How good tool companies go under.

[HandyManny]

The point of this thread is spot on, and is also a small look into whats wrong with our economy. Even though many people wish they could have USA made products or would prefer them to Chinese ones, the first big player to switch to China production and sell at a big box store typically tends to be rewarded, while those that try to maintain their made in the USA status get clobbered. Thats why most everything in any of the stores mentioned are made in China.

So really its either a race to see who can do it the cheapest, or be happy to reduce your target market and sell high quality niche, USA made products. This is more my general opinion about all products, more than just tools. We've actually had more hold-outs in going foreign on tools than most other product types have.

As for Channellock, I personally think they are getting a little cheap anyway, made in the USA or not. They are very inexpensive I guess, so it makes sense...

I agree with you on most of this. All except the last part about Channellock. Have heard others also say the quality has gotten cheap lately. I don't see it. I've been using their pliers since before the company changed it's name to Chanellock. Owned and used many of their pliers spanning from the late 1940's up until today. Channellock are mostly what I still own and use today when it comes to pliers with my newest ones bought within the last years or so. I simply have not noticed and difference in quality over the years. Only variations I've seen is with some minor variations in machining over the decades and some changes to the finish. In fact one thing I have noticed today is an improvement in the matting, it seem tighter with less wiggle and less slop today than the older tools had. I do however agree that they could put a lot more effort in to machining smooth the ridges and burr lines left behind on the tools cross section by the trimming die on their GripLock series of pliers. In fact across the board I'm seeing many Asian made tools come to market with much better uniform finishes on the tools compared to current USA produced hand tools. We need to clean that stuff up.

 

[plinker]

I've been using their pliers since before the company changed it's name to Chanellock.

What name were they before?

As far as the finish goes, I'm probably a little different, but I kinda like slight imperfections as long as they are only are just that.
Makes them look real to me, so I know they're quality and not polished (insert COO here) junk. If that makes any sense....

 

[NY Old Guy]

I just bought a heavy duty LISLE brand snap ring pliers set.

Made in USA.

I always buy Made in USA, partly because it's high quality, and partly because I feel it's the right thing to do to support jobs making things in the USA.

I hope Lisle doesn't run into problems with competitors selling imported goods of dodgy quality to customers who don't know any better.

I went away for the weekend a couple of weeks ago, and came home to find my wife had decided to hang up some pictures. She decided to buy a hammer, even though I already have several (Proto made in USA). Of course she went to the local hardware store and paid $12 for a Chinese made piece of junk. Of course I had to lecture her: "BUY MADE IN USA". My wife at the time just didn't know any better, she is now a better educated consumer of tools. Tell all your friends: "If you care about your country, and you want the best quality tools, buy MADE IN USA". OK, sorry for the rant. now I feel better.

 

[plumber84]

I agree with you HandyManny many Taiwanese made products are of even or better quality than either American or European products, i dont have problem buying Taiwanese tools but they come second to American and European tools where possible but thats just me.With regards to Chinese tools i avoid them fervently for political and quality reasons having said that Irwin have started producing their "Irwin Record" wood planes in India and the quality control is even worse than that in China so my next plane will be either a Clico of Sheffield quality or Lie nielson of USA origin both retail for about £200-£300 rather than a £30 Irwin.

 

[GrantCee]

Today things are tough for the USA manufactures, I just got off the phone with a tool company (for USA Drill bits), the salesman was having a hard time finding USA made drill bits.

Huh? They don't do business with Precision, Triumph, Morse, or Norseman?

Call a metalworking supplier; you'll find all the American made twist drills you need.

 

[MD11]

So you say the wages should be on the chinese level ?

Or maybe it´s the comsumer who is greedy and guilty of excessive shopping, who wants 5 ratchets instead of one american made or 2 TV´s instead of one and ....everything....

very well stated Monte, I couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[honcho]

Most of the participants in this forum are individual consumers of tools and our interests are around mostly mechanics hand tools with a smattering of power tools and industrial machine tools. That makes us a bit narrow in the wide-world of tools when we consider the merits of USA-stamped Snap On ratchets and chinese made Craftsman raised panel wrenches in the state of the global tool market.

As many posters have written in Garage Journal and elsewhere, vast chunks of the retail tool market could care less where their tools come from as long as they get it something that works at a price they can afford. Likewise, tool manufacturers want to produce products that meet the needs of the marketplace and MAKE money for them. National and local loyalties for business are all but extinct. Consumers may say they want to buy USA made products, but very few will pony up any additional money to purchase a USA made good. A USA made product has to be the same price or less expensive than an imported alternative or have such characteristics (strength, functionality, etc...) that the import alternative does not possess.

The big box stores like Home Depot and Wal-Mart accelerate the process by demanding lower prices from their vendors so they can offer more products at lower prices to their customers and still make money. For some companies, places like Home Depot and Wal-Mart are such huge outlets for their products that they risk going out of business if they don't sell to them so they look for ways to make the products cheaper and cheaper so they can still make a profit. There's a good article on how Snapper decided NOT to continuing selling in Wal-Mart at great risk to it's overall business. Snapper seems to have have succeeded but not every company can do the same.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/102/open_snapper.html


Toolmakers of every kind are right in the middle of the battles being fought in the global economy--over resources like energy and raw materials, environmental rules for things like plating operations and air quality, labor costs and workplace regulations just to name a few things that they juggle when making decisions about where to manufacture products with the hope of profit.

We all want inexpensive, good quality products but if we want good paying jobs, somebody, somewhere has to pay. You can have it good, fast or cheap--pick any two and only two. You can't expect to have a good paying job unless there are customers for your employer(s) who pay enough to allow them to employ you.

 

[MD11]

Walmart is Satan's spawn.

 

[MD11]

oh, and on that topic... a great article.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/01...d10|htmlws-main-bb|dl13|sec1_lnk3&pLid=125582

 

[matthew]

While competing to be cheaper can be a good short-term strategy, I think what Irwin did with Vise-Grip is an example of why Channellock needs to stay the course...

...when Peterson was the maker of Vise-Grips, they were the undisputed market leader. It wasn't that they were high-end, but it was a good, reliable product at a good price point. As a result, people sought them out. Most people would pay a bit more for Vise-Grip brand, and knew they got a decent product out of it. When Irwin moved production overseas, it cut costs in the short term, but people have started to notice that it's not worth much of a premium to buy Vise-Grip anymore. The result is a cycle of reducing margins and cheapening the product that causes a dwindling in the brand equity. Had they chosen to have an inflationary price increase, they could have kept themselves in that market dominance where people were willing to pay a bit more thus making it difficult to undercut them on price (the key word being inflationary, not extorionate, price increases).

Channellock is another iconic name in pliers, and people definitely do know they are worth a bit more than most garden grade pliers. That's really the reason why everyone, from the big box stores to the small hardware dealers to the specialty tool suppliers all sell Channellock. Being universally distributed is a big part of their strength, but the cross section of quality and price is the reason that it works.

I'd argue that with everyone else's locking pliers haveing gone overseas, now would be a good time for Channellock to try and move in on that market. Either by returning with rebranded Grip-Ons, or making their own in Meadville. Consumers are starting to look for alternatives. The key would be convincing their distributors to carry them. It would take some marketing work, but is doable.

 

[Coach James]

Corporations actually do lose money. It's not al BS etc. Does anyone really think a federal government with an insatiable appetite for money would let companies making millions or billions in profit pay zero federal taxes?

Unless someone has actually done the accounting or book keeping for a corporation, it is easy to claim they are all a bunch of liars and crooks. Some people think it is as simple as This year's income-this year's expense=this year's profit/(loss). It isn't and farm accounting can be some of the most complicated. In my business, I have items being depreciated over anywhere from 1 to 30 years.

Loopholes=the law. It is amazing when the same politicians that write the tax code villify companies for following it.

Also for everyone on this forum if you use the:

1. mortgage interest deduction

2. personal exemption

3. claim any dependents

4. use the child tax credit

5. deduct state and local or property taxes from your taxable income

6. claim cheritable deductions

you are using a tax loophole to minimize your taxes. Does anyone here feel dishonest for following the law that allows you to use these "loopholes"?

Coach

 

[pipsters]

No one said not paying taxes isn't a bad thing, we are just disputing companies going overseas for tax reasons. If you don't pay corporate income tax here, no reason to go to China to avoid corporate income taxes. China also has significant taxes on personal income as well, just like the US.

 

[kythri]

What name were they before?

Champion–DeArment Tool Company changed it's name to Channellock, Inc. in 1963.

I've seen a few people here try to say that they were part of Cooper, which is nonsense. They're their own company, never been part of another.

 

[e-tek]

Irwin is the epitome of what's gone WRONG with America. God-damned greedy corporate execs have what was once high quality, invented in the US, stuff made off-shore. They put a ton of Amercian's out of work, send American cash overseas, prop up and pay off communist cronies, see their EPS increase, reap huge dividends and stock bonuses and laugh hard while the economy tanks because now even more "poorer" Americans are buying their cheap knock-offs.

Or so I've heard....

 

[plumber84]

Like i said i hope they choke on their profits.

 

[mikew13]

A name on garbage cans doesn't belong in the tool business, PERIOD!

 

[e-tek]

oh, and on that topic... a great article.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/01...d10|htmlws-main-bb|dl13|sec1_lnk3&pLid=125582

That IS a great article - I'd bet on hope.

 

[HandyManny]

I've been using their pliers since before the company changed it's name to Chanellock.

What name were they before?

..

It was named Champion D'Arment

Channellock used to be only a trade name applied to their tongue & groove pliers only. Much how Petersen used and Irwin uses the name Vise-Grip on their products.

 

[HandyManny]

I just bought a heavy duty LISLE brand snap ring pliers set.

Made in USA.

I always buy Made in USA, partly because it's high quality, and partly because I feel it's the right thing to do to support jobs making things in the USA.

I hope Lisle doesn't run into problems with competitors selling imported goods of dodgy quality to customers who don't know any better.

I went away for the weekend a couple of weeks ago, and came home to find my wife had decided to hang up some pictures. She decided to buy a hammer, even though I already have several (Proto made in USA). Of course she went to the local hardware store and paid $12 for a Chinese made piece of junk. Of course I had to lecture her: "BUY MADE IN USA". My wife at the time just didn't know any better, she is now a better educated consumer of tools. Tell all your friends: "If you care about your country, and you want the best quality tools, buy MADE IN USA". OK, sorry for the rant. now I feel better.

I've found that these days USA stands for high price, not so much high quality anymore. As to regards of Lisle - several of their tools are Taiwan made these days and truthfully I think they could make nicer more rubust tools. I think their durability and structure leaves a lot to be desired, too much stamped and cold rolled steel used in their products as opposed to forging, so much for being made in USA eh! What I like about Lisle is they exist mainly as a specialty tool maker.

 

[HandyManny]

Walmart is Satan's spawn.

Spend enough time in a Walmart and you'll find that Walmart actually carries more USA made products than other big-box stores do, heck even more than other smaller retailers do. I'm not saying they carry a lot of USA stuff, but considering all they sell, they do have more USA made stuff than most others.

 

[HandyManny]

While competing to be cheaper can be a good short-term strategy, I think what Irwin did with Vise-Grip is an example of why Channellock needs to stay the course...

...when Peterson was the maker of Vise-Grips, they were the undisputed market leader. It wasn't that they were high-end, but it was a good, reliable product at a good price point. As a result, people sought them out. Most people would pay a bit more for Vise-Grip brand, and knew they got a decent product out of it. When Irwin moved production overseas, it cut costs in the short term, but people have started to notice that it's not worth much of a premium to buy Vise-Grip anymore. The result is a cycle of reducing margins and cheapening the product that causes a dwindling in the brand equity. Had they chosen to have an inflationary price increase, they could have kept themselves in that market dominance where people were willing to pay a bit more thus making it difficult to undercut them on price (the key word being inflationary, not extorionate, price increases).

Channellock is another iconic name in pliers, and people definitely do know they are worth a bit more than most garden grade pliers. That's really the reason why everyone, from the big box stores to the small hardware dealers to the specialty tool suppliers all sell Channellock. Being universally distributed is a big part of their strength, but the cross section of quality and price is the reason that it works.

I'd argue that with everyone else's locking pliers haveing gone overseas, now would be a good time for Channellock to try and move in on that market. Either by returning with rebranded Grip-Ons, or making their own in Meadville. Consumers are starting to look for alternatives. The key would be convincing their distributors to carry them. It would take some marketing work, but is doable.

The ONLY reason Peterson was so successful with Vise-Grip is that for much of the time that Peterson existed they owned the patent for locking pliers of that design. That IS the ONLY reason. You are correct it's not that they nessesarily made a high-end product, they simply were the only ones producing that tool. Once the patent expired, the design was copied world wide.

 

[HandyManny]

Champion–DeArment Tool Company changed it's name to Channellock, Inc. in 1963.

I've seen a few people here try to say that they were part of Cooper, which is nonsense. They're their own company, never been part of another.

Been family owned from the very beginning.

 

[Tarheelgarage]

Another spawn of satan conglomerate that ruined some smaller companies is ITW....(Indonesia Thug Works).
They bought out some old line manufacturing companies and shut them down and went to China.

 

[HandyManny]

Irwin is the epitome of what's gone WRONG with America. God-damned greedy corporate execs have what was once high quality, invented in the US, stuff made off-shore. They put a ton of Amercian's out of work, send American cash overseas, prop up and pay off communist cronies, see their EPS increase, reap huge dividends and stock bonuses and laugh hard while the economy tanks because now even more "poorer" Americans are buying their cheap knock-offs.

Or so I've heard....

Most of your rant may be true, no disagreement here. Except we Americans are far from poor, I can assure you that my friend. Very very few Americans these days know what poor really is. And the fact is that this country's industrial machine (or what's left of it) is still being kept in motion by the use of Irwin tools. I see them used by tradesman of all types in virtually every industry out there these days. I'm sure if the quality was that bad, nobody in the trades would trust their job to Irwin tools.

 

[kythri]

Spend enough time in a Walmart and you'll find that Walmart actually carries more USA made products than other big-box stores do, heck even more than other smaller retailers do. I'm not saying they carry a lot of USA stuff, but considering all they sell, they do have more USA made stuff than most others.

BEGONE, FACTS! YOU HAVE NO PLACE IN AN ANTI-WALMART SCREED!

 

[kythri]

Most of your rant may be true, no disagreement here. Except we Americans are far from poor, I can assure you that my friend. Very very few Americans these days know what poor really is. And the fact is that this country's industrial machine (or what's left of it) is still being kept in motion by the use of Irwin tools. I see them used by tradesman of all types in virtually every industry out there these days. I'm sure if the quality was that bad, nobody in the trades would trust their job to Irwin tools.

That ain't no lie. It's always amusing when the local news, as they did a couple nights ago, runs an economy/unemployment piece, and they show the local employment office with people at the computers, looking for jobs, applying for benefits, being a mouthpiece for the camera and complaining about how hard they have it - and then the camera cuts to another shot where those same people are playing with their iPhone 4 or other smartphone (the most obnoxious mouthpiece was actually using a 4S, because I saw her playing with the Siri feature - yes, I'm a geek, it's my job).

You aren't poor when you can afford a brand new cell phone with data plan, I don't care what the argument is.

 

[MD11]

Like i said i hope they choke on their profits.

Amen brother!

 

[MD11]

Spend enough time in a Walmart and you'll find that Walmart actually carries more USA made products than other big-box stores do, heck even more than other smaller retailers do. I'm not saying they carry a lot of USA stuff, but considering all they sell, they do have more USA made stuff than most others.

really? when you say "most others" you mean, Target (Walmart clone), Best Buy (electronic Walmart), or maybe TJ Max (Walmart for the bargain finder)?

It's all WALMARTIZATION ... it's all trash from China, feeding the Chicom economy at the expose of the US economy.

I dont' particularly like the quality from China, but even if it was on par with US or EU production, and it's far from it, I'd not want to buy it because it's from a Godless Communist totalitarian country that has no freedom and civil liberty.

I have a moral code and sometimes it's expensive to live by it, but nobody said it's my God given right to own everything I desire.

 

[matthew]

The ONLY reason Peterson was so successful with Vise-Grip is that for much of the time that Peterson existed they owned the patent for locking pliers of that design. That IS the ONLY reason. You are correct it's not that they nessesarily made a high-end product, they simply were the only ones producing that tool. Once the patent expired, the design was copied world wide.

The original patent was filed in 1940, and would have expired by the '60's. There was other factors in the continued success of Peterson after that point - their name being synonomous with the product, they continued developing the product, and they did a good job in getting near-universal distribution under their own name (and private labelling for others). But I'm still of the view that having a cross-section of quality and price was an important factor in their success, and a change in the balance of those factors - whether real or perceived - has occurred.

 

[HandyManny]

really? when you say "most others" you mean, Target (Walmart clone), Best Buy (electronic Walmart), or maybe TJ Max (Walmart for the bargain finder)?

It's all WALMARTIZATION ... it's all trash from China, feeding the Chicom economy at the expose of the US economy.

I dont' particularly like the quality from China, but even if it was on par with US or EU production, and it's far from it, I'd not want to buy it because it's from a Godless Communist totalitarian country that has no freedom and civil liberty.

I have a moral code and sometimes it's expensive to live by it, but nobody said it's my God given right to own everything I desire.

These days I don't see the quality of Chinese made products being and worse than USA or European stuff. In fact I see a lot of domestic **** these days and it's over priced too. I've has some issuse with the quality of a few modern USA and European made things in recent years too. I understand your moral code and I admire your view on the matter. I'd myself always try to support USA instead of China when I can and when the quality is there. Problem is that a lot of stuff that's still made here really isn't all that great anymore. Simply saying USA on a product has never meant that the product was always quality. At one time we were capable of and we did produce high-end goods, but we also used to make a lot of economy and bargain basement stuff too. You may be too young to know that.

 

[HandyManny]

The original patent was filed in 1940, and would have expired by the '60's. There was other factors in the continued success of Peterson after that point - their name being synonomous with the product, they continued developing the product, and they did a good job in getting near-universal distribution under their own name (and private labelling for others). But I'm still of the view that having a cross-section of quality and price was an important factor in their success, and a change in the balance of those factors - whether real or perceived - has occurred.

Yes, all true. Thing about vise-grips is that even the original USA made tools were never (in my view) anything all that high-end. In fact they were always a crude tool to me, but what made them great was their usefulness for many tasks. I htink it **** big time that Irwin closed the factory in Nebraska, but truth be told I see no difference in quality between the older USA made versions and the newer Taiwan and China made versions. But I'd still like to see Irwin providing jobs to American manufacurers. Problem is that not too many Americans want these jobs anymore, it's benieth them, hence the imported and illegal labor.

 

[IngyHere]

You're right. They close down factories, move machines, personnel, infastructure, ect. halfway around the world, just to piss you off.

No. They move machines because they make money off the back of Chinese Communist subsidies. And, because the power broker$ are paid off, they get to have extremely favorable exchange rates for things like labor and capital improvements. However, that probably matters less than the Chinese government subsidies that establish new manufacturing concerns almost free, employ virtual slave labor and allow raw materials to be sent overseas and in many cases have finished product come back for less cost.

 

[matthew]

These days I don't see the quality of Chinese made products being and worse than USA or European stuff. In fact I see a lot of domestic **** these days and it's over priced too. I've has some issuse with the quality of a few modern USA and European made things in recent years too. I understand your moral code and I admire your view on the matter. I'd myself always try to support USA instead of China when I can and when the quality is there. Problem is that a lot of stuff that's still made here really isn't all that great anymore. Simply saying USA on a product has never meant that the product was always quality. At one time we were capable of and we did produce high-end goods, but we also used to make a lot of economy and bargain basement stuff too. You may be too young to know that.

No doubt - they are the wrong tool for every job. But the fact they are a tool for every job - wrong or not - is their utility.

Regardless of whether or not the quality has changed, their perception in the market has. Maybe it's due to the ill-will from shutting down the DeWitt plant. Maybe it's that the imitators have gotten better. Maybe it's that they're not as useful anymore now that everything is electronic and disposable. I still can't help but feel that it still represents and example of a product that has lost its differentiation as being 'better' and 'worth a couple of extra bucks,' but within reach of the average consumer, which is necessary for long-term survival in a mass market since there's always somebody new trying to undercut prices.

 

[MD11]

These days I don't see the quality of Chinese made products being and worse than USA or European stuff. In fact I see a lot of domestic **** these days and it's over priced too. I've has some issuse with the quality of a few modern USA and European made things in recent years too. I understand your moral code and I admire your view on the matter. I'd myself always try to support USA instead of China when I can and when the quality is there. Problem is that a lot of stuff that's still made here really isn't all that great anymore. Simply saying USA on a product has never meant that the product was always quality. At one time we were capable of and we did produce high-end goods, but we also used to make a lot of economy and bargain basement stuff too. You may be too young to know that.

I'm in my mid 40's and remember quite well when buying my Redline MX3 dirt bike in 1983 for $300, it was all US and Japan made. Fast forward 25 years I got my son a Redline for $300 (a lot less when you factor in inflation) and it was a fraction as good a bike as mine. 100% made in China.

So now with everything. It's cheaper and now as well made.