House standby generator.

[mjeff87]

If you ask anyone with these home stand by generators from generac, Briggs or other cheap brand you should also ask how many hours on the unit. I bet prob not to much.

As I mentioned earlier, 167+ hours on mine and counting....it has never missed a beat. I had an analog hour meter installed on it so I could track cumulative hours.

I love the "facts" from all the Internet experts!!

Another Generac 20KW unit. 5 years plus with zero problems. What you will find is Generac is a better value so there are WAY more of them out there!

Try to listen to people who ACTUALLY have a Generac.
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.
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exactly

i have a generac cause it came with the house. when it breaks I will go onan or kohler. generacs will eventually let you down. sooner than later.

Mine's been running steadily now for over 8 years. Keep it clean and serviced annually, like anything else. Mine will stay with the house when we sell it to add value, and another will be installed in whatever we decide to move into/build next.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Are there any options for larger (i.e. larger than portable) units that use diesel instead of LP or natural gas? We don't have gas service at our house, and have nowhere to put a large propane tank.

There are diesel units available but they tend to be large (>10kW) and more expensive. And you will still need a large tank.

I suggest you look into purchasing an LP tank and burying it.

What really make a "whole house" generator expensive is that it has to be sized to handle the maximum load of the house (or the transfer switch must have "load shedding" capability like dropping A/C or water heater).

Most houses can get by on a small (3kW) portable unit connect to your breaker box via a generator interlock and inlet connector. No, it will not run any 240 appliances, but it will run everything else INCLUDING a 120V window A/C ! HUGE COST SAVINGS !!

 

[theoldwizard1]

If you ask anyone with these home stand by generators from generac, Briggs or other cheap brand you should also ask how many hours on the unit. I bet prob not to much.

Likely a true statement, but these things were never intended to run tens of thousands of hours and the vast majority of customers are happy.

 

[mjeff87]

Most houses can get by on a small (3kW) portable unit connect to your breaker box via a generator interlock and inlet connector. No, it will not run any 240 appliances, but it will run everything else INCLUDING a 120V window A/C ! HUGE COST SAVINGS !!

This is a very good point.

Prior to the 20K, I used (and still have) a portable gasoline unit. My decision to go whole house was based on my situation....generally speaking when there is a mass power outage here it's due to some sort of emergency. My job requires me to be at work to support operations, sometimes for days in a row and I'm not at home. I went with a whole house as a convenience and safety factor for my wife, who IS at home. I can focus on my work mission while not having to worry about her safety and security. YMMV, though. To me, the cost was worth it.

 

[dan360]

As I mentioned earlier, 167+ hours on mine and counting....it has never missed a beat. I had an analog hour meter installed on it so I could track cumulative hours.



exactly



Mine's been running steadily now for over 8 years. Keep it clean and serviced annually, like anything else. Mine will stay with the house when we sell it to add value, and another will be installed in whatever we decide to move into/build next.

167 hrs in 8 years is less than 2 oil changes by usage @ 100hr mfr recommended intervals. To keep backup units in tip top operating condition over the long term its recommended to give them a run test approx once per month for about 30-60 minutes. In 8 years that would be 48-96 hours of that total being strictly maint runs. Unless it isn’t set up to do that. At any rate, not a great sample for generator performance metrics BUT if you’re a happy owner, then cool.

 

[mjeff87]

It self-exercises for 12 minutes a week, unless it's running under load for an outage. I'd estimate I've got about 80 hours of run time under test/no load with the rest under load during outages. I change the oil/filter, air filter, and plugs every year regardless of hours (I have a service contract with the original installer).

 

[dan360]

It self-exercises for 12 minutes a week, unless it's running under load for an outage. I'd estimate I've got about 80 hours of run time under test/no load with the rest under load during outages. I change the oil/filter, air filter, and plugs every year regardless of hours (I have a service contract with the original installer).

That 12 minute Generac run test is barely enough to warm the oil up enough to burn off all the moisture. Now they’ve gone to 5 minutes. Nuts. They should be ran under load as opposed to no load. A guy will find that 30-60 min of load operation per month with a cool down cycle is sufficient to keep moisture at bay. The oil will last longer as well. Hopefully I’m not coming across as a D. Open dialogue is awesome; best part of the internet.

Trying to summarize your situation for the OPs general curiosity about cost.

$9,000 initial investment
10 years
167 hours of operation
80 (ish) hours of run tests
87 (ish) hours of load

$103.45 per hr in 2008/9 money. (Not including maintenance, unless contractually built into the purchase price)

Is that amount necessary for about 1/3 of a day per year? Could I get by with a Honda EU portable? Things to think about.

 

[jeepxj]

your forgetting the wife factor. does she want to lug out the portable, hook it all up, get things going again?

do you want to deal with that?

for 103 an hr i'd pay for the whole house on auto.

 

[mm08822]

It’s more than convenience for some. Consequential damages can be far reaching. Lose your sump pump and there goes your finished basement – rip up carpet and padding, base molding lower wall sections of sheetrock and insulation, doors. Also need to do all that quickly so mold doesn’t enter into the mix.

For others it could be physical limitations.

Case by case evaluation and can change over time.

 

[Higgins]

At this point in my life, I don't want to worry what needs to be done when we loose electricity. Either short term or for extended periods of time!!!

Wether I'm at home, or away from home, I don't want to have to worry what has to be done next. Don't really care what the cost is! It's called piece of mind!!

 

[mjeff87]

^^^yes, yes and yes.

I totally agree there's more economical solutions out there. But after living through 2 hurricanes here (Isabel in 02 and Irene in 05) we realized we needed a solution to extended power outages. I might be here 3-4 hours over the course of 3-4 days in an emergency and the last thing I need to worry about is the safety and security of my wife and our cats (we don't have kids, lol). When hurricane Florence or Michael (can't remember which one it was) blew thru here a few weeks ago, it luckily hit us on a Thursday night while we were on vacation. Flying back home from Orlando as a matter of fact. I was worried our flight wouldn't make it into RIC but we landed safely about 2 hours before all hell broke loose here. I was able to stay home from Friday thru Sunday, when we finally got power back, but that was a rarity. Normally I would have been living at my work with the wife hone here by herself. With me here, we could have managed with my portable ok, but I let the 20k do its thing. I ended up lending my portable to my new neighbor who just moved in here next to me so they could have some power until utility was restored Sunday afternoon.

 

[dan360]

All very valid, in my application I’m on a private well so no power is no water. Plus other pumps, etc.

Explaining to a diva and her 12 yr old mini me that there’s no water period, much less hot water for their bubble baths and 2 hr showers, is a losing proposition no matter how much I give into on the Nordstrom card.

And heaven forbid the ice maker on the fridge stops working.

That all said I installed mine 8 years ago with 48 hrs and it is now at 1,032. ~500 of those were continuous operation during an underground utility rework.

Air filter is still good to go at least.

 

[vette-kid]

your forgetting the wife factor. does she want to lug out the portable, hook it all up, get things going again?

do you want to deal with that?

for 103 an hr i'd pay for the whole house on auto.

Truth! And my biggest concern. A long term outage while I'm away, leaving my wife with three kids.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

 

[Bretny]

Im glad the "test run" makes everyone feel good that there generator work. The fact is its only testing half the system, the engine. For a generator to work it needs to produce power. Unless you have an auto transfer switch then its just a feel good thing hearing it run.

Also 167hrs is nothing. I have a lawn mower with 600hrs.

I test my diesel generator hooked to my house every time we change the clocks. Oil change once a year. Its got 220hrs and no thats not alot of hours to me.

 

[jeepxj]

there are two kinds of test runs. no load and full load. so my "test run" is more than just a feel good

 

[yeldogt]

Do they publish "Duty Service" for homeowner grade units? I remember talking to a guy on a flight to Asia years ago -- typical cheap push lawnmower engine was rated for 100 hours. They figured 10 mowings a year at 1hr = 10 years.

The Kohler unit at my beach house was as much as the the new one for my place in PA -- that's pushing 20 years ago .. actually 18 and it's about 1/2 the size. Typical life situation --- the power company ran a new line to the island the year after the place was built and we never lose power.

 

[reader2580]

My auto transfer switch can transfer power every time the generator is exercised, but I don’t want to have a power blip every week.

 

[slow]

Do they purchase "Duty Service" for homeowner grade units? I remember talking to a guy on a flight to Asia years ago -- typical cheap push lawnmower engine was rated for 100 hours. They figured 10 mowings a year at 1hr = 10 years.

The Kohler unit at my beach house was as much as the the new one for my place in PA -- that's pushing 20 years ago .. actually 18 and it's about 1/2 the size. Typical life situation --- the power company ran a new line to the island the year after the place was built and we never lose power.

Most of the Generac are pressurized oil system, external oil filters. Not a splash lubnricated vertical shaft lawnmower engine. They are however, not an engine that i would purchase for a 15k hours of use in a 10 year period either.

 

[JDGolden]

Generac has not scheduled an in come estimate yet. Going to contact Kohler.

 

[dan360]

Im glad the "test run" makes everyone feel good that there generator work. The fact is its only testing half the system, the engine. For a generator to work it needs to produce power. Unless you have an auto transfer switch then its just a feel good thing hearing it run.

Also 167hrs is nothing. I have a lawn mower with 600hrs.

I test my diesel generator hooked to my house every time we change the clocks. Oil change once a year. Its got 220hrs and no thats not alot of hours to me.

Yessir without a load it’s doing more harm than good in all actuality.

 

[vette-kid]

Im glad the "test run" makes everyone feel good that there generator work. The fact is its only testing half the system, the engine. For a generator to work it needs to produce power. Unless you have an auto transfer switch then its just a feel good thing hearing it run.

Also 167hrs is nothing. I have a lawn mower with 600hrs.

I test my diesel generator hooked to my house every time we change the clocks. Oil change once a year. Its got 220hrs and no thats not alot of hours to me.

Mine was on a switch and the house was running on generator power during the test period. I'm pretty sure it ran for 30 minutes. But then it was intake back in 2001 or so. Maybe they changed?

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

 

[mm08822]

Older units may have operated the xfer sw, but newer generac units in the 22Kw and below range (post 2010 that I am aware of ) do not.
Only the engine runs, for either 5 or 12 mins depending upon the unit and settings. There is also “quiet mode” which allows some to run the gen at 1950 or 2400 rpm. The xfer sw never operates during these tests. Exercise frequency can also be selected.

If you want to cycle/test the entire Generac system – gen + xfer sw + connected load, you need to shut-off the utility power to simulate grid outage - simply by turning off 1 cb.

Now you will see if backup power happens or not. This methods checks it all: fuel supply, battery, engine, gen, xfer switch and whether the gen can deliver under load. Obviously, you need to plan connect enough load during this test. Lights and a few computers aren’t a challenge. Turn on the ac, electric dryer, and/or electric range, electric furnace, etc to get up towards full output. Let it run for 30 mins like this.

Doing so will give you the answer you really want and let the engine oil finally get hot enough to vaporize the moisture in the oil.

 

[vette-kid]

There way the tech described it to me that's what the test actually did. Interrupted the power causing the generator to take over just like it would real world. Interesting that they no longer work that way. If we get a new one I will have to inquire about that.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

 

[mm08822]

There way the tech described it to me that's what the test actually did. Interrupted the power causing the generator to take over just like it would real world. Interesting that they no longer work that way. If we get a new one I will have to inquire about that.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

You will still have to put enough load on the gen and run it past 12 mins to burn off all the moisture.

Once you get the model #, go online for the manual.

 

[vette-kid]

You will still have to put enough load on the gen and run it past 12 mins to burn off all the moisture.

Once you get the model #, go online for the manual.

It was at the old house, we no longer have it. But it was running whatever was on in the house and pretty sure it ran for 30 minutes.

Like o said we don't have that anymore so it's kind of irrelevant other than the fact the newer ones don't do that at least by default. We would like to do a standby again so it's something to look for .

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[jeepxj]

There way the tech described it to me that's what the test actually did. Interrupted the power causing the generator to take over just like it would real world. Interesting that they no longer work that way. If we get a new one I will have to inquire about that.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

just turn off your main breaker. the generator should treat it like a power failure and pick up the load.

 

[trashmanssd]

How did they come up with 50 kw?? Do you have the details of the load calcs?

What kinda electric 10,000 sq ft mansion with doors that don't close do you live in?

I have a 3,700 sqft house with electric oven, dryer, 3 AC units, a pool pump and a buttload of plug in ****. When everything is off at my house its pulling 900 watts.

Here is a random hot day in august. I regularly pull over a 100kwh per day.

https://imgur.com/gallery/fGicpm8

Thats why I want to talk to the guy again (just have not made time). I do have a lot of stuff in the house but my electric bill runs in the 300 hundreds and we dont actually use squat. But my main panel has 830 amps worth of breakers (880 if you count the one thats off but still in the panel from the hot tub we removed when we bought the house), but most of it is laods that would not run at the same time. 90 amp sub panel for my detached garage, 50 amp for welder in attached garage, 100 amp for sub panel for heated gutters, 100 amp sub panel for second floor that we do not use its closed off by a door, 100 sub panel for my man cave (independent breakers for all the plugs on the front wall of theater room for amps and subs), 50 amp stove, 40 or 50 amp a/c. Like I said a lot going on but are real world draw at any one time never goes over 100 amps and thats with out any effort to conserve like I would do in an outage. Like few others said it may be code I do live in the peoples republic of Massachusetts, they love telling you what to do here. If I can either trim it back to a 30 kw diesel for everything or have it rewired to run one sub panel and move the circuits I need to run on a 20kw and get the price under 25kw i will do it. I just worry quote is 32.5 which means it will end up t 34-35 because of well this or that came up and it should be fixed or whatever stuff almost never comes in at the qoute.

 

[mm08822]

At these prices, this is where load shedding quickly pays off. Load shedding is needed b/c of the automatic xfer switch.

You really need to pick apart the load calcs and quickly apply 50A or 100A pre-packaged contactors where the biggest non-essential loads can be dropped.
(e.g.- You really need heated gutters while on gen?)

Forget the concept of *** amps worth of breakers installed. Doesn't mean that is the actual connected load. Some loads are mutually exclusive - a/c doesn't run when heat is on, a 100A sub-panel might pull a measly 5A, etc. You plan on welding while on the gen?

If your installer isn't using nameplate values to determine connected loads and rationalizing a practical worst case load, get rid of him.

 

[yeldogt]

When I was looking at units -- fuel use was a big issue since it had to be Propane. My lot limited me to a single 1k buried tank w/ furnace/dryer/stove/boiler/studio. Looking over all the units last year the literature on the Cummins was interesting because it discussed a fuel saving test cycle ... it was also newly redesigned.

The house located in a rural village powered by a single line -- Village drops power all the time. Summer it's anywhere from 15min to a few hours ... but the winter ice storms can knock it out for much longer and obviously no electric in the winter is much more of a problem. A few years back we had neighbors who ran out of propane w/o the ability to get a delivery. Jumping up to the larger water cooled generators sounds great until you see the fuel use -- just the test cycle can eat through a sizable about of fuel over many months.

One of my calls to Cummins got me transferred incorrectly to an engineer who ended up being a wealth of knowledge -- generally and specifically regarding the new units. Cummins designed the new home units to be leaders in energy efficiency -- they wanted them to work in lower temps w/o cold start kits and to be compact/ quiet and have fewer placement restrictions along with high amounts of controls -- including inside. He also warned me about the size of the transfer switch case .. how to load shed.

The Cummins units will do test cycles using the engines starter motor vs actually starting up the engine. The goal being to check the systems and keep the alternator clean ... he was saying there is really no need for the engine to run and its actually not all that great as once it does fire up it needs to run longer then most do anyway .... especially in the winter. The need for actual engine start depends on the climate. It was his contention that modern engines are going to start -- especially running NG or Propane. Better manufacturing, synthetic oils allow for colder starting w/ out heating the engine or the battery .. the Cummins units do come with heaters for the fuel intake/carb ..... there are two. Some units need cold kits bellow 32 -- Cummins says 0. They (cold start kits) can use a sizable about of power.

He also told me that while is was common years ago for many homeowner units to be a combination of parts .. today the big players all have purpose built engines and alternators/ controls for their units.

Wish I had asked him about "duty cycle". Would have liked to understand what kinds of hours these units are built for ... some of the manufactures make more of an issue of the "temp power" in the literature.

 

[theoldwizard1]

A few years back we had neighbors who ran out of propane w/o the ability to get a delivery.

I hope he has a spare 100 lb bottle stashed somewhere and the ability to quickly change over ! I know I would.

 

[yeldogt]

I hope he has a spare 100 lb bottle stashed somewhere and the ability to quickly change over ! I know I would.

First -- 100lb tank is under 20lb filled.

Second: 25k generator attached to a 1.5 million weekend house -- the towns demographic is poor for dragging a spare tank through the ice.

Third: Often empty (the house) ...

After the storm it seems the general recommendation is to install a separate 500g tank -- filled this will give 400g -- even with testing usage over a few months -- the tank will still have enough for 4 full days of running.

The storm that caused the most problem was late February after a very cold winter w/ some short outages. People who were do for deliveries -- got screwed. The ice was so bad most roads were closed for two days and no way to get into properties after that.

 

[Platonic Solid]

... I do have a lot of stuff in the house but my electric bill runs in the 300 hundreds and we dont actually use squat. ...

My electric bill used to be in $300 range too, until I replaced the electric water heater with a propane rinnai on-demand unit. Electric bill instantly dropped to the $100 range. I installed the whole house 20Kw Generac generator, rinnai water heater, new propane furnace and 500 Gallon UG tank all at the same time. I use about 850 Gallons of propane per year, which includes an average annual generator use of ~48 hours.

 

[aunsafe2015]

My electric bill used to be in $300 range too, until I replaced the electric water heater with a propane rinnai on-demand unit. Electric bill instantly dropped to the $100 range. I installed the whole house 20Kw Generac generator, rinnai water heater, new propane furnace and 500 Gallon UG tank all at the same time. I use about 850 Gallons of propane per year, which includes an average annual generator use of ~48 hours.

Was the electric water heater a tank or tankless?

 

[Platonic Solid]

Was the electric water heater a tank or tankless?

Standard old school GE tank.

 

[aunsafe2015]

Standard old school GE tank.

Wow I had no idea those things drank so much power.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Wow I had no idea those things drank so much power.

When I replaced the GE tank, it was only 3 years old. I guess heating water 24-7 is pretty wasteful. Only downfall with tankless on-demand is it takes longer to get hot water at the tap, but that's an acceptable sacrifice for $200/mth savings. On the up side, I never run out of hot water.

 

[yeldogt]

Wow I had no idea those things drank so much power.

Typically, tank style 40g electric will be at least 3 times the cost using electric ... if you are in expensive electric areas like I am with .20 rates .. it's easy 5 times.

Tank in a cold area or using lots of water --- more savings.

Gas dryers are much cheaper to operate as well vs electric.

 

[intimidator782]

As a certified Generator Service Field Tech, I will say this. Generac is typically the lowest priced model of the residential series generators. Some of them are great units and some of them are not worth giving away. Generac has pretty poor quality control and most of the parts are supplied by the lowest bidder. In my opinion i would stay away from Generac. I would also be very careful on the big box store "deals". Some of the gimmicks they use is "free delivery", "free installation", "extended warranty". Free delivery could mean dropping this 1000 pound machine in your driveway and leaving you no way to move it. Free installation could mean only X amount of wire, gas piping, ETC, included and after that your paying for the rest. Also keep in mind the box stores usually opt for lower end installation companies to do these installs. I can tell hundreds of horror stories of how these things have been "installed". I would look for a onan/cummins or a kohler unit and stay away from generac and briggs/GE models. I would also highly reccomend purchasing through a reputable certified dealer generator company and having them do a turnkey installation. A lot of the electric companies out there claiming to do these installs know nothing about servicing the units and if there is a problem with it you may be out of luck with warranty if they didnt register it properly. Long story short, do your homework, make sure you know who you are buying from and if they are certified installers/servicing dealers. A generator is a big investment and can either make you very happy to have or a major headache if its broken/not installed correctly.

 

[Bretny]

As a certified Generator Service Field Tech, I will say this. Generac is typically the lowest priced model of the residential series generators. Some of them are great units and some of them are not worth giving away. Generac has pretty poor quality control and most of the parts are supplied by the lowest bidder. In my opinion i would stay away from Generac. I would also be very careful on the big box store "deals". Some of the gimmicks they use is "free delivery", "free installation", "extended warranty". Free delivery could mean dropping this 1000 pound machine in your driveway and leaving you no way to move it. Free installation could mean only X amount of wire, gas piping, ETC, included and after that your paying for the rest. Also keep in mind the box stores usually opt for lower end installation companies to do these installs. I can tell hundreds of horror stories of how these things have been "installed". I would look for a onan/cummins or a kohler unit and stay away from generac and briggs/GE models. I would also highly reccomend purchasing through a reputable certified dealer generator company and having them do a turnkey installation. A lot of the electric companies out there claiming to do these installs know nothing about servicing the units and if there is a problem with it you may be out of luck with warranty if they didnt register it properly. Long story short, do your homework, make sure you know who you are buying from and if they are certified installers/servicing dealers. A generator is a big investment and can either make you very happy to have or a major headache if its broken/not installed correctly.

thank you. They prob have the biggest advertising budget for a reason.

 

[My Old Tools]

My Generac came with the house. It's a 35kw water cooled 4 cyl. LP with a dedicated 750 gal tank. Engine is a Japanese (Mitsubishi) 4 cylinder. It has 3xx hours on it now. Runs the self test every Friday. A couple of times a year I let it run for an hour under load. I has zero failures other than a new battery after it set for a year un-powered while we did a remodel. It is probably 10-12 years old now.