How bad is MDF for french cleat?

[snowman3]

I'd like to put some 8 foot strips on the garage wall and have each 8' section rated for ~300lbs spread across the strip.

Been reading lots of threads and 3/4 plywood is the standard. Problem is that I'm in an urban area and don't have a table saw or much woodworking equipment. So need to find the easiest manageable way to make the cleats without it being shoddy build quality.

So what is the easiest way to get the cleats cut to size? I could build a jig for the circular saw and rip 4" strips from a 4x8 sheet of ply. But I'm leery on whether I could keep it true.... never ripped thin strips of 3/4 ply before. And handling 4x8 sheet might be hard w/ plastic saw horses, etc.

How bad would it be to use pre-cut 4" strips of MDF or 1x4" board and try to rip the 45 degree bevel w/ a circular saw?? (or 8" board and rip 45 down the center). The long strips seem more manageable, but maybe I imagine it.

Another thing is that exposed surfaces will be painted to match garage wall color.

 

[ishiboo]

Plywood and MDF are probably similar strength for a french cleat, as long as it's a continuous cleat.

I would just buy a 1x4 to use as a guide, screw it to the plywood, and run the circular saw down it with a 45 degree bevel. Then move the 1x4 and cut again, which will give you two 8' pieces with 45 degree bevels. It is going to be more difficult to try and cut 4" strips with a saw.

 

[Big Bad Dad]

Why not just use 1x4's for this? Save the work of ripping, and probably not cost a lot more.....

 

[Big Bad Dad]

OOPS just re read the OP. I didn't catch the 45 degree bevel part.

 

[mdbeck1]

Plywood and MDF are probably similar strength for a french cleat, as long as it's a continuous cleat.

I would just buy a 1x4 to use as a guide, screw it to the plywood, and run the circular saw down it with a 45 degree bevel. Then move the 1x4 and cut again, which will give you two 8' pieces with 45 degree bevels. It is going to be more difficult to try and cut 4" strips with a saw.

...or make squared off cleats. Put a piece of 1/2" Ply on the wall and then put another one on top of it with the outside one higher. Make the mating size the same way. If it's too tight you might want to use thicker plywood for the spacer.

___________
||__ _|Thing
|| | to
|| | hang
|_____

||
__||
__||

<--Wall


If it's still unclear let me know and I'll see if I can clarify it.

 

[67carl]

To use a circular saw and keep it straight clamp down a straight edge. You can buy a cheap one at Harbor Freight or just make one from a long (straight) piece of lumber. See pic below. Measure the width of the saw blade to the edge of the base. Clamp the straight edge that distance from where you want to cut, set the saw at 45 degrees and go.

What hardware/home stores are near you? Most will rip down plywood for you... Not sure about using MDF to support weight, especially when you are hanging things on the bevel. I'm sure someone with more knowledge will chim in. I'd go with plywood or OSB before MDF...

 

[LennyTheLizard]

67Carl gave good advice on making your own fence for your circular saw.
You can find more info about it on familyhanyman.com or popularmechanics.com

I have a tablesaw. However, most times I will use my circular with a straight edge attached instead of using table saw (for long plywood rips).

I couldn't find my exact system, but it looks like this:
http://www.rockler.com/52-to-104-lo...xcNts2X8xrmTQ3Mw5B8DlzMdBMTf8SWnemBoCTubw_wcB

Mine was much cheaper at Lowe's - two pieces, doesn't come with clamps. I just use a couple spring clamps.

DON'T FORGET TO OFFSET FROM BLADE TO SAW EDGE.

 

[Voi]

I've had small pieces of MDF delaminate right through the middle. Picture a 12 x 12 piece opening up like a book. For that reason and because the edges or tips of the bevels take a beating I'd avoid MDF.

Mdbeck1 recommendations of L shaped cleats is a good one. I've done it both ways and the beveled cleat is easier and keeps things closer to the wall but I've actually found the gap behind garage cabinets to be a useful place to store things.

 

[Toolfool]

Bring your plywood by my shop, I'll rip it for you.

 

[ford33]

MDF will hold paint well and look smooth when finished. Cheap plywood will take a bit more effort to look as nice.

 

[67carl]

Bring your plywood by my shop, I'll rip it for you.

He doesn't list his location, but judging by his username I'd guess Hawaii or South Florida.

 

[Brians VWss]

He doesn't list his location, but judging by his username I'd guess Hawaii or South Florida.

Thats funny,
I had to scroll back to the top to see the name.

 

[slow]

Post your location. I am sure somebody would help you for a 12 pack.

 

[Chitown_hillbilly]

(or 8" board and rip 45 down the center). The long strips seem more manageable, but maybe I imagine it.

This is what I did before I had all the cool tools. Plus you basically guarantee that your cleats will fit together even if your bevel isn't quite a perfect 45.

 

[Toxicscrew]

Another option would be to use aluminum Z clips, basically a metal french cleat.

http://www.outwatercatalogs.com/lg_...alog_Vol_42/page/61/highlight/cabinet hanging

Used these with a milwork company I worked for, held all kinds of stuff on walls.

 

[Samh]

To use a circular saw and keep it straight clamp down a straight edge. You can buy a cheap one at Harbor Freight or just make one from a long (straight) piece of lumber. See pic below. Measure the width of the saw blade to the edge of the base. Clamp the straight edge that distance from where you want to cut, set the saw at 45 degrees and go.

What hardware/home stores are near you? Most will rip down plywood for you... Not sure about using MDF to support weight, especially when you are hanging things on the bevel. I'm sure someone with more knowledge will chim in. I'd go with plywood or OSB before MDF...

Unless I am misunderstanding you, the easier way to do that, would be to take a straight board, and screw it to a thin piece of plywood. Then run the saw down that straight board, and it will cut the board the distance from the fence to the blade. Then you can lay that down right on your cut marks instead of having to measure X distance off the cut mark

 

[Kaizen]

snow I wouldn't use mdf just because of the fastener holding power is not as good as wood or plywood. you say 300pounds for the whole length but if you put a cabinet on it and load it the weight will be a lot more over the whole thing.
if you are doing that shelf hanging thing I saw on one of those wood shows it will be fine with mdf.
4x8 sheet of anything will be fine on plastic sawhorses. as you are asking these questions i'll put you at intro level and suggest tilting your circular saw and just run it down the piece. it doesn't have to be perfect and if you mess up cut it off and try again. again you have to really mess it up for this not to work. if you do use mdf don't let it drop it will break if only a few inches thick.
and watch those fingers

 

[Orionrising]

get a Kreg rip-cut they are like 30 bucks

 

[gasgas17]

We pretty much never use MDF at work anymore(contractor). Just a poor quality product and the saw dust from the MDF is really bad for you. Our community college has also ban MDF from all there programs. We still build the odd closet organizer or shop cabinet out of it, but not very often.

Like said in the previous posts, use a straight edge with a clamp at both ends and a circular saw. Easy as pie.

 

[Terranova]

MDF, no way.

For the sawhorses, go to your bigbox hardware store and by a 4x8 of the thicker foam insulation. Put it under the wood your cutting as a sacrificial surface, just make sure your blade depth doesn't cut all the way through it.

 

[moparfreak]

I would agree with the sentiments here. MDF is probably not suitable to hang loaded down cabinets. If you were just hanging light stuff such as small hanger racks and such, it'd be fine, but otherwise I wouldn't. I actually plan to run a bunch of french cleats out of a sheet or two of spare OSB that I have, as I believe that is a much stronger product with all of the binder that is used in it.

Regardless of what product you use, make a straight edge and go to town. Here's a straight edge I made out of masonite (hardboard) that I've gotten a lot of use out of. Really all it was, is rip two pieces, one wider, one skinnier, glue the skinny piece on top making sure it exceeds the width from saw plate edge to your blade, then take your first rip cut and it'll trim the template to perfect length. Then all you have to do is line up the edge of the saw guide to your marked cut line. Might have to make a minor adjustment for the fact that the blade is set to 45 degrees in your case.

Mine has two sides so I can use both my 7-1/4" Skil Saw and my 3-1/2" Craftsman trim saw.

https://drive.bitcasa.com/v2/conv/image/preview/xlarge.jpg?digest=5IiKLPWs2Aw-V_uOgK2r0A==&*****=TmPbTUvo3fxBEm_S&payload=1ykWNIQb9Yh4joyDyoTQuhK7vMGwUkw9k39ZT-PRs0J3rPFSXMEU7xs4UMJalBxPbegjT2cFnMYGEPvL2t5rAreObT0JxqwMYOM1E0lXwKXD4XcNMCz7Di0EYRhi2Vi9d-LBCi_h6qRPaRTxIvRdnEr31ybQ1POV9UT2LGb3q60kpUrbbYd6LC2DvtX9SYOuGpp-OkxP4GOP9XxYtaFdVyv8QdulnOxI8Pa69qXeN34MLidWBZ4YFaZN&blid=a2a79a4083bb5f0f44e4b7c47e0536ea5c61b04b5ac07c30679625d601c60fb7&disposition=inline

Thanks,
Adam

 

[joel63]

I always learn something on GJ.

Now I know what a French cleat is.

Looks very handy.

 

[ishiboo]

I've had small pieces of MDF delaminate right through the middle. Picture a 12 x 12 piece opening up like a book. For that reason and because the edges or tips of the bevels take a beating I'd avoid MDF.

Mdbeck1 recommendations of L shaped cleats is a good one. I've done it both ways and the beveled cleat is easier and keeps things closer to the wall but I've actually found the gap behind garage cabinets to be a useful place to store things.

Interesting... MDF is homogeneous so I'm not sure how it would delaminate at a specific spot.

I have had top-quality plywood delaminate right through the middle though. It sucked, I had a bunch of very accurate cuts I had to make... got them all done and picked one piece up by the front and the back fell off.

 

[MarkG]

As Voi said----SKIP THE MDF!! It's just sawdust glued together and will come apart---'delaminate' might not be the right word if we're getting technical about it, since it isn't laminated, but it will break/flake apart.

Even with that long of a span, as long as you have some sort of solid support at the front edge of the shelf either from the ceiling joists or floor, and a ledger strip screwed into every stud along the wall, and the shelf screwed into the strip, you'll be fine. How many supports you have at the front will be determined by how much weight you plan to store on it. Since the ledger strip should be screwed solidly into every stud, the actual size lumber you use for it (2 x 4 or 2 x 6) is pretty irrelevant, so I'd be perfectly fine using a 2 x 4 for that and it would hold anything you'd be likely to store on it. (Unless you're the rare case that wants to store your spare engine blocks up there :S)

 

[ishiboo]

The cabinets he is likely to be using are also probably MDF shells. So I would still recommend MDF, as since you guys think it falls apart you will be left with a stupid looking plywood cleat on the wall and pile of dust and **** from the cabinet on the floor. With an all MDF solution, it will all go at the same time and you'll have a clean slate for whatever is next

 

[Kaizen]

I always learn something on GJ.

Now I know what a French cleat is.

Looks very handy.

The BEST way to hang cabinets by yourself!!

 

[MarkG]

Some guys will only learn the hard way-----the smart ones will learn from the years of experience of others.

 

[rlitman]

I've had small pieces of MDF delaminate right through the middle.

Ditto. If you try to put a screw into "endgrain" without predrilling, it's pretty much guaranteed to split.

Interesting... MDF is homogeneous so I'm not sure how it would delaminate at a specific spot.

I have had top-quality plywood delaminate right through the middle though. It sucked, I had a bunch of very accurate cuts I had to make... got them all done and picked one piece up by the front and the back fell off.

It is homogeneous only in density. The fibers are slightly more aligned with the plane of the sheet, much like plywood, but are also quite short (like the fibers in recycled newspaper). It's weak in tension, and especially weak if you pull one surface of the sheet away from the other (the direction most stressed in a french cleat). Note though that plywood, and wood in general fail along the grain in the same way.

With an angled connection, and sufficient bolting to the wall and cabinets, I think it should be fine for a french cleat, as the bolts/screws will hold it together.

 

[Notgrownup]

Le Cleat Francais....oui oui....

 

[TLCObsession]

One other comment: I have a table saw, but for something like this, the guide (called a 'rip fence') that comes with most circular saws does a fine job of making narrow rips. I prefer it to the table saw for jobs just like this. Instead of using a clamped on guide, just use set the rip fence, support your work, make sure your cord is clear for a full length cut and you'll be done in no time. Definitely easier than wrangling a full sheet on a table saw.

 

[ishiboo]

It is homogeneous only in density. The fibers are slightly more aligned with the plane of the sheet, much like plywood, but are also quite short (like the fibers in recycled newspaper). It's weak in tension, and especially weak if you pull one surface of the sheet away from the other (the direction most stressed in a french cleat). Note though that plywood, and wood in general fail along the grain in the same way.

Plywood uses veneers taken from a tree, laminated together in alternating directions. So I'm not sure how it's like plywood as the particles are aligned randomly. I don't know about particleboard, are you thinking of that?

MDF benefits lists:

Isotropic (its properties are the same in all directions as a result of no grain), so no tendency to split

A french cleat should not have a substantial pulling force away from the wall. It is primarily downward. The cleat action pulls it towards the wall and makes the two pieces behave much like 1. I would still always screw a cabinet to the wall with a french cleat, as someone bumping a light, empty cabinet could easily knock it off the cleat... my understanding is they are not meant to be used alone.

 

[ishiboo]

One other comment: I have a table saw, but for something like this, the guide (called a 'rip fence') that comes with most circular saws does a fine job of making narrow rips. I prefer it to the table saw for jobs just like this. Instead of using a clamped on guide, just use set the rip fence, support your work, make sure your cord is clear for a full length cut and you'll be done in no time. Definitely easier than wrangling a full sheet on a table saw.

Agreed. The main thing though is to also push the guide with your hand as you push the saw in the other.

 

[snowman3]

Dang, you guys are good!! Had my username before I moved to sunny AZ, but you had some good guesses! Heck, outwater catalog even has a store in Phoenix. So I might be able to get some metal Z-clips locally. Thanks!!

OK, MDF is out of the running. But now I'm wondering if metal cleats is the way to go. Monarch, Outwater, Orange, Eagle, etc. More expensive. Aside from nice looks and low profile, any advantage to the metal Z-clip?

The visual look is kind of important to the wife. The "bachelor garage" had a few boards on the wall with long nails as "hooks" to hang the shovel, rake, etc. That's mostly what I'll hang on the cleats. Maybe some shelves to hold boxes or totes. And some "heavier" items like ladders, etc. I'm not sure if we'll have cabinets yet. We are trying to get as much stuff onto the wall and off the floor as possible.

I like the "guide" idea, but how do you rip the strips for the last 3-4 cuts? A 15" wide guide will overhang the plywood at that point.

Great idea to back it w/ 4x8 styrofoam panel. I'll do that.

And maybe I'll try the circ saw rip fence and see if I can get a good cut. I tend to overthink all this stuff rather than just try something and git-r-done.