how do inspections/permits work in various areas?

[rieferman]

My pov has been.. it's a detached barn, I'm basically just repairing what's already there... therefore, fly under the radar and just do what I need to do and plead forgiveness later as needed. And I highly highly doubt anyone will ever look or care.

But it's been eating away at me anyways.

So I talked to our township code enforcement guy today. He's a nice guy that I've talked to on several other issues (when we did work in the house, we pulled permits etc.).

He said that since we're just repairing an existing structure, even running new circuits, and since the structure is detached and the foot print is under 1000 square feet, we're good to go. No permits or anything needed.

He also said that the township doesn't enforce electrical, but he had some "third party" resources he thought we could use if we wanted "peace of mind". He mentioned it can be useful for insurance purposes in some instances, but he wasn't sure about that. Suggested I call my insurance agent to see if it's necessary.

So, I was surprised that my covert operation need not be so covert.

Is that basically the way it works everywhere, or is it just a case of small town America?

 

[Bull]

In my town, you are supposed to pull a permit if you just do something small, like replace a window in your house. The town needs money, and it's run by radical misfits as well. Two strikes against any homeowner wanting to do stuff around their property.

Sounds like you live in a good area!

BTW, you were brave to tell the code guy what you had already done...what if he told you it was all illegal and needed to be inspected/possibly removed?!

 

[nate379]

Not sure around here. Most people don't bother with a permit unless it's a contractor.

 

[ddawg16]

It varies greatly from area to area.....

Here in LA it depends on which city you live in....my In-laws live in one of the 'nicer' south Bay cities (translation, higher house prices and better schools)...they need a permit to put on a new door.

I live in county area...sandwhiched between many of the nicer cities....I can replace a door or window without any issues....or even a plumbing issue...but if I re-route a water line...add one, add a circuit...etc, I need a permit. And for good reason....

If you buy a house....you want to know that any mods were done right....

The cost of the permit is not that bad...say I want to add one to two 110Vac outlets...I get a permit that is good for up to 10 outlets...it costs me about $50....when I'm done the guy inspects it....then later when my house burns down because of a wiring problem....my insurance covers it....but....if I added those outlets without a permit....insurance company says "sorry, but tough luck".

It cost me about $500 in permits for my new detached garage....but for the most part it's been worth it....I have gotten a lot of 'free' advice and suggestions from the inspector......and should I ever sell....my house is going to be worth a lot more because everything is to code and permitted.

Ok....so that answers your original question.....but I don't want you to think that you should pull permits....like the guy said, it's a detached garage....no one is living in it....and I'm willing to bet that your quality of work is as good if not better than a contractor....keep doing what your doing.....besides, you have us for advice...

 

[A_Pmech]

What's a permit?

I could build a skyscraper out back and the only thing I need is a septic permit. That's not really a permit, more of a gentleman's agreement / shake of the hand thing.

 

[35mastr]

Around here you need a permit for just about anything.

They actually drive around to try and catch people. If they see you doing work and you dont have a permit. They will red flag the job. Then all work will be stopped at that moment till the proper permits are in order.

Every time you pull one though. Property tax rises.

I do everything on the weekend or after 5:00 pm. Never had any issues.

 

[Bender78]

I always based my decision on pulling a permit for a job on whether or not the work in process will show from the road

The tax man would love to see every improvement, I'm sure.

 

[nate379]

How can they stop a job? What are they going to do, arrest you?

"what are you in for?".... ah... replacing a window.

Around here you need a permit for just about anything.

They actually drive around to try and catch people. If they see you doing work and you dont have a permit. They will red flag the job. Then all work will be stopped at that moment till the proper permits are in order.

Every time you pull one though. Property tax rises.

I do everything on the weekend or after 5:00 pm. Never had any issues.

 

[GearBeer]

It's a legal formality, allowing them to penalize you financially. What else would the local government want? If they put you in the county clink it costs them money.

 

[twostory]

In my area you need a permit for any real "building" (addition, sun room, etc)

For things like patio, driveway work, no permit needed (mostly)

For repair work, restoration work, no permit needed. (mostly, you may need an electrical permit if you modify the electric, plumbing probably needs a permit also)

Now if your break any rules, such as building in a set back without a permit, you will need a variance & a permit.

As Bender78 said, if you can not see it from the road, "out of sight, out of permit"

We do have "code enforcement" officers who drive around looking for building without permit. They have been driving by my house lately, but I think they are responding to a "nosy neighbor" two street over who hates my garage and keeps complaining "anonymously". The officer talked to my wife once, said someone called and he did not see anything wrong with our property. He did say the caller said my garage was "ugly" and did not fit the area.

I just got a variance approval last night and the variance board said my garage looks fine, and they would like a nice shop at their house also.

 

[kbs2244]

The requirements are very local.
Most often the wording is something to the effect of "anything that improves the value."
But the definition of that phrase varies all over the map.
Some say it has to be a permanent change.
An in ground pool needs a permit while an above ground does not.
Some say you have to add square footage, some say a new kitchen floor is enough.

BTW, not being able to see it from the road doesn’t work much any more.
Most counties are doing flyovers at least every 5 years if not sooner.
They compare the PICs from year to year for changes.

 

[Sammy7]

How can they stop a job? What are they going to do, arrest you?

"what are you in for?".... ah... replacing a window.

Well... They could make you tear it down. That's how they can stop you.

 

[rieferman]

Very interesting stuff.. All over the map as I would have guessed. Actually, within my own township, the opinions of various people of various levels of knowledge (from idiot to contractor) were all over the map too. Clear as mud right?

Bull wrote

BTW, you were brave to tell the code guy what you had already done...what if he told you it was all illegal and needed to be inspected/possibly removed?!

I was crafty with my language. Told him "I knew I'd need to stop by for the shed I was planning since that was brand new, and got to thinking about whether I'll need any permits for sistering new wood to old, or fixing the stairs in there or moving an outlet etc.". He's a good ol' boy and that was enough to make him think I was asking for permission to work (vs. nearly done with the work).

 

[35mastr]

How can they stop a job? What are they going to do, arrest you?

"what are you in for?".... ah... replacing a window.

They will fine you daily. Windows need a permit also. Even if they are direct replacement windows.

They will also see you in court if you do not comply.

 

[Falcon67]

What's a permit?

I could build a skyscraper out back and the only thing I need is a septic permit. That's not really a permit, more of a gentleman's agreement / shake of the hand thing.

Here I would just have to pay the city for a water and sewer tap. Permit? Not lately. I did call the city manager and ask when I built the shop in 1997 and he said "thanks for asking, no permit process yet. Please try to make it nice." No problem.

I've also never had any insurance agent, adjuster or other ask who did what work. When we lived in Lake worth and a wind storm tore a part off our new fence and slammed it into our new house, nobody asked who put the fence up or if there were permits pulled (me / none would be the answer). They just paid the claim. I got $500 for my missing shingles (4 ridge caps, fixed with saved scraps) and my neighbor -with zero missing shingles - got a $6000 check for a new roof. (he bought a car) Same insurance company, different adjuster. They just adjust our rates to account for the variance - they don't care who did what.

IIRC, in Ft. Worth the city codes are like most large cities in that technically you can't replace a wall socket without a permit. I re-did the wiring in my garage there. We later had the house upgraded with a lot of work including electrical. Contractor took out the required permits. The city inspector looked at the garage and asked who did the wiring. "Me". He looked it over and said "I should red tag it because you didn't pull a permit and you wouldn't be allowed anyway but you did a decent job so I'm going to overlook it." And I guarantee you I did better than the guy in the van, that listened to classical music all day, that had the permits, that put in the new 200 amp service. He left a rats nest in the attic and behind panels where the old breaker boxes used to be.

 

[Chris Adams]

Here, the permit is 400 bucks for most things. Like changing a toilet, adding a light switch in the garage, whatever.
It's about the money, not about safety, not about appearance.


On insurance;
Had some fence get damaged, claims adjuster wanted to know if it was permitted.
When the fence was built there were no permits required, as the city hadn't yet incorporated. So DUH, I told her it wasn't, and it didn't need it at the time.
She marked NOT PERMITED on the insurance claim.

But they paid it anyway. Too bad really. I was hoping for an excuse to drop that company.

 

[kwb]

Insurance pays if you didn't have permits so long as the insurance co knows what you had pre-loss.

Permits here are a Royal PITA - Shop took about 14wks from submission to approval and cost ~$2K, House remodel was about the same in time and was almost $3k+ ~$100 for the electrical.

Small stuff I haven't bothered with but when you add a 1500sf shop and take down 8 trees to add 750sf to the house you are pretty likely to end up with code enforcement to deal with... and if you get caught the permit fees double and you have risks of having to open things up to prove you did what you needed to do for code compliance.

 

[benjamming]

The only permit we had to had when we built our house in '06-'07 was a 'septic tank permit'. That's it. I even buried a 1000-gal propane tank. No inspections whatsoever. No certificate of occupancy - good thing too b/c we moved in before the cabinets were installed. We had carpet, tile, & hardwood down but no flooring in the kitchen (slate). Since there were no cabinets, we had no sinks except for a mop sink in the laundry room & garage. We had no cooktop or oven since no cabinets either. Anyway, in regards to the permit issue, this is the way it should be IMHO. The only permit we had to get is what really could, might, possibly, affect someone else - sewage.

 

[Falcon67]

A city inspector didn't want to issue a certificate of occupancy for a new building on campus because some minor landscaping in the front wasn't finished. OMG, bare dirt. That was with trucks waiting in the parking lot to unload into the building. Some people called some people and suddenly it's good to go. It's the little things that make you nuts.

 

[35mastr]

Also the permits here are based on what the total cost is for the job. Then they take there percentage.

I remember when I did a driveway encrochment I had to put up a 1000.00 bond for a whole year.

 

[mhm993]

My town stinks about everything permit wise, but atleast they only charged me 250 bucks for the detached garage, and sent me the permit promptly. They checked framing and electric, only.

The surveyor, on the other hand, took arms, legs, and nuts (2 of each) for the related surveys. Couldn't convince them that since they had the last certifed survey (they purchased the files of the prior local surveyor), that I shouldn't have to pay for them to walk the entire property. I'm sure they just updated the old survey, even though they claimed they were legally forced to resurvey the entire 4 acre property.

 

[Falcon67]

The surveyor, on the other hand, took arms, legs, and nuts (2 of each) for the related surveys. Couldn't convince them that since they had the last certifed survey (they purchased the files of the prior local surveyor), that I shouldn't have to pay for them to walk the entire property. I'm sure they just updated the old survey, even though they claimed they were legally forced to resurvey the entire 4 acre property.

I feel that pain. When we did a re-fi on our house, we had it surveyed. IIRC, it was about $350 - not too bad. This apparently was the first time the property was subjected to a "real" survey. What we found was that the house was not even square on the lot and that the fence was in the wrong place on the west. Also, in the alley on the east almost all the fences in our block are in the wrong spot. Part of the roof of our house was technically on the neighbors property to the east. No problem, talk to the neighbor - he doesn't care, I pay for the paper work to fix the deeds and he'll sign off. So I call the surveyor and they come right back - like 5 days later. That was another $125 to mark a 120' tall triangle with a 4' base and two corners already marked. BUT - I gained nearly 8' on the alley side to make the shop bigger (coming soon). That was the extra cool part of the deal.