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How do you determine your costs?

bdbull

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I just got kicked in the gut today. Met with a contractor to talk about the numbers he came up with, and I was floored. We are looking to build a 38x30, 3 car garage with a second floor for storage. No finishings on the inside, just framing and electrical. Pretty big driveway removal and repour. The final number was just above 87k. I was not expecting that. The concrete work alone was 27k (7 for the garage, 10 for demo, and 10 for new pour). I am completely devastated because it seems like our dream is now completely out of reach. Just feel really, really terrible right now.

I know it's only one quote, and I should get more before I decide on anything. But, how did you guys determine what your costs would be in order to decide what to build? Did you just take your idea to a couple of contractors and see what numbers they came up with? I feel like I'm wasting somebody's time if I do that.

Any help or advice is appreciated as I'm just really bummed about the whole thing right now.
 
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ssdave

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I would do it by doing a detailed takeoff, and then putting both labor and material prices to that takeoff. For example:

Clearing site and excavate for footings; level for floor: $1500
Calculate cubic yards of concrete, figure at $350/cy: in your case: 136' x 4.5' /27 = 23 cy x 350 = $8000 footing cost.
Calculate floor cost: .33' x 38 x 30 x $400 = $5600
Exterior Sheathing: 136 x 12' high /32 = 50 sheets x $18 = $900
Exterior Studs: 136 /1.25 = 110 studs x $10.93 = $12
Roofing: 42 x 34 x 1.15 = 17 squares at $350 = $5800 roofing


etc, etc, etc. add about 10 to 15% to your materials for waste. Make a guess at the labor for the framing and such.

Another way is to take a generic $ per square foot, as ducksface has put out there. That works if you have good values for your local area, and your job is just like the jobs those values came from.

For a comparison, I'm building a house in eastern Oregon at the moment. I am the general contractor on it, and doing a lot of the work myself. Attached to that house is a 36x48 3 car garage. 11 foot ceilings with scissor trusses going up to about 16 in the center. back 18 foot is 2 story using attic trusses for a 14 foot wide attic. Construction is 2x6 frame, hardi-plank, architectural shingles. Three single wide doors, two at 8 foot and one at 11. I did the footings for the garage myself, and doing the finish work. I paid to have it framed. Did the roof prep, and paid to have it shingled. Bought the doors for half price from someone that had ordered wrong size. Backfilled and compacted the gravel under the floor myself. Will place the rebar and hydronic heat piping and foam myself, but pay to have the concrete placed. My estimate sheet, which is about 95% complete with either completed work, purchases, or bids at this point is at about $68,000. That does not include the driveway which I will do myself with paver; that would easily be another $8K. That does include contracting the sheetrock; if I do that myself it will save me about $5000. I'm doing the electrical myself, and the interior framing, the insulating, the hydronic heat, the garage door installs, the painting, the trim. The things that I contracted out are the rough framing, the roof shingles, the concrete floor placement/finish, the siding, and digging the footing trenches. All the rest of the labor is mine; the materials are a large part of it.

A fully finished, quality shop is expensive. Even scrounging for cheap materials and doing almost all the labor myself, I'll be into mine about $40 per square foot. The $20 per square foot numbers you seen out there are either bare bones pole barn type buildings with owner labor, or delusional.

I'd usually estimate $65 to $85 for a 2 story unfinished garage/shop, with electrical and concrete driveway. I"d push that up to about $110 for a finished space.

In your case, that'd equate to $74,000 to $96,000; so your bid was in the right range.
Your concrete seems low, but the demo seems high. For that cost, I'd buy a concrete saw, prybar, sledgehammer and jackhammer and do it myself. 3 weeks evenings and weekends and you would earn about $6000; the $4000 would go to haul away costs and tools. Add $1000 of rental for a bobcat and it'd be a lot easier. I pay about $250 a day to rent it for a half day Saturday and all day Sunday. You can get roll off dumpsters to haul the debris away; just don't fill them too full. I demo'd out a septic tank, a 16 x 6 foundation wall and footings, and a 6 x 8 footing by hand on my house, I had under 8 hours total in it, and paid $450 to haul away the debris. That 8 hours was in about 6 sessions; it's hard on an old man to swing a 12 pound hammer for very long.

A third way is to just get quotes from 3 or 4 contractors, and see how they compare out.

The answer to the question you didn't ask is that a shop is just plain expensive, either in dollars or in your own time and skilled labor, or in both. Most of us are deluding ourselves if we think it is cost effective to build these larger garages/shops to do a few car repairs or projects. It's an expensive hobby.
 

ard

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And where would this be? Not your street address, but just a hint to allow folks to evaluate your situation for you...

Also, maybe some specs? Frost depth, full second floor? Exterior finish?

Ive seem some amazing numbers from contractors- hoping they get an idiot/desperate person. Folks here will get you re-calibrated and you can try again.
 

jd_1138

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How long is the driveway? Could perhaps wait on that. I'd get a few estimates from other builders. It's how they get work, so don't feel like you're wasting their time.
 
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matt_i

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Full 2nd floor or attic storage trusses. Big cost difference there.

Do you have to do the new driveway at the same time? That looks to be $20k right there.

The demo you could do by renting a saw, a jackhammer and having access to a pickup truck. The rest is just grunt work.

Depending on your financial point of view, the overall condition of the economy could be different in a couple of years, that would generally increase competition.
 

Playwme

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That’s basically the size of a house. Take off the 20k for driveway and $67k for a closed up house frame is probably pretty close. It’s not the 90’s any more. Things cost a fair bit more than they used to. You might have to try for single story or alternate building methods.

10k seems a lot for a driveway demo. I wouldn’t do as someone else above suggested and rent a saw and jackhammer, but I would look for a cheaper option. My new driveway was about a $10k pour. Demo of the old concrete was about $1000, including dump fees. If he took it to the the regular dump as mixed waste it’s $130 a tonne. Do a quick sort and take the clean concrete to the concrete recyclers and it was $10 a tonne.
 
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barnee

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In many parts of the country construction costs are insane, mostly due to a huge shortage of skilled workers. Contractors are limited to how much work they can undertake and it shows in the pricing.

My bids for my 28 by 38 shell came in all over $200k. I had to GC it myself, buy my materials, use a lot of craigslist labor and self perform what I could. Even doing that my shell came in at $130k.
 

laser3kw

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The concrete work alone was 27k (7 for the garage, 10 for demo, and 10 for new pour).
Is there an existing building or obstruction they have to remove? what are they "demo-ing"? Or is demo = site prep?
And as others asked, where are you located? Big difference driven by location and environment.
 

850xpeps

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I’m building a 34x34 right soon. Plan garage 2 overhead doors and 1 man door and 2 windows. Material cost with vinyl siding for him is gonna be about 15k. My labour will be 11k. No electrical nothing inside the shop. I did the slab this summer for him. My labour price on the slab was cheap at $3500. The rock and cement and rebar was around the 8k mark.

So looking at roughly 37,500. No second floor or even storage attic. Add 10% to material if contractor is supplying and unless you know what your doing just let them buy it because it will cost you that 10% if you forget stuff. That way if somethings wrong it’s on them. I’m not sure how prices are where you are. I also never included any machine rent in my prices as he supplied the machines.

Things are a shock but people don’t realize that if 4 skilled guys show up to work it costs over a 1k a day for the contractor to have those guys there. Wages, taxes blah blah blah.
 
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bdbull

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Couple answers to some questions you guys have asked so far.

- I'm in Georgia, north of Atlanta.

- The quote is for a full second floor. Although now I'm reconsidering this and am leaning towards attic trusses.

- Exterior finish is hardiplank siding.

- Driveway is roughly 3k square feet.

- Demo cost is removing the existing driveway. It is in really bad shape. The driveway can actually come later if we need to.

I'm beginning to think I am just delusional. I would love to do it myself, not only to keep costs at a minimum, but I enjoy building things and getting the satisfaction of seeing something completed that I did. However, I'm extremely scared of screwing something up. As I keep saying to my wife, I just don't know what I don't know.

Thanks!
 

chaosracing

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Couple answers to some questions you guys have asked so far.

- I'm in Georgia, north of Atlanta.

- The quote is for a full second floor. Although now I'm reconsidering this and am leaning towards attic trusses.

- Exterior finish is hardiplank siding.

- Driveway is roughly 3k square feet.

- Demo cost is removing the existing driveway. It is in really bad shape. The driveway can actually come later if we need to.

I'm beginning to think I am just delusional. I would love to do it myself, not only to keep costs at a minimum, but I enjoy building things and getting the satisfaction of seeing something completed that I did. However, I'm extremely scared of screwing something up. As I keep saying to my wife, I just don't know what I don't know.

Thanks!

The Hardi Plank is expensive to begin with, add into it they are probably sheathing the walls 100% and at $16 a 4x8 sheet (for plain OSB) and right there is a huge cost. Add into that it sounds like you are going traditional stick framing and that adds alot as well. As mentioned above, you are pretty much building a second house.

Just for a comparison, I am building a 26'x38'x16' pole building, unfinished interior (except the ceiling panels will be installed) 4 windows, 1 man door, 1 18'x10' overhead door and the cost is $21,000.00 and then around $4000 for concrete floor and apron. I will be doing all electrical and have no design yet so no cost as of now. No plumbing in it except maybe a PEX infloor heat. My concrete cost might be more once I figure how to tie into the existing driveway.
 

bepjrfan

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I think the second floor is adding to your costs significantly. I built a 28x40 with 10' walls this summer for roughly $21K including all site work and concrete, only cost left is the muding and taping and heater.

Putting up a garage is alot easier than you think. I had a few buddies help and knocked it out over a couple months this summer, only thing I hired out was the slab($6300). If you do your research prior to building, when it comes time to knock it out, you will have no problems. This will save you quite a bit of money. The cheapest quote I had for building was close to $35k for just a shell of a garage and that didn't even include concrete.
 

glentre

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Don't be afraid to get more prices. That's the only way you will be able to compare. For my 30 x 38 three car, 12/12 roof and full attic above with two dormers, I would have been delighted with a price of $87K. Costs will vary considerably depending on where you are in the country and how busy the contractors are in your area at the time.

I have mentioned the need for proper plans and specs on several recent threads regarding working with contractors and will continue to do so because I've seen so many problems and arguments discussed on this forum because of lack of or mis-communication with generals and subs. Do you have complete detailed plans and specifications for every aspect of the project with exact descriptions of what the general and subs are required to do? If you don't, the contractors will not be sure about what they will be responsible for and will cover their butts with a price to reflect that unknown. It's like telling someone else to go buy you a car with no details communicated. Sure, you will end up with a car but most certainly not what you had in mind.

Also, if you are not an experienced contractor yourself, it would be wise to communicate with your general that the specs are open to review with the objective of preparing final paperwork reflecting what you require and what the contractor is accustomed to building. This will save you money, mis-understandings, arguments and possible legal problems during the progress of the job.

Glen
 

howpeculiar

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I think the cost sounds pretty reasonable. Not sure if you have a lot of other peoples numbers to work with, but those look similar enough to what I would expect. There are a lot of things you can do to knock that number down, and maybe you can space the construction in stages over the next year or two...

On a 28x71 pole building with 14' interior ceiling, just framing, exterior sheeting and 4 overhead doors was $35K. Concrete was another $12K, and the in floor heat was another $12K. Over $65K so far, and it is not finished, and does not have a second story. I could use pole barn sheeting, which is WAY cheaper, so I don't think you quote is too high at all.
 
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Falcon67

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Even here that 3K sq/ft driveway is between 15 and 18K or so for flat work, not counting demo. Last demo and flat work I've seen lately was at the drag strip and that was around $9 sq/ft. Demo out asphalt, base, rebar, concrete - about 3 times the size of your driveway.
 

finn

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When I built my garage, I thought a second floor would be net, until I got the quote, which was way over my budget. Eliminating the attic trusses and going with storage trusses brought things back to a manageable cost.

With the lower cost attic trusses, I could eliminate the stairs and go with a lower pitch roof. Electric costs go down too.

In the end, I should have used standard trusses, since I think I’ve been up there twice in the last two years.

What thickness slab did you specify. People here love 6” slabs, but 4” to 6” is a 50% increase
 

850xpeps

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Hardi plank is twice the price for material as regular vinyl and not much more than expensive vinyl siding. The install of hardi cost money because a good job is one consuming on gable ends. You don’t slide the siding into j trim. A gable end can be 3 times the amount of time to install compared to vinyl. Something to think about. Don’t sacrifice upstairs space if you want it. Sacrifice somewhere else that can be changed later on. Decide what you want then get quotes.
 

Whitworth

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For the structure it comes in at $59 a square foot, not unreasonable at all for a garage. Unless bare bones electrical (lights and a few receptacles), that will put it as more than just an outbuilding, so even less surprised by the quote.

Just live with the old driveway for a few years ?
 

audioworks04

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I would look into only demo and replace of the necessary part of the driveway and then get the rest when funds allow, but I do not know if that works with your layout.
I would say 10k for demo is very high and could very likely find a second contractor to do just the demo for significantly cheaper. 10k for a driveway, must be fairly large?
 
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Kevin54

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If you know anything about construction at all, it is really hard to screw up a square or rectangular building. Also don't drop everything into one contractors hands because it will always be more expensive than piece mealing different aspects of the job out. And if you know how to basically frame things, then price all of your materials out yourself. I designed my garage, had about a half a pickup load of scrap, and no extra lumber left over. I did hire a person to frame it as I couldn't do it myself, but I contracted everything. When you know what materials cost upfront, someone else can't put the screws to you on materials.
 

Automobilist

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What price did you expect it to be quoted at? And how did you arrive at that estimate?

My current garage being built is 36 X 60, nicely done to match our barn, (photo attached) and complement the house. I'm having it built by a good builder, for a contract price 0f $105,000. That includes a 5" concrete floor, 110V & 220V electrical, high bay lighting, insulated & drywalled. Hardiboard type siding, architectural shingles, two cupolas. Seven good size opening windows, four roll up garage doors and an entry door. And a 12' concrete apron across the 60' front.

I'm not doing much, if anything myself. My time is much more valuable running my company, than pounding nails & climbing ladders, etc.

I'm sure you can get it done cheaper, like a metal warehouse building, if that's your priority. I wanted mine to add an "estate" ambience to our property.
 

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Smoker

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I just finished up a 30x30 with attic trusses and full staircase giving me a 30 x 12 room upstairs, full height. Everything done, including gas, sewer, water and a 100amp 220v service came in right around $27k.

I think you are getting hosed.

I would dump the GC if you have one, break out the work into packages and sub it out. I subbed the concrete and roofing, did everything else myself. Ordered all material direct from the suppliers and such. Its not as big a PITA as you think and you learn alot.

I learnt after watching the guys move the mud around and finish it I'll never even attempt concrete. After watching the roofers wander around on the top of the 12' walls setting trusses that's the best money I spent.
I learnt vinyl siding is really easy and no even close to the brain surgeon prices I was being quoted to install it.

I also learnt one guy can install a perfectly balances 16x8 garage door in 4 hours. Truly impressive.
 

WhiffySpark

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Kind of hard to say 10k for demonis high considering no one has any idea what they’re dealing with.
 

6768rogues

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I was going to build a second floor for a game room and changed my mind. In the winter it would be too cold, in the summer it would be too hot, and it would cost too much to heat and cool it. It would just get full of junk that I don't need. I built a bigger building without the second floor.
 

jbwilkins

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Couple answers to some questions you guys have asked so far.

- I'm in Georgia, north of Atlanta.....

- Driveway is roughly 3k square feet.


Thanks!

If by 'north of Atlanta' you mean in a rual setting, that can drive up your costs vs. in a larger city....material costs and labor will typically be higher because they're are less options.....The problem, today in a major city, setting housing, in general, is on fire and finding labor can be hard/expensive......

BTW Some GC's don't have a clue when putting an estimate together they just use a 'rule of thumb' and CYA. Mine was a good guy, but I did a lot of 'hand holding' with him, he missed specifications, had some products ordered wrong, etc. As he was the only person willing to quote the garage out of 4 GC's I called, I went with him because I had a good 'feeling'........

I doesn't hurt that I've been in residential construction for 25 years.... you learn a few things, especially when you started as an estimator....
 
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trashmanssd

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Location, Location, Location is every thing. Where I am is relativity expensive to get contractor work done (its not Manhattan expensive but still above avg). My 36 x 28 Shell with electricity, very nice vinyl siding, walk up attic 36 x 16 with a 3 window dormer and 1 gabble window, 3 windows and man door down stairs, (2) 10 x 8 over head doors, architect shingles, includes site work and foundation and floor was about 75K. This year I spent another 7k re shaping and adding driveway to it (asphalt), 5K sheet rocking down stairs, 4K insulating, 12K upgrading electrical and adding a heat pump system for heat and ac, 4K prepping for sheet rock and adding a wall and man door at top the stairs, 3K adding some nice metal cabinets.

Get 3 quotes and see what the market looks like, if you can afford the shell hold off on the driveway work. Just make sure your going to stay there and enjoy it because you are flushing 50-90 percent of that money down the drain when you move.
 
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bdbull

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Thanks so much for all the replies and information. Couple more questions and answers for some of you guys.

- For those who did work themselves, how did you find suppliers for materials? Google?

- I'm in Forsyth county. It's north of Atlanta, but by no means a rural setting.

- Waiting on the driveway might be an option if I can't find anyone else to do it for a better price.

- A coworker suggested calling the big box stores and getting a list of recommended contractors to get quotes from so we at least have more information to work with.

- What is the space difference between attic and storage trusses? We really just want room to put all the **** that is cluttering up the basement so we can finish out the basement.
 

hoppsxc140

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Get as many quotes as possible, I when I built my 36x60 pole building I called 5 builders. 3 took plans and 2 returned prices, one was 25G and change the other was 58. I called the 58 to make sure he understood I only wanted the shell and 2 man doors and he confirmed. Signed with the low guy the following day.
 

holdover

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"I think the second floor is adding to your costs significantly. I built a 28x40 with 10' walls this summer for roughly $21K including all site work and concrete, only cost left is the muding and taping and heater. " This is more in line with what things should cost, excluding most the labor if having someone build it. The cost of labor depends on where you live, in my area a fair price is 30-35 per hour for an experienced framer. In the above example 28 X 40, 3 guys working 40 hrs each should be able to put it up and under roof in 5 days. Concrete here in SW VA is going for 130 a yard. My finishers get 40 per yard poured and finished, you set the forms and have it pour ready. As to footers , when required we pour them ourselves and block up to the slab level as needed. Check around and see if a couple of guys that do this for a living would do your project on the side.
best of luck and remember building a garage is not rocket science,
 

stm317

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- What is the space difference between attic and storage trusses? We really just want room to put all the **** that is cluttering up the basement so we can finish out the basement.

Why spend a bunch of money to make room for "all the **** that is cluttering up the basement"? If it's "****", or "Clutter", and got shoved down into the basement because it never gets used, then just get rid of it. Sell it to somebody that will use it and use any money that you can get to help fund the building. Build the shop for shop stuff, not for storing a ton of **** that you never use and don't really want or need.
 

finn

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Why spend a bunch of money to make room for "all the **** that is cluttering up the basement"? If it's "****", or "Clutter", and got shoved down into the basement because it never gets used, then just get rid of it. Sell it to somebody that will use it and use any money that you can get to help fund the building. Build the shop for shop stuff, not for storing a ton of **** that you never use and don't really want or need.

Exactly.

I mixed the stairs and attic truss idea in favor of storage trusses to save money during construction.

The junk I put upstairs just accumulates there.

I would have been better off forgetting construction of an attic storage space and investing the cost of the storage trusses in the stock market.

At least it would have made liquidation easier for my kids when I expire.
 

barnee

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If you decide to GC it yourself you need a good set of plans for bidding and permits. I pulled the permits in my name but not sure if your area allows this.

For foundations and slabs, its not hard finding companies to perform this but have them include any excavating, backfilling etc. Better to find firms that self perform this part.

For the building, check with the local lumber yards (not HD, etc) since a few of them have framing services. I used BMC, but I know that 84 lumber does this as well in certain parts of the country. That way you can buy your materials and have them install it. They can also do your windows, doors and siding, or you can find others to do this.

Roofers are easy to find.

I used craigslist for my electrical and plumbing. You can usually find good people that work on their own at decent rates and they allowed me to assist to lower costs.

I will say that being your own GC will save a lot of money, but be prepared for dedicating a lot of time to do this.
 

yeldogt

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Everything cost more vs what was expected ... it's the nature of building.

You can't say -- you are getting hosed and then add -- I acted as the general and did much of the work myself? As if that's the same thing as having it built and being handed the keys.

Some people can't or don't have the time to take on a big project ... also, building can be very stressful .. some are not cut out for it.
 

bczygan

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Detailed construction documents (Drawings and Specifications and Material selections).

Accurate and detailed takeoff and estimate.

Detailed contracts.

Detailed itemized bids from multiple qualified contractors.

Detailed knowledge by owner.

Bill
 

Ro_Ja Boy

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This makes me nervous about the quote I'll get back from the potential GC for my garage build. Anyone willing to look at my engineering plans and let me know if I'm in the right ballpark of what to expect?
 

Smoker

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Suppliers I asked around and googled alot.

Found a local a lumber yard and truss mfctr all in one and they were epic to deal with. Concrete guy was a friend of a friend that did residential on the side. His day job was pouring concrete at air force bases and airports for a massive contractor that also owned their own ready mix plants so I got top quality work and paid for the truck loads directly using his discount.
Roofer was a co-workers son that roofs for a living so paid him directly, purchased the materials directly and saved all the BS markups you would get with a GC.
Siding and trim I googled the local wholesalers and purchased direct, installed it myself. They even custom made the aluminum garage door trim in one piece for me.

Of ALL the stuff, the worst was finding a garage door company. I went through SEVEN (yes 7...) companies before I found one that actually responded and didn't think their doors were made of Unobtainium. Once actually wanted me to pay them a fee for them to come out and do the estimate.
 
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bdbull

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Why spend a bunch of money to make room for "all the **** that is cluttering up the basement"? If it's "****", or "Clutter", and got shoved down into the basement because it never gets used, then just get rid of it. Sell it to somebody that will use it and use any money that you can get to help fund the building. Build the shop for shop stuff, not for storing a ton of **** that you never use and don't really want or need.

It's technically not ****. It's things that go in storage: kids' clothes, holiday decorations, boxes of books (my wife is a teacher), etc. So not stuff to throw out, sell, or give away, just things that are infrequently used.

If you decide to GC it yourself you need a good set of plans for bidding and permits. I pulled the permits in my name but not sure if your area allows this.


Detailed construction documents (Drawings and Specifications and Material selections).

What kind of plans do I need to get? I don't know the proper terminology to be asking for. We had a designer sketch up our plans and I told him I wanted enough detail to give to someone and say, "build this." What we got was total ****. I could have done it myself if I took the time to learn AutoCAD.

What kind of person delivers these plans? Architect, GC, Lumber yard salesman?
 
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