How do I connect the neutral?

[danroy323]

I'm ready to connect the garage subpanel to the house main panel. The house panel is a 200A Cutler Hammer BR series 40-80 circuits that was installed last year to replace a 100A unit. The garage panel is the old 100A panel of the house (Cutler Hammer BR series 12-24 circuits). Attached garage BTW.

I have a #1 AWG AL 4 wire cable to feed the garage http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet332. Connecting the 2 hots to the 100A breaker is no problem. Problem is with the neutral, I can't just connect it to a screw on the neutral bars. I'm thinking of moving the grounding wire of the main panel from the lug at the top of the left neutral bus bar to one of the screws on it and use the lug to connect the neutral of my feed wire. Is it the correct way to do it?

 

[chickenhauler]

You can move your ground wire down into the screw holes, then use the lug for your neutral. Just make sure that your garage panel is not bonded.

 

[brewchief]

There is an add on lug available that attaches to the neutral bar to allow for a larger wire.

 

[Steevo]

You can buy a screw-on lug for the neutral bar that will accept your #1 wire.
They are in the section where panel parts are at the electrical supply or at HD, etc.
It will have a flat part with two screw holes that line up with two screw holes in the neutral bar, and will have a big lug with set screw for the wire to go into.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Do you have a disconnect outside, or before this panel? If so, the neutral and ground in this house panel needs to be separated. I see a green screw and copper grounding strap from the top of the neutral bar on the RH side to the back of the panel board housing. If you have a disconnect outside of before this panel, you need to remove this bonding and move it to the ground bar on the LH side, which is insulated from the panel right now.

I won't mix neutrals and grounds even if its OK to do so, because you never know in the future what you will do. You may need them separated at some point in time, and then it becomes a lot of work to make them so.

Charles

 

[green.bubbly]

What kind of breakers are those and what is the advantage or purpose?

 

[danroy323]

Do you have a disconnect outside, or before this panel? If so, the neutral and ground in this house panel needs to be separated. I see a green screw and copper grounding strap from the top of the neutral bar on the RH side to the back of the panel board housing. If you have a disconnect outside of before this panel, you need to remove this bonding and move it to the ground bar on the LH side, which is insulated from the panel right now.

I won't mix neutrals and grounds even if its OK to do so, because you never know in the future what you will do. You may need them separated at some point in time, and then it becomes a lot of work to make them so.

Charles

There is no disconnect before the panel, only the meter. This is why both neutral bus bars are bonded to ground.

The neutrals and grounds aren't mixed together, the neutrals are on the neutral bars and the grounds are on the ground bars. Only the ground rod wire is attached to the top lug of the left neutral bar.

Like suggested I'll get a lug kit to attach the garage feed neutral to the neutral bar.

Dan

 

[danroy323]

What kind of breakers are those and what is the advantage or purpose?

They're Cutler Hammer BR quadplex breakers. They take half the space of the regular breakers. Although there was ample space for regular breakers, when the electrician did the panel change they reused the breakers from the old panel which was all done with quads. That's why the panel is rated 40-80, 40 slots with a max of 80 circuits using quads everywhere. I won't ever need this many circuits!

Dan

 

[jeffmoss26]

What size is the red romex?

 

[Gixerfixer]

Just a slight observation you could do with putting some distance between your networking equipment and that panel and its associated wiring

 

[danroy323]

What size is the red romex?

There are both 12-2 and 10-2 red Romex, 12-2 for the electrical heating circuits and 10-2 for the water heater.

Dan

 

[Aceman]

They're Cutler Hammer BR quadplex breakers. They take half the space of the regular breakers. Although there was ample space for regular breakers, when the electrician did the panel change they reused the breakers from the old panel which was all done with quads. That's why the panel is rated 40-80, 40 slots with a max of 80 circuits using quads everywhere. I won't ever need this many circuits!

That's bad practice in my opinion.

1. They're old used breakers. These things aren't expensive.
2. I don't buy C-H BR panels, but I know I can buy Siemens contractor pack panels(they come with breakers) for about the same price as their panels with no breakers. I wonder if your contractor just kept the new breakers?
3. Heavily loaded circuits ran through twin breakers can cause nuisance trips on the other circuits sharing the same breaker. You now have the potential for running 40 amps through a 1" wide breaker, rather than just 20.

What's the thing in front of the panel? A shelf?

 

[pattenp]

Don't know where you live, but if in US, you most likely should have put your bed room circuits on arc-fault breakers. I believe this is a requirement because of the new panel being put in. It was either a 2005 or 2008 NEC change.

Edit: Looks like a 2011 NEC change, but states "Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications" that Arc-Fault breakers need to be added. I don't know technically if a panel change is considered a branch circuit modification. You are most likely not under 2011 NEC, so it doesn't matter anyway.

 

[danroy323]

That's bad practice in my opinion.

1. They're old used breakers. These things aren't expensive.
2. I don't buy C-H BR panels, but I know I can buy Siemens contractor pack panels(they come with breakers) for about the same price as their panels with no breakers. I wonder if your contractor just kept the new breakers?
3. Heavily loaded circuits ran through twin breakers can cause nuisance trips on the other circuits sharing the same breaker. You now have the potential for running 40 amps through a 1" wide breaker, rather than just 20.

What's the thing in front of the panel? A shelf?

I know it's probably not the best practice but everything runs just fine and I didn't know better at the time... I don't know if he kept the breakers, he gave me a price for the entire job including a few new breakers for the new circuits we added when we remodeled the house. The only time a breaker popped we had clearly overloaded it (a table saw + a circular saw at the same time is a sure way to activate a 15amps breaker!)

That thing in front of the panel is a small freezer. I know there should not be anything in front of it...

 

[danroy323]

Don't know where you live, but if in US, you most likely should have put your bed room circuits on arc-fault breakers. I believe this is a requirement because of the new panel being put in. It was either a 2005 or 2008 NEC change.

Edit: Looks like a 2011 NEC change, but states "Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications" that Arc-Fault breakers need to be added. I don't know technically if a panel change is considered a branch circuit modification. You are most likely not under 2011 NEC, so it doesn't matter anyway.

I'm in Quebec Canada. Electrician didn't told me anything about upgrading to arc fault breakers for the bedroom or any other upgrades. They changed the mast, meter box, installed the new panel and wired in the new circuits.

 

[Falcon67]

Just a slight observation you could do with putting some distance between your networking equipment and that panel and its associated wiring

Should not be any issues with that if it's quality equipment. We've got network equipment in some really ****** environmental and electrical locations and it still works.

 

[danroy323]

Should not be any issues with that if it's quality equipment. We've got network equipment in some really ****** environmental and electrical locations and it still works.

It's been over 18 months with this setup and my phone and internet are working just fine!

 

[pattenp]

May be it's working just fine, but that rolled up coil of yellow network wire would be better off not being shoved between the two power cables. That's not a recommended way to route network cable. You should just use a short patch cable for the blue. Where does the yellow go?

It's been over 18 months with this setup and my phone and internet are working just fine!

 

[jeffmoss26]

Looks like it is just coiled up and doesn't go anywhere.

 

[kd4pbs]

For what it's worth, and I imagine it's not a code thing, but if I were you aren't too far along, you may want to put the highest current stuff up as close to the main breaker as possible. This reduces the amount of voltage drop across the whole power bus in the panel, and while it might not be very noticeable, the extra resistance of that bus bar will cause some measurable amount of voltage sag if a large current load is applied to the 100A breaker way down there at the bottom of the panel.
-Matt

 

[slacker garage shop]

For what it's worth, and I imagine it's not a code thing, but if I were you aren't too far along, you may want to put the highest current stuff up as close to the main breaker as possible. This reduces the amount of voltage drop across the whole power bus in the panel, and while it might not be very noticeable, the extra resistance of that bus bar will cause some measurable amount of voltage sag if a large current load is applied to the 100A breaker way down there at the bottom of the panel.
-Matt

Hahahahhaja. What??? Sorry had to.

 

[Falcon67]

Here's what you need for the neutral - what I used for the box the power company mounted on the house:

 

[kd4pbs]

Hahahahhaja. What??? Sorry had to.

Sorry - I know not everyone knows electronic theory... I hope this helps...

http://bit.ly/yR6fYc

 

[ishiboo]

Sorry - I know not everyone knows electronic theory... I hope this helps...

http://bit.ly/yR6fYc

Clearly he DOES understand electrical theory which is why he brought that up. Ohms law does apply to a bus and there is resistance on it.

However, in practice... the bus is too large for an appreciable voltage drop under rated currents, even with 100A flowing the length of the bus.

 

[kd4pbs]

Ahh - I thought he wrote "what?" because he didn't understand the theory. "appreciable" indeed, measurable though is what I was getting at. Where would you rather put your sensitive electronic equipment? No worries; I've made a wonderful living over the past 25 years that included sometimes correcting installation issues like this when people can't figure out why the Grass Valley edit controller keeps resetting when the 20-ton water chiller kicks in... just trying to contribute some "good engineering practice" that one cannot find in a code book.

 

[pattenp]

kd4pbs, one thing I think people should do is give their location when asking electrical questions because a lot of the time it will make a difference. I like your location info, it makes a big difference being in the Milky Way galaxy vs. the Andromeda galaxy.

 

[kd4pbs]

Thanks. Being concise and accurate is indeed a much under-appreciated virtue. So is having a sense of humor, and I appreciate that very much We wouldn't want a delivery man to show up at the right street address but in the wrong solar system now, would we?

 

[danroy323]

Looks like it is just coiled up and doesn't go anywhere.

Exactly, it was there to access the router when it was installed. I'll remove it.

 

[danroy323]

Here's what you need for the neutral - what I used for the box the power company mounted on the house:

Thanks for the pic Chris, I'll look it up at HD.

Dan

 

[Aceman]

Here's what you need for the neutral - what I used for the box the power company mounted on the house:

Why not a pvc LB?

You need a plastic bushing on that close ******.

 

[danroy323]

Thanks for the pic Chris, I'll look it up at HD.

Dan

I went to Home Depot and the guy there didn't have a clue of what I asked for... I'll try to find a part # maybe that will help.

 

[bassman]

where you put the breaker wont matter as far as voltage drop on the busbar

 

[ishiboo]

I went to Home Depot and the guy there didn't have a clue of what I asked for... I'll try to find a part # maybe that will help.

It's just a Square D neutral lug kit.

Home Depot has separate parts for the Homeline and QO, but I'm pretty sure they're the same part now and the packaging says both QO and Homeline on it now?

 

[danroy323]

It's just a Square D neutral lug kit.

Home Depot has separate parts for the Homeline and QO, but I'm pretty sure they're the same part now and the packaging says both QO and Homeline on it now?

Here in Canada I think we have less access to some electrical parts, they want us to have to pay an electrician. Everything is much more expensive too, we pay 2 times as much for a breaker than you do at Home Depot... Go to http://www.homedepot.com and try no to have an heart attack!