How does this power socket work?

[atikovi]

http://www.ingersollrandproducts.co...2-drive-individual-impact-sockets/powersocket

Says the patent-pending design creates increased reverse torque up to 50% on ½” impact wrenches. It just has a ring around the socket. How does that increase torque. Looks like they have just one size too.

 

[Kaane]

Mass. Heavier the socket the more power it will transfer per impact.

 

[General Geoff]

The ring is essentially acting as a flywheel to store energy from the impact wrench turning the socket, and expends it when the socket encounters resistance against the fastener. They advertise increased reversed torque by up to 50%, I guarantee it increases forward torque by a LOT more than that.

 

[atikovi]

Mass. Heavier the socket the more power it will transfer per impact.

But then won't it require more power from the impact wrench, or just absorb it?

The ring is essentially acting as a flywheel to store energy from the impact wrench turning the socket, and expends it when the socket encounters resistance against the fastener.

You mean the ring rotates or is it all one piece?

 

[ishiboo]

Mass. Heavier the socket the more power it will transfer per impact.

This.

But, why is the majority of the mass close to the socket? Shouldn't the slots be closest?

 

[4xdog]

It's like swinging a bigger hammer. More mass, separated farther from the centerline, means more momentum to transfer on "impact". Yes, it will take more from the gun to accelerate, just like the bigger hammer.

Good practical use of physics, IMO.

 

[rlitman]

It's like swinging a bigger hammer. More mass, separated farther from the centerline, means more momentum to transfer on "impact". Yes, it will take more from the gun to accelerate, just like the bigger hammer.

Good practical use of physics, IMO.

This doesn't make any sense. The hammer is inside the impact wrench. You're not making it any larger. By increasing the mass of the socket, you're increasing the mass of the "nail".

If this is just a heavier socket with larger rotational inertia, it is sure to reduce the peak impact delivered to the nut.

edit:
Thinking about this more, while it might reduce the "nut-busting" torque, I think it would act like a harmonic balancer, and could increase the average torque. If the gauge is measuring that, perhaps that is why they can make these claims.
Anyway, it is "patent pending", so I'm not sure where I could look up how they say it works yet.

 

[Dust Devil]

lame

 

[Squashfest81]

Possibly like a deadblow? Little weights get tossed inside the ring?

 

[atikovi]

more momentum to transfer on "impact".

When the socket is impacting on a tight nut, the socket might not even be rotating at the start, or very slightly, a few hundredths of an inch at a time. Not much momentum to transfer.

 

[RV77]

lame

Yep seems like a gimmick....you wont need this if you have a IR impact to begin with.

 

[4xdog]

When the socket is impacting on a tight nut, the socket might not even be rotating at the start, or very slightly, a few hundredths of an inch at a time. Not much momentum to transfer.

That's indeed true. Good point.

The Ingersoll Rand website clearly states it provides more "reverse torque". Is that simply a clever way of saying it does a "better" job of spinning off an already-loosened nut?

 

[1foxracing]

Someone at IR has been watching youtube....

 

[GTA Matt]

It works. Its not a gimmick. My Cornwell dealer had some prototypes of the socket over a year ago he was letting us try.

 

[zkling]

Increased inertia (I=(mr^2)/2) and transmissibility.

 

[Jason280]

Why not just make it with a 1/2" male adapter to use with any socket?

 

[zkling]

Why not just make it with a 1/2" male adapter to use with any socket?

Every little gap takes up useable "power" (part of the transmissibility aspect). Now how much in a practical sense, well...

Try stacking a few short extensions vs just using a socket direct on an impact.

 

[franzdom]

I can't see this working. For clarity, think if it was really large and heavy, wouldn't that obviously hit weaker?

 

[Anarius]

This socket was designed specifically for removing Honda crank bolts. It works. IR is supposed to be making more sizes available late this year.

 

[1cargarage]

Increased inertia (I=(mr^2)/2) and transmissibility.

Sort of. That's the formula for the moment of inertia of the ring around the socket. From a pure physics standpoint though, and as others have stated, if the force from the impact gun remains constant (which it will/should), and the fastener is stuck, then by increasing the moment of inertia of the socket, the angular acceleration of the system (fastener + socket) just becomes smaller because some of the energy transferred from the impact is used to accelerate the bigger socket instead of break the fastener loose.

This thing only makes sense to generate more angular momentum if the fastener is already loose. For a stuck fastener, I don't see how this thing would increase an impact's ability at all.

 

[Aerogt01]

It looks like the ring is near the driven end.

The thing about impact sockets is they have to act as a torsional spring to transfer all that energy without shattering. That's why you shouldn't use standard sockets on an impact - they weren't designed to give a little and spring back.

With the increased mass on the driven end there is more rotational energy going into the spring, and more resistance to spring-back on a stuck bolt. Makes sense to me, although I may never have come with it myself.

 

[Anarius]

I'm not a physicist, so I'm not 100% sure on how this thing works, it feels like it is one solid piece. It does seem more 'twisty' when in use, but that may be because I am not used to seeing something that odd on the end of my impact. Perhaps the twisting 'snap' swings the extra weight around and functionally increases the mass of the hammers?

Ever try to get a Honda crank bolt loose? You have to put a breaker bar on a holding tool, stick the bar between or against the control arm, then get a 19mm socket on an extension and a really BIG breaker bar, then crank on it like nobodies business.

One of our tire guys drives a Honda accord that we tried this socket on (thanks, Mac guy) as well as the old way. Couldn't get it loose solo with a breaker bar, this thing ripped it off like it was a Honey Badger and gave no shits. No holding tool needed.

 

[zkling]

Sort of. That's the formula for the moment of inertia of the ring around the socket. From a pure physics standpoint though, and as others have stated, if the force from the impact gun remains constant (which it will/should), and the fastener is stuck, then by increasing the moment of inertia of the socket, the angular acceleration of the system (fastener + socket) just becomes smaller because some of the energy transferred from the impact is used to accelerate the bigger socket instead of break the fastener loose.

This thing only makes sense to generate more angular momentum if the fastener is already loose. For a stuck fastener, I don't see how this thing would increase an impact's ability at all.

That is the base line equation for a solid cylinder about it's longitudinal axis. How you want to superimpose it by adding or subtracting is up to you, but it comes back to the same.

You are missing an understanding of the second part of my post, transmissibility. Which is a topic of vibrations. It explains why torque sticks work, why long extensions are less effective and why these "power" sockets work. Simply applying a T in = T out as we would in say a torque wrench under static conditions does not apply here.

I'm not a physicist, so I'm not 100% sure on how this thing works, it feels like it is one solid piece. It does seem more 'twisty' when in use, but that may be because I am not used to seeing something that odd on the end of my impact. Perhaps the twisting 'snap' swings the extra weight around and functionally increases the mass of the hammers?

Exactly.

 

[woodstockva]

This socket was designed specifically for removing Honda crank bolts. It works. IR is supposed to be making more sizes available late this year.

100% correct......I have one here.

The limitations will be clearance issues....not all Honda crank bolts have enough clearance around them for this to work. Also, some Honda crank bolts are 17mm.

MOST impacts will not remove Honda crank bolts on their own, so this would be a great thing to have on hand if you ever do timing belt jobs, water pumps, crank oil seals, etc on Hondas.

I will be making a video about one at some point soon when I can set up a test to prove the increased torque output.

 

[uart]

This doesn't make any sense. The hammer is inside the impact wrench. You're not making it any larger. By increasing the mass of the socket, you're increasing the mass of the "nail".

If this is just a heavier socket with larger rotational inertia, it is sure to reduce the peak impact delivered to the nut.

I agree with this. And this would be exactly the situation if it was an entirely rigid system.

However since IR is fairly reputable then I assume that it does actually work. And the only way that I can see this happening is by resonance.

What I'm assuming is that with each impact the "inertia ring" builds up increasing vibrations due to the elastic nature of the socket - so basically a resonance effect.

The cut away slots and "spoke" width are probably tuned to make the ring resonate at somewhere near the typical impact rate of the gun.

 

[dgunn]

I'm a Honda line tech in a busy Honda dealership.
I can assure you that this works as advertised. I have one that I bought about a year ago when they first came out.

An IR titanium impact will not break loose a crank bolt on a Honda.
Most guys were buying 3/4 inch impacts just for that reason.

With this I can easily remove any crankshaft bolt with my 1/2 impact.
I loaned it to the used car tech to remove a bolt with a Harbor Freight impact and it spun it right out.

It's so simple that it's pathetic no one thought of it sooner. The outside weight increases the torque on the inside of the socket.

According to the Cornwell salesman they are due to release these in other sizes as well. BTW, 17mm crank bolts haven't been used since late 90's civics.

They work well on compliance bushing bolts as well if you've ever struggled to remove one of those.

 

[raiderhillbilly]

Someone at IR has been watching youtube....

I am impressed.

 

[twertsy]

Such a simple concept and one of those "why didn't I think of that" moments......

 

[Exceller8]

lame

Most helpful post of the day!

 

[organ]

I am impressed.

Lisle offers a socket like that... http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00RGNCV1U/?tag=atomicindus08-20

I own one, I haven't used the Ingersoll product but I feel the Lisle socket and the socket featured in the video are a less awkward attempt at accomplishing the same thing...

 

[anndel]

This would be nice for a crankshaft pulley bolt or something that's torqued down 200 ft-lbs.

 

[atikovi]

More sizes available from IR

http://files.ctctcdn.com/46a2cdf6001/b74a8c60-60e0-4108-98fd-120fd4f266c3.pdf

A little pricey though.

 

[joe_padavano]

The fundamental physics is that the inertia ring on the socket makes up for the loss of torque that happens from both the twisting of the anvil (and any extension you may be using) and slop in the square drive connections. This is exactly the opposite of a torque stick for lug nuts. With a torque stick, you rely on the twisting of the torque stick to limit torque. Here, the inertia ring is accelerated rotationally and when the gun anvil starts to twist, the inertia ring keeps applying force to the nut.

 

[atikovi]

Thank you Sheldon.

 

[HCNDM]

It's like swinging a bigger hammer. More mass, separated farther from the centerline, means more momentum to transfer on "impact". Yes, it will take more from the gun to accelerate, just like the bigger hammer.

Good practical use of physics, IMO.

exactly. centripetal force iirc.

Or simply said: imagine a weight at the end of a string being swung in circles.

If you stopped swinging the qeight wouldcause the motion to continue for a bit, no weight on the string and the string stops swinging a lot quicker.

 

[signcrafter]

I bought the lisle version and used it on on a acura MDX crank bolt this past week and it spun it right off with my cordless impact. I was very impressed and well worth the 25 or so bucks I paid for it.

 

[DSLTRK]

If IR was smart, they'd broach an exterior spline on all the drive sides of the sockets, and make only one ring, so you'd have both a regular set then add the ring when you needed it.



Having a ring on every socket is a waste of space.

 

[Finky198]

its like the Honda Crank Sockets Lol. Probably not a bad idea at it seem more low profile then the other type of weighted socket....

 

[77Mini]

Socket with a flywheel attached. Just what I need a socket that doesn't fit in anywhere.

 

[joe_padavano]

If IR was smart, they'd broach an exterior spline on all the drive sides of the sockets, and make only one ring, so you'd have both a regular set then add the ring when you needed it.



Having a ring on every socket is a waste of space.

The added slop of the inertia ring on the splines will negate the effect of having the ring in the first place. The ring needs to be an integral part of the socket for this concept to work properly.