House wrap under vinyl siding?

[tjdux]

Hey my neihbor is having a contractor make his 1 car garage wider so he can pull his truck in. Going from 8ft wide to 12 ft wide door basically and a little extra storage space on the side.

Ive been watching the build and the contractor seems to be doing a decent job but theres a few things i think i would wanted done differently if it were my invesment.

Mainly, don't you need a water resistant membrane over OSB shething before putting on vynil siding? Ive never done vinyl before but im pretty sure you want to keep that sheething mosly dry.

I know siding will always leak a little moisture in wet weather and if installed properly the wall behind will get a little air to dry but still wouldnt house wrap be great inexpensive insurance for the wall?



Also the french drain thats cut out of the photo on the left end seems to be draining uphill. Although they may work more on that before its all done. I will try and snag a photo of it later.

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[kaiser715]

Around here, "most" builders don't put wrap under vinyl on garages. Don't know about currently, but this was witnessed 10-15 years ago when a lot of houses were going up near me.

Lots of houses, too at that time did not use house wrap.

Builders were doing plastic sheeting up under sheetrock, vinyl siding only outside the sheathing. I know nobody is doing that anymore. I had to pull some siding off my house a couple years ago. After 15 years the OSB was fine. No wrap.

 

[Tejay]

100.00$ for a roll of house wrap is pretty cheap insurance

 

[pcmeiners]

You don't need house wrap if you want air flow, condensation within the OSB and garage space (even with foam board), and water leakage in severe weather. No house wrap, how cheap can one get?

 

[jd_1138]

100.00$ for a roll of house wrap is pretty cheap insurance

Yep, the builder is saving himself 100 bucks and a couple hours. Most homeowners wouldn't know to ask for it.

 

[tjdux]

Right on guys, i got home from work today and noticed it and just wanted to make sure my uneducated opinion was correct. I know the guy is doing it cheap as possible but you get what you pay for too. I think I will mention something to my neihbor but then again this isnt their "end of days" home, more starter so they will probably only be there 5 or 10 more years and i bet it lasts that long.

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[larry4406]

25 years or so in my area no one had house wrap on any new house. Only builders felt IF you had brick veneer.

Then DuPont came out with Tyvek. Interestingly the codes changed and now house wrap became required. Then houses became too tight so we had to add external makeup air systems tied into the returns. Then with the advent of foam the houses became tighter so now need interlocked makeup air dampers if the kitchen exhaust exceeds 400 cfm. Fast forward and we need smart home house fans (two for the size houses I build) to periodically purge air from the home.

I think your neighbor will be fine on a detached garage if well built.

 

[MWitte]

I'm no expert, but I did read the installation instructions from several vinyl siding manufacturers before I sided my house. All of the instructions I read said that you are required to have a water tight shell before installing the vinyl siding. Maybe suggest your neighbor read the instructions with the siding before having a conversation with his contractor.

 

[mikegt4]

When I built my house 20 years ago Tyvek was considered an air movement barrier. I used SIP panels which are glued together so air leakage is not an issue. My panel manufacturer told me that I was wasting my money wrapping the house. I did use roofing paper around windows, doors and corners before applying vinyl siding.

If I were doing it again I would wrap the house with a water resistant membrane over the panels (OSB) as cheap insurance. It would help channel any water leakage down rather than let it soak into the wood. You never know that you have a leak until it's too late.

 

[BADSIX]

I would think the vinyl siding would sweat and cause moisture problems
Jay D.

 

[matt_i]

The shop I built is attached to a shop I didn't build but is 20 years old now. Both vinyl sided. I used housewrap and they did not. The part where I tore off old siding (with due care) in order to merge the siding, the osb looked good except for an obvious fail in installing the J-channel over top of the garage door. It allowed water to go down behind the siding and rot out the osb, I ended up replacing a piece.

Imo the biggest issues would be around windows and doors, and other wall penetrations where extra care has to be taken.

But that said, I would always build with the housewrap as an additional insurance and air barrier.

 

[jives]

You should have the garage owner and builder read this:

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/all-about-rainscreens

In sum, the vinyl siding is only part of the rainscreen, mostly to protect against driven water and then direct the flow of water. Water will get behind the vinyl and will run down the backside. Though there is a gap between much of the vinyl and the sheathing (e.g., OSB), the sheathing will get wet. OSB does not like to get wet. A barrier like housewrap is necessary.

 

[polizei1]

Absolutely! Housewrap should be on every outbuilding IMO. It's pretty cheap, and will help keep water off the OSB.

 

[Firebrick43]

I hate to throw a fly in the ointment but people should really look up "tyvek failures"

Typically not as bad on vinyl siding as wood and fiber cement due to vinyls better ventilation but overtime tyvek'd pores with dirt and bug parts forming a double vapor barrier and saturating the OSB. I have personally witnessed it on a cedar sided house down the road.

Fine home building has had several articals on this in the last few years. A lot of builders are going back to a d 226 building felt.

 

[tjdux]

I hate to throw a fly in the ointment but people should really look up "tyvek failures"

Typically not as bad on vinyl siding as wood and fiber cement due to vinyls better ventilation but overtime tyvek'd pores with dirt and bug parts forming a double vapor barrier and saturating the OSB. I have personally witnessed it on a cedar sided house down the road.

Fine home building has had several articals on this in the last few years. A lot of builders are going back to a d 226 building felt.

No fly in the ointment whatsoever with that comment. When i originally posted the question housewrap was the first to come to mind but 2nd was your suggestion about felt paper.

When my house had vinyl put on the contractor put up foam board with felt paper over it all on top of painted wood lap siding from when the house was built in tbe 30s.

I do feel you're in agreement something should be put on the sheething correct?

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[ForceFed70]

It's code in my area.

 

[joes169]

Vinyl siding is probably the most likely kind of siding to leak. Thankfully, it's also installed loose enough (generally) that it allows most of the water out. Regardless, it's simply crazy to waste the money & labor to install any siding without a decent WRB behind it.

 

[Firebrick43]

I do feel you're in agreement something should be put on the sheething correct?

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Yes, I would not use OSB without covering it.

 

[rburke65]

From what little I kno, I'm thinking that you...he....should request some type of Tyvek material under that siding.

 

[tjdux]

From what little I kno, I'm thinking that you...he....should request some type of Tyvek material under that siding.

Yeah its not onenof those "this guy i know....but really me situations i promise".. if it were me I would have photos up every other day of the build lol. And i would do it my self.

My neihbor actually asked me if i could do the worm for him but I declined as I don't feel my building skills are up to par to do that big of job for someone else. Redoing rafter angles isn't something inwas familiar with but now after watching this guy do it ive learned a few new things.

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[BADSIX]

I hate to throw a fly in the ointment but people should really look up "tyvek failures"

Typically not as bad on vinyl siding as wood and fiber cement due to vinyls better ventilation but overtime tyvek'd pores with dirt and bug parts forming a double vapor barrier and saturating the OSB. I have personally witnessed it on a cedar sided house down the road.

Fine home building has had several articals on this in the last few years. A lot of builders are going back to a d 226 building felt.

GOOD OLD ROOFING FELT IT WORKED FOR YEARS !
Jay D.

 

[nicholam77]

I am in the middle of doing vinyl on my garage myself, and the manufacturer's installation instructions said house wrap or some kind of waterproof backing should be applied over the sheathing. And flashing 10 inches out from all corners, windows, and doors.

I don't think it's required by code for a detached garage in my area, but water WILL get behind the vinyl at times especially during heavy rain I would imagine. It even has little drain pinholes in the bottom of the laps.

I used Block It house wrap and it was not that expensive. It doesn't allow the siding to slide back and forth that freely because there is some friction, but nothing that will prevent it from expanding and contracting.

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[OccupantRJ]

GOOD OLD ROOFING FELT IT WORKED FOR YEARS !
Jay D.

Works for me too.

 

[tjdux]

Works for me too.

Yeah i figured when he did the roof he would do the walls...

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[cherrybomb]

Lots of places house wrap is code,even if it isn't, remember osb doesn't like moisture ,housewrap is reasonable way to prevent it.It also somewhat helps keep the wind out.

 

[Tejay]

Many situations will cause frost on the back of the vinyl. Where do you suppose the moisture goes when it warms up?

 

[Bluedodge]

With those piles of bags of trash piled around his garage begging for rats and vermine to move in, I think a vapor barrier is the least of your neighbor's worries.

 

[n20junkie]

Tyvek, tyvek tape, then perforated fanfold prior to siding installation is how I have always done it.

 

[Randy in Maine]

When I built my house 20 years ago Tyvek was considered an air movement barrier. I used SIP panels which are glued together so air leakage is not an issue. My panel manufacturer told me that I was wasting my money wrapping the house. I did use roofing paper around windows, doors and corners before applying vinyl siding.

If I were doing it again I would wrap the house with a water resistant membrane over the panels (OSB) as cheap insurance. It would help channel any water leakage down rather than let it soak into the wood. You never know that you have a leak until it's too late.

I also used Tyvek house wrap between my SIPs and the log siding on the outside. Cheap money well spent.

 

[MikeF2316]

Vinyl siding gets very dirty over time under the eaves especially, where the rain doesn't hit it. And mildew grows where it gets wet, especially on parts that don't see sun. So when you dig out your pressure washer to clean it up, guarantied some water will end up on the wrong side of the siding.

I used roofing felt on mine.

 

[n20junkie]

My garage has tyvek and the synthetic roof membrane.

Time may very well show us that tar paper was better in the end. But I gave the fancy stuff a try.

 

[bob15]

I wonder how all the buildings built before Tyvex have survived?

My house is closing in on 120 years old and has survived without Tyvex....who would have thought?

 

[n20junkie]

But back to the OP, regardless of underlayment, old houses had it, and new houses should. Siding nailed right to OSB or plywood is just asking for water problems.

 

[jives]

I wonder how all the buildings built before Tyvex have survived?

My house is closing in on 120 years old and has survived without Tyvex....who would have thought?

Vinyl siding and OSB were not around 120 years ago, houses were not tight as they are today, and accounting for water vapor movement was not on the list.

 

[Tejay]

My house is 120 years old and under the wood siding is battleship tarpaper - thicker than roofing felt available today.

 

[rayra]

100.00$ for a roll of house wrap is pretty cheap insurance

To the homeowner sure, to the builder/contractor it eats into his beer money.

 

[plumbing101mike]

I'm no expert, but I did read the installation instructions from several vinyl siding manufacturers before I sided my house. All of the instructions I read said that you are required to have a water tight shell before installing the vinyl siding. Maybe suggest your neighbor read the instructions with the siding before having a conversation with his contractor.

Excellent advice!

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[tjdux]

I did talk to the neihbor and explained the situation and he is gonna talk to the contractor but he hasn't been back for a almost a month. The contractor is a second job after 12 hr 6 or 7 day weeks doing road work for the state.

At that rate i may finish it out of the ocd annoyence of seeing it unfinished from my window.

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[ilovevocs]

I hate to throw a fly in the ointment but people should really look up "tyvek failures"

Typically not as bad on vinyl siding as wood and fiber cement due to vinyls better ventilation but overtime tyvek'd pores with dirt and bug parts forming a double vapor barrier and saturating the OSB. I have personally witnessed it on a cedar sided house down the road.

Fine home building has had several articals on this in the last few years. A lot of builders are going back to a d 226 building felt.

I have never seen a single residential contractor install tyvek properly.

They use staples which are not an approved application method.

Should be installed with screws and plates, all which should be taped to seal.

 

[ForceFed70]

I wonder how all the buildings built before Tyvex have survived?

My house is closing in on 120 years old and has survived without Tyvex....who would have thought?

Tar Paper and different building materials.