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House wrap a pole building?

slowTA

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I'm planning my pole barn build for this spring and the builder didn't mention anything about Tyvek/house wrap, but they're putting up the insulation and liner panel.

The current plans call for metal roof & siding, R19 batts on the sides, R30 blown in on the ceiling, metal liner panel interior siding and ceiling, ridge vent, 1 foot overhang and soffits. Also 2" Foamular 250 and radiant floor heating.

I'm wondering if the house wrap isn't recommended for my application? I've seen pictures on here of pole barns with house wrap and saw a pole barn going up that had it.
 
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RPH

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Did mine in tyvek. Stops any drafts and also keeps the moisture from the metal from the insulation.
 

silverram323

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I did on mine, if it will be heated it is code here.


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outdoorspace

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I used perforated radiant barrier as a wrap on mine, and taped all corners and seams. The radiant barrier is spaced 1-1/2" away from the metal (the thickness of the girts) to provide a gap so it works properly.
 
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slowTA

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Thanks for the replies. Once I get the permits (in case there are any other changes) I'll bring it to the builder's attention.

But I'm curious about the difference between putting the wrap on the girts vs. on the posts.
 

Chetter

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Definitely do it, I did when I built my pole style garage back in 96. I've spent years insulating it and it pays off when you have the "polar vortex" that is hitting many of us in the country. I also installed some Green Hinges on my overhead doors to keep the doors tightly against the door seals even in the high winds, my garage sits facing the west/northwest and gets blasted, worth the money....
 

NUTTSGT

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Thanks for the replies. Once I get the permits (in case there are any other changes) I'll bring it to the builder's attention.

But I'm curious about the difference between putting the wrap on the girts vs. on the posts.

If you're surfing the 'net and go to Youtube, check out some of the build series from RR Buildings. Kyle explains alot.

Better yet, here's a link to a video he did with Matt Risinger (another quality builder/Youtube channel) where they talk about housewrap.

 

checkthisout

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Thanks for the replies. Once I get the permits (in case there are any other changes) I'll bring it to the builder's attention.

But I'm curious about the difference between putting the wrap on the girts vs. on the posts.

You want to put a condensate blanket under the metal siding. It's 1.5" insulation wrapped in vinyl. The exact same stuff they put on your roof.

Tyvek and other wraps are rendered null if placed under siding that cannot breathe.
 
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slowTA

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I thought the purpose of house wrap was to help seal up any gaps that let drafts in. With metal siding there are gaps all along the bottom and top depending on how the trim wraps around the siding. This gets worse with wainscoting.
 

RPH

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The other “problem” the tyvek solved was the steel panel against the treated grade board. The newer treatments will eat the steel so you must separate the two with something. Tyvek solved that issue along with the gaps, drafts problem noted above.
 

Muddy72

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Kyle from RR Buildings is a wealth of knowledge about Pole Building construction. His series of YouTube videos are well produced and have followers around the world!
 

checkthisout

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Vapor passes through the Tyvek then condenses on the steel because the steel is an air and water tight barrier.

I don't see why any builder would place steel siding (I assume sheets) over OSB?

If you were doing it that way the best practice would be to put up OSB, then TYVEK, then furring then install the steel over the firring. You would then want a continuous vent at the top and bottom of the wall to allow air to circulate in the cavity which would allow the OSB to stay dry.

I guess what I am saying is that yes you can put TYVEK under steel siding but it's simplya waste of money.

The proper material on a pole building would be the condensate blanket which can vary but is usually just fiberglass encased in a vinyl wrap. This keeps vapor from condensing on the inside of the steel.

If you do this on the walls, you can then fill the wall cavity with normal bat insulation along with a continuous barrier over the top of that.

Using TYVEK under steel would be akin to having a fancy glove made of gortex but then putting your gloved hand inside a plastic bag.
 

SALIV8

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Well here's another significant reason for wrapping under a pole buildings steel sheets:

If you spray foam and need to replace a steel panel you will be pissed if you don't have the wrap...
 

stm317

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Vapor passes through the Tyvek then condenses on the steel because the steel is an air and water tight barrier.

If you do this on the walls, you can then fill the wall cavity with normal bat insulation along with a continuous barrier over the top of that.

Using TYVEK under steel would be akin to having a fancy glove made of gortex but then putting your gloved hand inside a plastic bag.

The metal sheets aren't permeable by themselves, but when they're installed, they have screw holes, seams between panels, and gaps all along the top and bottom that are not sealed. This can allow moisture to get behind the metal. There's flashing installed of course to direct running water away, but water vapor in the air can absolutely work it's way around metal siding, or just about any other exterior material.

If there's no moisture barrier in place to keep the moisture out, then it's free to enter your wall cavity/insulation which is obviously bad for framing, but also makes the insulation less effective.
 
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checkthisout

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The metal sheets aren't permeable by themselves, but when they're installed, they have screw holes, seams between panels, and gaps all along the top and bottom that are not sealed. This can allow moisture to get behind the metal. There's flashing installed of course to direct running water away, but water vapor in the air can absolutely work it's way around metal siding, or just about any other exterior material.

If there's no moisture barrier in place to keep the moisture out, then it's free to enter your wall cavity/insulation which is obviously bad for framing, but also makes the insulation less effective.

OSB and Tyvek both "breathe". Steel does not. If you are heating the inside of the building, air and water vapor pass through the OSB and TYVEK and will condense on the steel causing wetting which then unfortunately makes it way back onto the OSB through the holes in the Tyvek.

In other words your water intrusion comes from condensation instead of outside precipitation.

Metal roof is not known for leaking, especially in a vertical application so I wouldn't be concerned with outside moisture making it's way in but condensation on the steel is definitely an issue and the reason they blanket the inside of steel siding.

Point being, if you AREN'T putting OSB behind the steel, then use the standard vinyl encapsulated condensation blanket which you tack to the poles and girts and then put your steel over the top of that.

If you use Tyvek, then you would want to fir the steel out and vent it at the top and bottom so the wall assembly can breathe.
 
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slowTA

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So if you're heating the building and moisture condenses on the inside of the steel, how would leaving the Tyvek off help anything?

For arguments sake, my plan is to have wainscoting outside along with insulation and liner panel inside. Wouldn't some kind of house wrap keep the draft from the top, bottom, and wainscoting seam out of the heated space? I was under the impression that the insulation and liner would also help with condensation issues.
 

checkthisout

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So if you're heating the building and moisture condenses on the inside of the steel, how would leaving the Tyvek off help anything?

You need an air tight barrier between the steel and OSB if you are installing OSB.

If you aren't installing OSB then you need to a condensate blanket which is an air-tight barrier encapsulating fiberglass or some other type of insulation.

For arguments sake, my plan is to have wainscoting outside along with insulation and liner panel inside. Wouldn't some kind of house wrap keep the draft from the top, bottom, and wainscoting seam out of the heated space? I was under the impression that the insulation and liner would also help with condensation issues.

So, starting from the outside and moving in, what layers make up your wall?
 
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slowTA

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Exterior metal siding, girts, post, interior gifts, batt insulation, interior metal siding.

I was gointo have the tyvek put between the exterior metal siding and girts.
 

stm317

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OSB and Tyvek both "breathe". Steel does not. If you are heating the inside of the building, air and water vapor pass through the OSB and TYVEK and will condense on the steel causing wetting which then unfortunately makes it way back onto the OSB through the holes in the Tyvek.

In other words your water intrusion comes from condensation instead of outside precipitation.

Metal is only impermeable if it's a continuous sheet. A building is not a continuous sheet of metal. Go stand in a building with just a metal skin on a cold, windy day and you'll discover that air easily gets through the seams and gaps of the metal exterior, and if air can get through, then moisture can too. A tyvek style moisture barrier will reduce both air infiltration and moisture from the outside. You should also have a vapor barrier on the inside of the wall to keep the warm moist air from penetrating into your wall cavity.

Metal roof is not known for leaking, especially in a vertical application so I wouldn't be concerned with outside moisture making it's way in but condensation on the steel is definitely an issue and the reason they blanket the inside of steel siding.

Condensation occurs when warm, moist air contacts a cool surface. If you're heating the space inside of your building, then you should have a vapor barrier on the inside of the wall, and insulation within the wall which means the moisture vapor never gets into your wall cavity, and the warm air never contacts the cool metal. Condensation doesn't have the chance to form if the building is done properly.


If you use Tyvek, then you would want to fir the steel out and vent it at the top and bottom so the wall assembly can breathe.

This sounds like the typical method for pole frame construction, where horizontal girts are nailed to the outside of the poles, and the siding is then fastened to those girts. If Tyvek is used, it would go between the girts and exterior siding, directly beneath the metal. There's no need to fir it out anymore because the ribs in the metal panels allow airflow.

The ideal wall cross section should be an assembly like this:
Interior of building>>>vapor barrier>>>insulation>>>moisture barrier>>>exterior siding>>>outside air.

The vapor barrier keeps the interior moisture from getting into the wall in the first place, the insulation keeps the warmth from reaching the cooler surface of the exterior (where it could condense), and the moisture barrier on the outside keeps the bulk of the moisture outside from getting into your wall, while also letting it vent to the outside if necessary.
 
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checkthisout

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Exterior metal siding, girts, post, interior gifts, batt insulation, interior metal siding.

I was gointo have the tyvek put between the exterior metal siding and girts.

Skip the Tyvek and use a condensation blanket. You can then install your bats like normal. Use care in making sure your interior vapor barrier is air tight.
 

850xpeps

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So for the vapor barrier, how well would that work with openings cut in for outlets and light switches?



You bunch up poly and nail the electrical box trough it. Out buy the proper poly boxes that are sized for single or dual or however many gang switches. Then you seal the poly to the front face of the poly box. I’ve got here I’ll find and post a pic.
 

checkthisout

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Metal is only impermeable if it's a continuous sheet. A building is not a continuous sheet of metal. Go stand in a building with just a metal skin on a cold, windy day and you'll discover that air easily gets through the seams and gaps of the metal exterior, and if air can get through, then moisture can too. A tyvek style moisture barrier will reduce both air infiltration and moisture from the outside. You should also have a vapor barrier on the inside of the wall to keep the warm moist air from penetrating into your wall cavity.

In the form of humidity coming in with air, yes. In the form of water no. A metal sidewall is no more leaky than a metal roof made of the same material. Tyvek won't stop water from leaking in through defects on a sidewall anymore than it would on a roof assembly and we don't use (regular) TYVEK under metal roofs to stop rain from coming in.

What the tyvek does do is allow water that has leaked in through defects to evaporate back out so it doesn't stay trapped in the wall cavity. If there is metal siding, the metal doesn't breathe enough to allow this to take place so the Tyvek is just a waste of $$$$.

Condensation occurs when warm, moist air contacts a cool surface. If you're heating the space inside of your building, then you should have a vapor barrier on the inside of the wall, and insulation within the wall which means the moisture vapor never gets into your wall cavity, and the warm air never contacts the cool metal. Condensation doesn't have the chance to form if the building is done properly.

You use the air-tight condensation blanket to keep interior air from ever contacting the steel. It's air tight as well as insulative in order to keep the surface that interior air will contact above the point where moisture would condense.

You can then fill the cavity with normal bat insulation along with a vapor barrier just as you stated. The difference is the wall cavity is now entirely sealed (air-tight) from both inside and outside air and moisture.

This sounds like the typical method for pole frame construction, where horizontal girts are nailed to the outside of the poles, and the siding is then fastened to those girts. If Tyvek is used, it would go between the girts and exterior siding, directly beneath the metal. There's no need to fir it out anymore because the ribs in the metal panels allow airflow.

In this case you would use the condensation blanket which is an airtight barrier (it's vinyl or something stronger) encasing some type of insulation I.E. foam or fiberglass in lieu of using a breathable building wrap like Tyvek.

The ideal wall cross section should be an assembly like this:
Interior of building>>>vapor barrier>>>insulation>>>moisture barrier>>>exterior siding>>>outside air.

Yes but the siding type matters. Is the siding breathable I.E. wood or maybe hardi or is it non-permeable like metal.

The vapor barrier keeps the interior moisture from getting into the wall in the first place, the insulation keeps the warmth from reaching the cooler surface of the exterior (where it could condense), and the moisture barrier on the outside keeps the bulk of the moisture outside from getting into your wall, while also letting it vent to the outside if necessary.

Yes but interior vapor barriers only stop so much. Humidity still gets through and will pass through the insulation, through the Tyvek and condense on the back of the metal where it stayed trapped and begins to soak any wood that's behind it.

If the metal is firred out, the moisture can pass through the Tyvek to the outside vented cavity.

If there is no way for the tyvek to breathe to the outside then you don't want to use it. You want to use a sold barrier that will block interior vapor and air from being able to contact the siding.

A condensation blanket performs both those functions.


My neighbor, a retired carpenter, was repairing some rot on another neighbors 30 year old pole building caused by condensation pass through insulation.

Point being, he said vapor barriers have always been a topic of endless debate and probably always will be.
 

checkthisout

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So for the vapor barrier, how well would that work with openings cut in for outlets and light switches?

Use surface mount conduit. This saves you from having to plan and run your electrical beforehand as well as all the cutting you will have to do to the metal.

It will allow you to finish your building interior without having to slow down and do tedious electrical work.

Strictly my opinion here though.
 

Motoman1100

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Kyle from RR Buildings is a wealth of knowledge about Pole Building construction. His series of YouTube videos are well produced and have followers around the world!

Absolute truth. Kyle is a master of the pole building. It'd serve you well to spend some time watching his videos so you know what a properly built building looks like.

 
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slowTA

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Use surface mount conduit. This saves you from having to plan and run your electrical beforehand as well as all the cutting you will have to do to the metal.

It will allow you to finish your building interior without having to slow down and do tedious electrical work.

Strictly my opinion here though.

I really prefer to not have conduit and the builder said his guys would cut the openings and adjust the boxes so they're in the lower part of the ridges. I'm also going to have to bring up the feed between the girts so that will be another hole in the interior wall. But I get your point.
 

checkthisout

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I really prefer to not have conduit and the builder said his guys would cut the openings and adjust the boxes so they're in the lower part of the ridges. I'm also going to have to bring up the feed between the girts so that will be another hole in the interior wall. But I get your point.

Gotcha. I was giving advice from a DIY standpoint.
 

stm317

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In the form of humidity coming in with air, yes. In the form of water no. A metal sidewall is no more leaky than a metal roof made of the same material. Tyvek won't stop water from leaking in through defects on a sidewall anymore than it would on a roof assembly and we don't use (regular) TYVEK under metal roofs to stop rain from coming in.

What the tyvek does do is allow water that has leaked in through defects to evaporate back out so it doesn't stay trapped in the wall cavity. If there is metal siding, the metal doesn't breathe enough to allow this to take place so the Tyvek is just a waste of $$$$.

Tyvek is a moisture barrier, not a vapor barrier. It's not intended to keep everything out. It's there to keep bulk moisture out. Because it's vertical, any moisture that collects, will do so on the exterior face of the tyvek and then gravity will cause it to run to the bottom, and out from beneath the metal siding. The metal "breathes" plenty because of the ribs, seams, and gaps across the top/bottom. Even if there is trim across the bottom (there should be), there's still enough of a gap for moisture to exit.



You use the air-tight condensation blanket to keep interior air from ever contacting the steel. It's air tight as well as insulative in order to keep the surface that interior air will contact above the point where moisture would condense.

You can then fill the cavity with normal bat insulation along with a vapor barrier just as you stated. The difference is the wall cavity is now entirely sealed (air-tight) from both inside and outside air and moisture.

The condensation blankets that you keep mentioning are fine, but the plastic shell is a vapor barrier, and should not be used with any other vapor barriers. Having the blanket on the outside means that no other vapor barrier should be used. Double vapor barriers are a bad thing that will trap condensation and lead to mold/rot.

In this case you would use the condensation blanket which is an airtight barrier (it's vinyl or something stronger) encasing some type of insulation I.E. foam or fiberglass in lieu of using a breathable building wrap like Tyvek.

Again, this is probably fine, so long as no other vapor barrier is used. You end up with a vapor barrier on the outside of the wall, which is common in places that don't heat their buildings. There are cases (like spray foam) where it can work well in all climates, but the general rule is that vapor barriers go on the warm side of a wall assembly, and for most of the US and Canada that means it would go on the inside.

Yes but the siding type matters. Is the siding breathable I.E. wood or maybe hardi or is it non-permeable like metal.

Metal siding is not air tight! It's got seams where the panels meet, and gaps at the top and bottom of each panel. Additionally, the ribs in the panels allow tons of air movement. I've stood in buildings with no tyvek before and seen light coming trough gaps and seams in the metal. There's no way that something with gaps that let light and air through can be an impermeable barrier.


Yes but interior vapor barriers only stop so much. Humidity still gets through and will pass through the insulation, through the Tyvek and condense on the back of the metal where it stayed trapped and begins to soak any wood that's behind it.

That's not how true vapor barriers work. A true vapor barrier is rated as impermeable, and if the seams are properly sealed then no vapor can pass through. If there's still humidity in the insulation, it's coming from the outside.


If there is no way for the tyvek to breathe to the outside then you don't want to use it. You want to use a sold barrier that will block interior vapor and air from being able to contact the siding.

This is what a common metal siding profile looks like:

profile1236.png


All of those ribs allow plenty of air movement for "breathing" and lets any moisture in the wall cavity vent to the outside through the top, bottom, or any seams.
 

checkthisout

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Tyvek is a moisture barrier, not a vapor barrier. It's not intended to keep everything out. It's there to keep bulk moisture out. Because it's vertical, any moisture that collects, will do so on the exterior face of the tyvek and then gravity will cause it to run to the bottom, and out from beneath the metal siding. The metal "breathes" plenty because of the ribs, seams, and gaps across the top/bottom. Even if there is trim across the bottom (there should be), there's still enough of a gap for moisture to exit.

I see. So you're saying the nature of the metal siding allows it to vent adequately through it's seams. What about the portions of the steel that are in contact with the Tyvek (or whatever).

I disagree BUT there is a lot of variability in claddings and climate.


The condensation blankets that you keep mentioning are fine, but the plastic shell is a vapor barrier, and should not be used with any other vapor barriers. Having the blanket on the outside means that no other vapor barrier should be used. Double vapor barriers are a bad thing that will trap condensation and lead to mold/rot.

100% true. Unfortunately metal siding is for all intents and purposes an impermeable barrier I.E. a vapor barrier.

I disagree with the above assertion that metal siding breathes adequately on it's own.

Again, this is probably fine, so long as no other vapor barrier is used. You end up with a vapor barrier on the outside of the wall, which is common in places that don't heat their buildings. There are cases (like spray foam) where it can work well in all climates, but the general rule is that vapor barriers go on the warm side of a wall assembly, and for most of the US and Canada that means it would go on the inside.

I agree. Again my reasoning and what I have found is that steel is already acting as a vapor barrier

Metal siding is not air tight! It's got seams where the panels meet, and gaps at the top and bottom of each panel. Additionally, the ribs in the panels allow tons of air movement. I've stood in buildings with no tyvek before and seen light coming trough gaps and seams in the metal. There's no way that something with gaps that let light and air through can be an impermeable barrier.

Yes, it lets some air through but not enough to properly vent.

That's not how true vapor barriers work. A true vapor barrier is rated as impermeable, and if the seams are properly sealed then no vapor can pass through. If there's still humidity in the insulation, it's coming from the outside.

Well, just like you're saying steel siding has air leaks, so do vapor barriers.

This is what a common metal siding profile looks like:

profile1236.png


All of those ribs allow plenty of air movement for "breathing" and lets any moisture in the wall cavity vent to the outside through the top, bottom, or any seams.
I disagree.

This is lot of typing. I would simply point out to you how much venting one typically finds in a vaulted roof assembly to keep moisture from condensing in the space.

A wall assembly with metal roofing as the cladding is no different and would require just as much venting to work properly.
 

checkthisout

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1) Vapor barriers are imperfect. That is why attic spaces and especially vaulting ceilings are vented with a LOT of venting.

2) Steel sheet siding blocks air and moisture movement. If it it has gaps that allow it to breathe adequately enough to properly vent the wall assembly, then you're going to have problems with owls, bees, rats, mice bats raccoons and elephants living in the wall cavity.

3) The condensate blanket is wrapped to prevent the passage of air to the steel. If you just used fiberglass, air would still move through it and condense on the backside of the steel and soak the insulation. Just like Tyvek will.

4) Since the steel already blocks airflow, adding the condensate blanket makes no difference in whether or not the wall cavity will vent to the outside.

The condensate blanket keeps air from passing through and contacting the steel as well as keeping moisture from condensing on the blanket itself. (R-Value).
 

850xpeps

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1) Vapor barriers are imperfect. That is why attic spaces and especially vaulting ceilings are vented with a LOT of venting.

2) Steel sheet siding blocks air and moisture movement. If it it has gaps that allow it to breathe adequately enough to properly vent the wall assembly, then you're going to have problems with owls, bees, rats, mice bats raccoons and elephants living in the wall cavity.

3) The condensate blanket is wrapped to prevent the passage of air to the steel. If you just used fiberglass, air would still move through it and condense on the backside of the steel and soak the insulation. Just like Tyvek will.

4) Since the steel already blocks airflow, adding the condensate blanket makes no difference in whether or not the wall cavity will vent to the outside.

The condensate blanket keeps air from passing through and contacting the steel as well as keeping moisture from condensing on the blanket itself. (R-Value).



Attic spaces are vented for lots of reasons. If you don’t keep the temperature the same as outside condensation will form on the underside of the roof structure from the temperature difference. Also in summer it’s vented so it doesn’t cook the roof from the inside by acting like an oven.
Steel siding is not sealed. Even with butyl tape down it’s almost impossible for it to stop air penetration. Moisture barrier on the outside like tyvek and vapuor barrier on the inside.

I agree a metal roof requires adequate venting just like asphalt or other. While the seams aren’t completely sealed you don’t know how much air will escape through. So you can’t depend on it. You must supply adequate sq ft of venting for your roof.

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checkthisout

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Attic spaces are vented for lots of reasons. If you don’t keep the temperature the same as outside condensation will form on the underside of the roof structure from the temperature difference. Also in summer it’s vented so it doesn’t cook the roof from the inside by acting like an oven.
Steel siding is not sealed. Even with butyl tape down it’s almost impossible for it to stop air penetration. Moisture barrier on the outside like tyvek and vapuor barrier on the inside.

I agree a metal roof requires adequate venting just like asphalt or other. While the seams aren’t completely sealed you don’t know how much air will escape through. So you can’t depend on it. You must supply adequate sq ft of venting for your roof.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


You're obviously knowledgeable. The only point we disagree on is whether or not steel siding breathes adequately to allow vapor to escape.

My opinion (and just a couple of experiences with rotten pole barn framing) have taught me that the steel siding does not breathe and in the case where you have a wall cavity that can't breathe, it's best to seal and fill the cavity as best as possible. (obviously this only applies to structures you intend to insulate and heat).

That is why spray foam has grown in popularity. It 100% seals the wall cavity so no vapor-laden air can move through.

The vinyl lined condensation blanket acts the same (with an obviously lower R value) as spray foam would (an inch or two of spray foam is often shot into wall cavities up against the sheathing and then covered up with standard insulation bats or rigid foam) and then a vapor barrier is placed over this assembly before interior finish like drywall or whatever is applied.
 
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