hoping for a scenario like this:

- Meter Panel + 200A Main Breaker
- Feed Through Lugs for garage (3/0 capacity)
- CB with 150-200A capacity to feed existing house main meter/panel combo wired from top to existing panel.


I think it's called a Meter + Main Breaker Combo and the main breakers can be used to feed the house panel and/or shop panel or use feed through lugs.

Suggestions?

Not 100% this would prevent having to update the house stuff since it would be a new meter but existing panel would be used.

If u set a new main service panel(which will have a disconnect), this makes your current main service panel a sub, which opens a whole other can of worms and means a ton of work.

The current main panel would need to be converted to 4-wire which means either pulling a new 4th EGC wire if service entrance wire is in conduit OR replacing 3-wire service entrance wire, such as SEU, with a 4-wire assembled cable such as 4-wire SER.

This can be a major pain depending on accessibility in the walls and attic.

The other pain is that u will need to obviously add a ground bar to this panel as part of the conversion. This means unbonding/removing green bonding screw or strap AND moving any ground wires currently on neutral bar over to new added ground bar.

Oh and u will have to remove the GEC that goes to the electrode and either move it over to the new ground bar or remove it completely. It will then need to be ran to new main service panel.

Depending on the physical size and how messy the panel is, this could mean major work. While the power to the house is off (with wife and kids nagging over your shoulder about when the power will be back on)...

Your easier option is to do a subpanel off of the existing panel. This will be less work than a conversion.

What you've described Bert is what I was looking to do, it will add more **** on the wall, and as you said not be elegant but it would work.

New meter/main with feed through for shop panel and 4 or 8 spaces for home CB.

I just haven't found one that allows those 4 to 8 spaces to be filled with a 150A or > to feed the existing stuff, and why I posted to see what I couldn't find

Existing setup is GE branded from the mid/late 80s, combo unit.
NP266841-K

They are out there. Gotta look. Or call local electrical distributor and let them do the work of looking for you. They most likely can pick one for you right off the bat as they most likely deal with them throughout the week.

I do have empty space in my existing the problem (I think) Is that on the tag that has the Model # it also says "Max CB 90A" which makes me think I can't plug-in a 200A CB. Which, I thought was very very odd in itself since I can have 2x90A next to each other, or 3x for that matter. Maybe a 1980s limitation of technology / CB styles of those days?

If I can use this breaker you're talking about I'll be golden though!!

It has to do with the max current each stab can handle which in your case is 90a.

The breaker stab rating is different than the bus rating. (u mentioned multiple 90s next to each other)

Dont go above that or u could have major problems such as molten metal. Also the stab could expand as it gets hot, then contract when it cools. This can lead to a fused breaker.

Its a mess u dont want obviously.

There are reasons for those labels.

newer panels have higher stab ratings....

 

[ToddW]

They are out there. Gotta look. Or call local electrical distributor and let them do the work of looking for you. They most likely can pick one for you right off the bat as they most likely deal with them throughout the week.

So I can find a CB for 200A?

It has to do with the max current each stab can handle which in your case is 90a.

The breaker stab rating is different than the bus rating. (u mentioned multiple 90s next to each other)

Dont go above that or u could have major problems such as molten metal. Also the stab could expand as it gets hot, then contract when it cools. This can lead to a fused breaker.

Its a mess u dont want obviously.

There are reasons for those labels.

newer panels have higher stab ratings....

Don't go above 90A then why above say they can find me one for >90A?

Are you saying they have a breaker that will take up 4 spots that would do 180A safely or one that may take up 6 to do 200A?

Kind of confused by the reply of don't go over 90A and then call someone to find one that can go over 90A.

I'm thinking your saying don't go over 90A on a single stab but the bus can (obviously) handle >90A or it would only be a 90A rated panel, correct?

I'll call around tomorrow and see what I can find. This would obviously be the ideal situation even if I had to pay $300 for the sucker!

 

[ard]

I have a SqD 400A panel with integrated meter. Two 200A disconnects- one that goes to lugs, the other to an integrated 30 space panel.

200A/lugs could feed the shop.

The 200A panel can take a 100A breaker for the current home needs, plus any other subs or circuits you need.

Homeline breakers unfortunately, all other panels use QO type (I like the little windows...just a character flaw. )

 

[ToddW]

Current main panel is labeled:

NP266841-K (on bottom)
and
P-0210 (on top)

Which is technically the model # of the GE Panel?


And also Branch Breaker Max 90A using CU 70a using AL.

Another paper says replacement parts and has part #s so that may help narrow down the exact model panel.
- C/B Shield 343L628G52
- Meter Cove 343L638G3
- Pull Box Cover 343L640G3
- Load CTR. Interior 343L642G16
- Meter Base ASM 343L643G9

Google tells me:
Your search - meter base 343L643G9 - did not match any documents

ha ha

 

[ToddW]

I think these may be the model!!

TM2020MU Mod8 (Surface) <-- I think this is it!
TM2020MUF Mod8 (Semi-Flush)

Mine is surface mounted.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So I can find a CB for 200A?

Don't go above 90A then why above say they can find me one for >90A?

Are you saying they have a breaker that will take up 4 spots that would do 180A safely or one that may take up 6 to do 200A?

Kind of confused by the reply of don't go over 90A and then call someone to find one that can go over 90A.

I'm thinking your saying don't go over 90A on a single stab but the bus can (obviously) handle >90A or it would only be a 90A rated panel, correct?

I'll call around tomorrow and see what I can find. This would obviously be the ideal situation even if I had to pay $300 for the sucker!

u are really confusing things.

The reply about using a local distributor to find something was in reply to your comment that u havent been able to find a new 4-8 space meter main. has nothing to do with the 90a max breaker per your existing panel label. notice your words i highlighted in red.

go back and reread the specific quotes i was replying to.

If your panel says max 90a DONT go over that.

This means you wont find a 200a breaker for that existing panel. And u cant use any GE breaker. the breakers u use must be listed and labeled for use in that panel.

So your options are either:

*new main service/convert existing.

Or

*new subpanel off existing main which means moving a few circuits over to new subpanel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I think these may be the model!!

TM2020MU Mod8 (Surface) <-- I think this is it!
TM2020MUF Mod8 (Semi-Flush)

Mine is surface mounted.

I cant find that exact panel.

But if its a meter main it would work.

However, u will need to do what i said above about converting existing main panel.

 

[ToddW]

Ok, so back to the same conclusion as before... no hope to do a sub panel in the shop off the existing setup that is >90A.

If I do a temp setup of a 90A CB with smaller wire (since I can't fit 3/0) nippled to a 200a disconnect that I can connect 3/0 too there's no reason to go with a fused disconnect, right? The 90A CB is the protection.

That sounds like the cheapest, get off and running and then re-do stuff in a few months when I feel like spending a lot more money changing things up no matter which way I end up going off the existing main.


Since this is a side by side setup like:
Main CB--| Lugs Up Top
Meter----| House CBs

Ideally I'd want to find a 5-8 panel that I could add above (or to the left) of the existing main/meter to connect to the existing main, and then install a 150A CB for the house/current panel and use feed-through lugs for the shop. This doesn't sound too expensive, but probably not cheap either.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

No u cant do a breaker above 90a. So thats what u get.

U can use reducer pins or kearneys or split bolts with smaller wire to adapt the 3/0 to fit in smaller breaker lugs.

The most expensive thing to do in terms of time and materials is the conversion of the current main panel since it will need to be 4-wire.

Remind me what your loads are again in the shop.

 

[ToddW]

I can't do above 90A on the existing panel, that's the entire point of this thread to find a panel I could >90A and go off the existing main while retaining existing panel for house. I thought we established this already?

Well, I'm most def. not running 90A forever so I'll be hiring someone to give estimates.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I can't do above 90A on the existing panel, that's the entire point of this thread to find a panel I could >90A and go off the existing main while retaining existing panel for house. I thought we established this already?

Well, I'm most def. not running 90A forever so I'll be hiring someone to give estimates.

Ok maybe im confused.

Clarify something for me.

Is the house panel the current main service panel? All this time i thought it was.

What do u have on the outside? Just a meter pan/no disconnect?