House heat pump issues

[cw_racefan]

Ok, so this isn't totally garage related, other than I may go stay in my heated garage

Have a leaking evaporator on a 10yr old builder grade heat pump. 2 of 3 contractors say to replace the entire unit because of the r22 phase out (still not sold on replacement yet). Only have one quote so far, but can anyone comment on this quote, as it seems ridiculously high to me:

Bryant 265ANA042 3.5 ton with FE4ANB005 variable speed air handler.
15.5 SEER, 8.5 HSPF, 12.5 EER, 3.72 COP.
Includes 20kw electric heat package (we're all electric, no access to gas), Evolution user interface, UV air purifier, 2 yrs service contract, etc. Using most original ductwork and lineset.
Total $11,512 in the DC/Baltimore area

I was expecting more in the maybe 7-8k range, or am I living in a dream land?

Thoughts?

Craig

 

[rickairmedic]

Craig I will say yes they are phasing out R22 equipment but with that said . They are still making R22 and are also making direct drop in replacements for R22 as we speak so dont let the phase out of equipment make your decision . I will add you need to find a goodman dealer in your area ( Bryant is a division of Carrier and therefore plated with gold ) . I have sold Carrier and I have sold Trane in the past . I wouldnt sell either of them today as they are not the high end equipment they used to be ( just the high end price ) . Goodman household units come with 10 years parts and labor warranties today ( which no bryant dealer is going to offer ) . You can find a local goodman dealer by going to their website and looking for one . Heres their website the dealer locator is in the upper right corner of the screen.


http://www.goodmanmfg.com/



I would sell that system in my area in the $6000.00 - $7000.00 range .



Rick

 

[pseudorealityx]

My first question would be... why are they matching a 3.5 ton heat pump with a 4 ton fan coil unit?

Another thing would be that there are a lot of tax credits out there. Staying with a R22 unit is going to keep you out of those credits/rebates.

Also, the FE4 Carrier air handler has a 10 year warranty on parts. Also 10 year on the optional tin coated cooling coil. Otherwise, 5 year on the coil.

 

[rickairmedic]

My first question would be... why are they matching a 3.5 ton heat pump with a 4 ton fan coil unit?

Another thing would be that there are a lot of tax credits out there. Staying with a R22 unit is going to keep you out of those credits/rebates.

Also, the FE4 Carrier air handler has a 10 year warranty on parts. Also 10 year on the optional tin coated cooling coil. Otherwise, 5 year on the coil.

They dont have a 3.5 ton air handler thats why and yes they have 10 year part warranties but not " Parta & LABOR " . The Labor is the expensive part when you have to get it fixed although you are right on one part by going with a 410A system you can get a high enough SEER rating to qualify for the Obama bucks . Personally I would replace the Evap coil and wait till the compressor craps out to replace the whole system . The system in question is only 10 years old which means the compressor should have roughly 5-8 years of life left on it so theres my 2 pesos worth . I run into this alot though ( salesmen ) wanting to sell you an entire new system ( bigger commision check ) rather than just fixing the problem .


Rick

 

[chevelle67]

rick is right on with this one!

 

[cw_racefan]

Funny you mention Goodman, that's the 10yr old unit that needs a new evaporator already. That being said, I had another dealer out today who said that Goodman has come a long way, and that he gets less callbacks on them than on Trane (he installs both). Here's his quotes:

1) Trane T4TWX5042A1000A
Trane T4TEE3F65B1000B
10KW heat strip, thermostat, ductwork mods (unit is bigger than my
current one)
total $7325 before credits/rebates (10 yr compressor and parts)

2) Goodman 15 SEER not sure on model, he had a typo and is getting me a
new quote, but the price is correct. Similar specs but no ductwork
required
total $5689 before credits/rebates (lifetime compressor, 10yr parts)

In addition to the tax credit, there's a $400 rebate from the local POCO here, so that's $1900 off the cost of either.

These are bbviously much closer to what I expected. My only question is whether Goodman has really had gotten better, since I still see alot of Goodman bashing on the web. Considering my current Goodman is at 10yrs and needing $$$, its a tough call. Also, is the parts and labor something new? Contractor lists it as parts, and Goodman website does too.

Thoughts?

Oh, and I do have a guy checking on the evaporator coil for my current unit. Haven't seen a price on that yet.

Craig

 

[pseudorealityx]

They dont have a 3.5 ton air handler thats why and yes they have 10 year part warranties but not " Parta & LABOR " . The Labor is the expensive part when you have to get it fixed although you are right on one part by going with a 410A system you can get a high enough SEER rating to qualify for the Obama bucks . Personally I would replace the Evap coil and wait till the compressor craps out to replace the whole system . The system in question is only 10 years old which means the compressor should have roughly 5-8 years of life left on it so theres my 2 pesos worth . I run into this alot though ( salesmen ) wanting to sell you an entire new system ( bigger commision check ) rather than just fixing the problem .


Rick

Yes, they do have a FE4 3.5 ton fan coil unit. I was looking at it when I posted.

Here is the catalog in PDF form:
http://www.docs.hvacpartners.com/idc/groups/public/documents/techlit/fe4a-06pd.pdf

The tax credit money, I'd probably do the whole thing now. You're talking at least 30% off the total cost, and you'll pickup the energy savings over the next 8 years, compared to what the old system is doing right now.

Also, the numbers don't match up. 8.5 HSPF but a 3.72 COP? 12.5 EER but only 15.5 SEER? Something's fishy, or maybe you've got a typo.

 

[pseudorealityx]

Another question...

And do you "need" the UV filtration?

A 2 speed compressor is likely more cost effective than a variable speed fan coil as well.

 

[pseudorealityx]

Funny you mention Goodman, that's the 10yr old unit that needs a new evaporator already. That being said, I had another dealer out today who said that Goodman has come a long way, and that he gets less callbacks on them than on Trane (he installs both). Here's his quotes:

1) Trane T4TWX5042A1000A
Trane T4TEE3F65B1000B
10KW heat strip, thermostat, ductwork mods (unit is bigger than my
current one)
total $7325 before credits/rebates (10 yr compressor and parts)

2) Goodman 15 SEER not sure on model, he had a typo and is getting me a
new quote, but the price is correct. Similar specs but no ductwork
required
total $5689 before credits/rebates (lifetime compressor, 10yr parts)

In addition to the tax credit, there's a $400 rebate from the local POCO here, so that's $1900 off the cost of either.

These are bbviously much closer to what I expected. My only question is whether Goodman has really had gotten better, since I still see alot of Goodman bashing on the web. Considering my current Goodman is at 10yrs and needing $$$, its a tough call. Also, is the parts and labor something new? Contractor lists it as parts, and Goodman website does too.

Thoughts?

Oh, and I do have a guy checking on the evaporator coil for my current unit. Haven't seen a price on that yet.

Craig

10KW heater vs. the 20KW heater from the last guy? Someone is wrong. I'm thinking the 20 KW is the right number. You're looking at a delta T of near 40 degrees, which makes 20KW the right ballpark. The 10 KW isn't going to handle 1600 cfm.

 

[rickairmedic]

Personally between the Trane and Goodman I would go with the Goodman . Trane's compressors are not the same as they were years ago and do not last . I have had more bad Trane compressors since 1999-2000 than any other unit out there and although the compressor may be warranted " The Labor " isnt and currently my going rate to change out a bad compressor is $300-$500 with Tranes being closer to $300 simply due to ease of replacement . Goodman has 22% of the current market share as where Trane has 7.5 % . I will only put in Goodman today and I own my company . To give you my reason for using Goodman the warranty is better ( good for the consumer ) and I have had less call backs on Goodman equipment ( every callback costs me money ) . I do agree that right now is a good time to consider replacement ( only due to the Obama bucks being offered at 30% up to $1500.00 in rebates ) . I also agree you are between a 15 & 20KW heater a 10KW is to small for those systems and also for your area . Also Carrier does not have a 3.5 Ton specific air handler they are listed as 2-3.5 tons or 2.5-4 tons or 3-5 Tons on that PDF not 3.5 Tons specific . You do not need UV filtration ( unless you have people in your home with allergy issues on medications ) then I highly recomend a Sanuvox unit not a single straight bulb unit which is only desighned as a surface treatment unit and not an air treatment unit . I by the way used to be one of the guys that refered to Goodman as ( Junkatrol ) Goodman and Janitrol were one in the same at that time but Goodman has vastly improved their equipment while most of the BIG names " Trane, Carrier " have actually dropped in quality over the years . The parts & Labor isnt really new and is available to any goodman dealer for $99 per piece of equipment or $49 for an entire qualifying system currently tell your dealer to check with his distributor on that as I am sure the Goodman system you are looking at qualifies for the $49 system 10 year parts and labor warranty.


Rick

 

[cw_racefan]

As far as the 10KW, I think that's what is on my current one, though not sure. Someone on another site said 20kw was too much. I'll check with him on the 20 vs 10.

Rick, sounds like your experience with callbacks is the same as the guy that gave me the quote. Nice to hear he wasn't just BSing me.


Thanks for all the info!

 

[rickairmedic]

One more thing as far as Goodman bashing the guys bashing Goodman are selling higher priced equipment IE Trane and Carrier ( the more the equipment costs the higher the markup and bottom line " profit " ) . The main reason Goodman is so much cheaper than the others is they dont spend $100 Mil a year making sure you remember their name feel free to check that on goodmans website. They have never spent a dime on advertising and I am sure never will ( they also dont charge their dealers fees in order to sell their equipment ) . All the BIG name companies actually require their " Dealers " to pay for the priveledge of being a " dealer " . I know my Local Carrier distributor charges $6000 a year to be a dealer as I was one once . I am not sure what Trane charges their dealers today as I have not sold Trane since they changed their compressors in 1999-2000.


Rick

 

[pseudorealityx]

Did you read the PDF? The FE4ANB004 goes upto 3.5 tons. The reason for the range is because we're referring to variable speed units.

Rick, you own your own company. You're saying the larger FE4ANB005 is cheaper than the B004? Because otherwise, the B004 has enough capacity to handle the 3.5 ton heat pump.

 

[rickairmedic]

Did you read the PDF? The FE4ANB004 goes upto 3.5 tons. The reason for the range is because we're referring to variable speed units.

Rick, you own your own company. You're saying the larger FE4ANB005 is cheaper than the B004? Because otherwise, the B004 has enough capacity to handle the 3.5 ton heat pump.

Yes I did look at the PDF and I actually still have an account with HVAC partners . What I was saying as can be seen here is they dont have a " 3.5 Ton " Specific unit they have units that will work for a range of Tonages .


MODEL NUMBER NOMENCLATURE
1 2 3 4 5 6 7--9 10--12
F E 4 A N B 002 000
Product Type Position Series Electrical Cabinet/
Insulation
Capacity Heating
Size
F = Fan Coil E = Infinityt, VS
Puronr Refrigerant
4 = Multipoise
5 =Upflow/
Downflow
A N = 208/230v,
1ph--60Hz
B = Modular
F = Single piece
002 = 18--36,000
003 = 24--42,000
004 = 24--42,000
005 = 30--48,000
006 = 36--60,000
T00= ArmorCoatt
000 = No Heat


I do agree however that the 005 unit is not needed for 3.5 tons and that yes the 004 unit does go up to 3.5 tons.



Rick

 

[pseudorealityx]

They're variable speed units. All they're saying is that the tonnage range depends on the fan speed, and what kind of FPM you can get across the coils.

 

[Rolling_Thunder]

Give this company a call they did mine a few months ago replaced mine with a Goodman unit with 10yr Parts & Labor and 2 yr free service. I live in Calvert County but I think they handle a large area!

http://www.amfheatingandairconditioning.com/

 

[pseudorealityx]

Give this company a call they did mine a few months ago replaced mine with a Goodman unit with 10yr Parts & Labor and 2 yr free service. I live in Calvert County but I think they handle a large area!

http://www.amfheatingandairconditioning.com/

That's gotta be one of the worst websites I've seen in awhile. No working links, no useful information, and a picture of a tarted up PT Cruiser.

 

[cw_racefan]

I agree on the bad website! What's up with the financial drabble and latin or whatever on the right?? Maybe it got hijacked??

 

[Rolling_Thunder]

That's gotta be one of the worst websites I've seen in awhile. No working links, no useful information, and a picture of a tarted up PT Cruiser.

Dang that is weird! Didnt used to be that way! I'll call him tomorrow and have him check the Site. Everything used to work! And on my new system he did a good job

 

[Hamyrenz]

I recently bought my new dual heat pump. It has a lot of good features than the typically used kind of heat pump. I also purchased it on a cheaper price. Maybe it is a promo rate.


________________________
Thermostat

 

[7echo]

I think the 004 is a smaller(shorter) box, an 'A' coil, maybe?

Rick and pseudo are making good points. I researched a lot before deciding on a VS fan and 2 speed outdoor unit. Also, corrected a lot of duct issues at the same time. More expensive, but it was the right thing for me. Old unit could not get the humidity below 65% +/-, new set up can run it down to 45%.