How do you torque?

[garfunkle24]

I'm not Elroy, but Wayne hopes when you torqing those torque to yield bolts, that you've also replaced those bolts. They're designed to be replaced after each use.

Thanks for bringing that up but yes, of course i know that they have to be replaced. I also know that they have to be ordered by specific part# rather than just type of bolt. I just meant that they wern't made differently to a 'regular' bolt.

Hope that clarifys it.

g24

 

[dreaminbimmers]

How important is this with wheels? I work at a dealership and the way I was taught was to just take them all off in one go, and it looks like most of the employees do the same. I actually leave one loosened holding the wheel on until I know the wheel is loose from the hub. I have not seen them work on water pumps, cylinder heads, etc as much so I'm not sure what there method is for that.

When I put them on I was taught to screw the bolts on by hand and then use the impact wrench to tighten them at full torque, in a star pattern. I spoke with one tech some time after I started doing this job and he mentioned going around a second time to make sure the wheel was on straight. I can see how it could not be on there right or the first one may not be torqued the same as the last, so I always go a second time.

I've never had any trouble with this, but I'm wondering if it would be considered good practice.

I would suspect that wheels, more specifically front rotors and hubs are less prone to damage from taking the lug nuts off in one go than say a cylinder head. It seems like pretty standard practice for people to do it this way. However, tightening torque is a different story. There is a huge variation in torque specs for different vehicles. If I recall correctly the wheels on my Jetta require 81 ft lbs. and the wheels on my vanagon require 123 ft lbs. Over torquing can have unwanted side effects such as warped rotors, stretched or broken wheel studs, and prematurely worn bearings/hubs. All of which may not become immediately apparent.

I always use a torque wrench to check lug nuts. The key is not to over torque initially with the impact. Your torque wrench does not know the difference between a lug nut that is right at spec and one that is over torqued. It clicks all the same.

 

[J.A.F.E.]

Generally torque values are also specified in the manuals as dry or lubed. If lubed the lube is usually specified also.

I am looking at a chart that shows correction multipliers for various lubes and platings over dry unplated steel. They run from 0.45 to 1.85 in this chart. I don't have time to look up more specific sites right now.

ARP has some good general information on their tech page

http://www.arp-bolts.com/Tech/Tech.html

They also recommend five tightening/loosening cycles for new bolts when not measuring stretch.

~Steve

 

[dwilliams35]

I pretty much always work them up in several passes: lot of cast iron and shaft-compression couplings that HAVE to have the tightening sequence followed in order to correctly seat. Thus, it's force of habit to do that with everything. You'll pretty regularly see that if you make another pass you'll have to further tighten "previous" bolts: function of the reverse of the exhaust manifold already mentioned, with the load of two bolts being applied to one.

 

[tatra]

bunch of high falutin fancy pants answers ifn ya ask me.............rule of thumb to never fail.........tighten til it breaks , then back off half a turn......................next time you torque a fastener., notice that from finger preload it turns approximatly 90 degrees...........used to be the method of torquing duetz air cooled diesels.........in 30 degree increments..........

 

[Mike F]

I always thought that you tighten finger tight and then smoothly torque to spec. I was told that fastener would require more force to get started turning from a half-tightened state and that this would affect the final torque value. Of course this seems only relevant when doing fine work, otherwise I would assume it doesn't matter much.
A quick search turned up http://www.boltscience.com/pages/tighten.htm but I see there is lots of other stuff out there for anyone who is interested.

 

[olds88]

I'm the only one where I work that gives a **** enough to torque lugs nuts.........

The other day I was torquing the lugnuts on a 2007 Lexus GS (or something from the alphabet soup) and the stud twisted apart. My guess would be that at some point previously was overtorqued, somewhat unlikely on such a new car, or the studs from the factory are defective, a good chance on a car made overseas........?

 

[chammyman]

olds88 your a muppet.

 

[nissan_crawler]

How important is this with wheels? I work at a dealership and the way I was taught was to just take them all off in one go, and it looks like most of the employees do the same. I actually leave one loosened holding the wheel on until I know the wheel is loose from the hub. I have not seen them work on water pumps, cylinder heads, etc as much so I'm not sure what there method is for that.

When I put them on I was taught to screw the bolts on by hand and then use the impact wrench to tighten them at full torque, in a star pattern. I spoke with one tech some time after I started doing this job and he mentioned going around a second time to make sure the wheel was on straight. I can see how it could not be on there right or the first one may not be torqued the same as the last, so I always go a second time.

I've never had any trouble with this, but I'm wondering if it would be considered good practice.

You make me want to cry. You know how many warped rotors you've probably caused? This is HORRIBLE practice. Snug them up with an impact, that's it. Then get a damn torque wrench and do the job right. The lug nuts MUST move when you go to torque them. If they don't, loosen them up and start over.

Secondly, please walk up to the tech that told you that and smack him across the face. Jerks like that are what cause us poor folk to spend more money.

I'm the only one where I work that gives a **** enough to torque lugs nuts.........

The other day I was torquing the lugnuts on a 2007 Lexus GS (or something from the alphabet soup) and the stud twisted apart. My guess would be that at some point previously was overtorqued, somewhat unlikely on such a new car, or the studs from the factory are defective, a good chance on a car made overseas........?

olds88 your a muppet.

x2. If anything, the ******** studs are higher quality than "American" (as if any "american" company uses "american" studs). Some freaking lube and tire monkey rattled them on until they stopped spinning. I had some jackass do that to my mom's CRV when I bought new tires for her car, since she loaned it to me for a month. I walked in as he was "finishing up" and rattling the holy hell out of those tiny studs. I walked back into the store, found the store manager, and told him to call a rollback and have it delivered to the Honda dealer for new wheel studs. We went out to the shop, I handed the ape the factory lugnut tool and told him to have a wack at it. He couldn't get them off, how the hell is my 60 year old, 130 lb mom supposed to do it? That $160 tire change cost them around $400. "We'll just loosen them up." Like hell you will, those studs are WAY past their yield, no way my mom was driving on them.

 

[Moose-LandTran]

Wow, mark this down boys: Elroy spoke in the first person!

He must be having an in-to-body experience.

 

[eschoendorff]

You make me want to cry. You know how many warped rotors you've probably caused? This is HORRIBLE practice. Snug them up with an impact, that's it. Then get a damn torque wrench and do the job right. The lug nuts MUST move when you go to torque them. If they don't, loosen them up and start over.

Secondly, please walk up to the tech that told you that and smack him across the face. Jerks like that are what cause us poor folk to spend more money.





x2. If anything, the ******** studs are higher quality than "American" (as if any "american" company uses "american" studs). Some freaking lube and tire monkey rattled them on until they stopped spinning. I had some jackass do that to my mom's CRV when I bought new tires for her car, since she loaned it to me for a month. I walked in as he was "finishing up" and rattling the holy hell out of those tiny studs. I walked back into the store, found the store manager, and told him to call a rollback and have it delivered to the Honda dealer for new wheel studs. We went out to the shop, I handed the ape the factory lugnut tool and told him to have a wack at it. He couldn't get them off, how the hell is my 60 year old, 130 lb mom supposed to do it? That $160 tire change cost them around $400. "We'll just loosen them up." Like hell you will, those studs are WAY past their yield, no way my mom was driving on them.

did they actually replace the studs? That kind of BS really pisses me off...


ps... to answer the original question, "How do you torque?"

I torque in the early morning while wearing a cowboy hat.

 

[Uncle Buck]

did they actually replace the studs? That kind of BS really pisses me off...


ps... to answer the original question, "How do you torque?"

I torque in the early morning while wearing a cowboy hat.

So do the fuzzy slippers get worn with the hat? Oh yea, please tell me you are not putting spurs to the Mrs!

 

[Treeman]

Don't torque me off buddy

Ok lets look at this

Lets say you have an assembly with a single fastener. What good is it to sneak up on it. Slam the full torque to it in one hit !

I can think of at least one reason to sneak up on it.....I witnessed a damaged wood chipper bolt spec'ed at 300 ft. lbs..

The manufacturers of micrometer click wrenches recommend "exercising" them after long storage periods to spread the internal lubrication.

I never trust a stored clicker right out of the cabinet. Clickers have been known to mal-function, ie not click. By sneaking up on a fastener, you can "exercise" it and verify that it is indeed clicking before you go up to full torque. No, I am not paranoid!

Another tidbit of info to add to this thread. A net search will reveal that torque values with a wrench can vary up to +/- 30% (the common consensus). Supposedly, design engineers account for this. The argument of the accuracy of one wrench over another by 1% is moot.

 

[olds88]

You make me want to cry. You know how many warped rotors you've probably caused? This is HORRIBLE practice. Snug them up with an impact, that's it. Then get a damn torque wrench and do the job right. The lug nuts MUST move when you go to torque them. If they don't, loosen them up and start over.

Secondly, please walk up to the tech that told you that and smack him across the face. Jerks like that are what cause us poor folk to spend more money.

I agree with that statement 100%

Where I work my boss says "I've been putting lug nuts on for 20 years with just an impact blah blah blah" and believe it or not he acts like I'm wasting his time and doing something wrong torquing lug nuts to spec.

 

[nissan_crawler]

did they actually replace the studs? That kind of BS really pisses me off...


ps... to answer the original question, "How do you torque?"

I torque in the early morning while wearing a cowboy hat.

Yep, they had it hauled to the dealer and all studs and lug nuts replaced. They didn't like it, but I told them they could deal with me, or they could deal with a lawyer and the media, their choice. Apparently they thought it was easier to deal with me.

 

[TNToy]

For instance When torqueing Head Cylinder or a ball joints,How do you Torque?

Those are vastly different.

Cylinder heads, flywheels, torque converters, rods/mains, oil pumps, cams... With a clicker, in whatever steps the manual recommends. Same for any following angle-toruqe.

Ball joints? Measured in minutes-of-impact. *shrug*

Wheels? Torque stick. Quick zip of the impact to seat them all, then run around 'em in a star pattern. After the star, I go around in a circle. Not for any fancy reason - I just managed to miss one once, and it fell off on the customers drive home. The circle makes certain they're all tight.

 

[Orson_Yancey]

You make me want to cry. You know how many warped rotors you've probably caused? This is HORRIBLE practice. Snug them up with an impact, that's it. Then get a damn torque wrench and do the job right. The lug nuts MUST move when you go to torque them. If they don't, loosen them up and start over.

Secondly, please walk up to the tech that told you that and smack him across the face. Jerks like that are what cause us poor folk to spend more money.





x2. If anything, the ******** studs are higher quality than "American" (as if any "american" company uses "american" studs). Some freaking lube and tire monkey rattled them on until they stopped spinning. I had some jackass do that to my mom's CRV when I bought new tires for her car, since she loaned it to me for a month. I walked in as he was "finishing up" and rattling the holy hell out of those tiny studs. I walked back into the store, found the store manager, and told him to call a rollback and have it delivered to the Honda dealer for new wheel studs. We went out to the shop, I handed the ape the factory lugnut tool and told him to have a wack at it. He couldn't get them off, how the hell is my 60 year old, 130 lb mom supposed to do it? That $160 tire change cost them around $400. "We'll just loosen them up." Like hell you will, those studs are WAY past their yield, no way my mom was driving on them.

Great story. In my opinion, air tools should not be used on wheel lug nuts.

 

[wafrederick]

Then there are the goofy torque specs,the Ford 3.8 headbolts for the 3.8s in the Ford Windstars are this way.Torque them and loosen them up after torqueing them down,then retorque them.Lot of the 4 and 6 cylinder engine headbolts,I start in the middle going outside.

 

[sdguy55]

Great story. In my opinion, air tools should not be used on wheel lug nuts.

I have a chart on my toolbox that says for x-size fastner for x-amnt of threads and with or without lube torque to such and such value. I follow it for a few things but not everything. Things like flywheel bolts, clutch bolts, head, mains. Its nice to have as a frame of reference.

 

[metaleltr]

I have a chart on my toolbox that says for x-size fastner for x-amnt of threads and with or without lube torque to such and such value. I follow it for a few things but not everything. Things like flywheel bolts, clutch bolts, head, mains. Its nice to have as a frame of reference.

Any chance you have that in a jpeg or pdf you can share?

 

[sdguy55]

http://www.machinetoolhelp.com/Repairing/bolt-torque-chart.html
there it is for ya. It may not be amazingly accurate but it hasnt failed me yet. I compared the specs for CAT bolts (since thats what i primarily work on) and it was within 10 or so lbs (which was in the 10-15 lbs variance that they list in their manuals)

 

[metaleltr]

Thanks

 

[jetmech09]

Here is another good reference for torque, along with a standard torque table. It's a pdf excerpt from 14 CFR 43.13 1b/2b.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...MQwkKopNl-zAGq6ug&sig2=ibo--VILEAtJkgs2s_VaSA

 

[greasemonkey44]

......i just look up and follow manufacturers procedures for torque
they tell you the pattern, the steps, what to lube the threads with, what angle you need added
if more people followed the directions they would save themselves alot of work

 

[CJKaz]

Read up, manufacturer of equipment used by auto, aerospace industry.

http://www.mountztorque.com/learning-center

 

[buening]

I may have been living under a rock, but this is the first I've ever heard of someone dividing the torque spec up, i.e. 3 steps of 25 ft-lbs to get to 75 ft-lbs. If a spec calls for 75 ft-lbs I slowly apply the torque to the particular bolt until I get to 75 ft-lbs. None of my old Ford service manuals mention using multiple torque steps other than the "pattern" of bolts and when to use lube. Does anyone else divide the torque up like that? I would expect it to be undertorqued.

 

[gotwheels]

Do Automotive Techs on this site install and torque fasteners with "clean/dry" threads or with "clean/wet" (lube, antiseize, etc) threads?

If you apply antiseize/lube to the fastener, do you reduce the fastener torque by a 20-30% value?

This assumes one is torquing the fastener to the Manufacturer's suggested value. I, always, feel a need to lube a steel fastener in an aluminum housing to prevent galling. sometimes I am reluctant to reduce the torque value by 20-30%, especially in a critical service. I, typically, have not found manufacturers to address torquing and lubed threads. Thanks.

 

[jetmech09]

Always a different torque wet. Some manuals do call out for stepped torque, I see it all the time. If you have 20 or so bolts all going to 75 ft-lbs, it would be very easy to warp an aluminum part.

 

[jrlp]

Always reduce torque if using anti-seize or any type of thread lubricant. If it's critical, you're over torqueing them by going full torque. I step-up torque on cylinder heads, water pumps, front covers on Cummins, pretty much any large surface area part. I always break it loose, then go to the next step.

So, all 7 to 25ft/lb. Then break loose #1 and torque to 50, break loose the next.. 50.. Once done, next step, break loose -> 75. Doing headstuds on Cummins is a pain, and I do a set at least once a month (usually upgraded ones, arp 425 or 625's, including bottom tapping) and by the time you're 50% done, you wish you were done. The torque is stepped on every fastener...

 

[ncautoshop]

Always reduce torque if using anti-seize or any type of thread lubricant. If it's critical, you're over torqueing them by going full torque. I step-up torque on cylinder heads, water pumps, front covers on Cummins, pretty much any large surface area part. I always break it loose, then go to the next step.

So, all 7 to 25ft/lb. Then break loose #1 and torque to 50, break loose the next.. 50.. Once done, next step, break loose -> 75. Doing headstuds on Cummins is a pain, and I do a set at least once a month (usually upgraded ones, arp 425 or 625's, including bottom tapping) and by the time you're 50% done, you wish you were done. The torque is stepped on every fastener...

Then add in the retorques on a 12v lol. By the time your done frustration isn't even able to describe the mood.

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[sdguy55]

Always reduce torque if using anti-seize or any type of thread lubricant. If it's critical, you're over torqueing them by going full torque. I step-up torque on cylinder heads, water pumps, front covers on Cummins, pretty much any large surface area part. I always break it loose, then go to the next step.

So, all 7 to 25ft/lb. Then break loose #1 and torque to 50, break loose the next.. 50.. Once done, next step, break loose -> 75. Doing headstuds on Cummins is a pain, and I do a set at least once a month (usually upgraded ones, arp 425 or 625's, including bottom tapping) and by the time you're 50% done, you wish you were done. The torque is stepped on every fastener...

Wow thats dumb. Im so glad i dont work on cummins. The only thing thats a PIA so far on CATs is the torque turn on main caps. (effin TIGHT!) although i had to do an injector swap on a 3406E today and that was alot more work than i had anticipated.

 

[jrlp]

Then add in the retorques on a 12v lol. By the time your done frustration isn't even able to describe the mood.

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Exactly! I did my 12v about 3 years ago.. sigh. I'm just waiting for a lull in work to throw some 625's on my 6.7.. not looking forward to it... at all..

 

[ncautoshop]

We do atleast one set of studs in a 12v a month, by the time ringed customers come back we can usually get a half turn from your initial mark. Ill say if you don't retorque a ringed head it will blow.

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