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How many BTU's do I really need?

240sxguy

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I have seen a lot of calculators online for heater BTU size. I am lost. I have seen about five different numbers now. Here is what I am working with;

Roughly 750 sq/ft with about 8' ceilings.

No wall insulation, no ceiling insulation (yet).

I want to size the heater for this scenario; I will be insulating the walls 2x4 framing and blowing R49 into the attic. I have a natural gas line in the garage. No windows, and insulated door.

I do want to use a forced air unit, and budget does matter. I don't want the humidity from the ventless units.

Thoughts? real world experiences??

Thanks guys!

Evan

I do want to keep the garage above freezing all year round'
 
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oldgoat

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Is the garage floor insulated? Actually I would go higher than what the calculations say. The floor will act as a heat sink and when you bring in a vehicle it will also.
 
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240sxguy

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Is the garage floor insulated? Actually I would go higher than what the calculations say. The floor will act as a heat sink and when you bring in a vehicle it will also.

Alright, Ill go ahead and use the calculator and add 10% or so?

I don't know if the slab is insulated actually, I don't even know how old the garage is. I know it was added onto the house after it was built though.

During the worst weather, I would need a 50 or so degree rise.

Evan
 

Steve in Mi

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I would guess that 65,000 will be plenty. Your common wall with the house generally will decrease the needed temperature rise. The temperature in the unheated garage vs. outside temperature can give you a measure of how much. Also of consideration in the temperature rise is the upper temperature you heat to. If it will serve as a guy hangout in the coldest of times 70 degrees may be the target but if it is strickly a working garage - 70 is a bit warm, your call.
 
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240sxguy

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I will rarely, if ever want it past 55 degrees out there. I get used to the temperatures outside being cold and sweat like a madman when I work in hot environments. My goal is to make the garage workable with a typical 35 degree or so temp bump up. The tough part comes when its -20 outside and I am shooting for 35 degrees or so. It seems the garage generally maintains a fairly warm temp. The -20 weather is short lived, about 5 days a year I would say. The rest is single digits and teens. I can just stay inside. I am trying to avoid freezing, I would LOVE to have a sink in my garage but we will see if that's feasible due to temperatures. Worst case, I can shut it off in the house during bitter weather.

Thanks everyone, I do really appreciate it. Looks like the heater will be out of reach price wise for awhile. Ill just keep saving.

Evan
 

400excracer

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Checkout Craigslist for a heater. I see them on there once in a while. I got lucky and bought a new one from a friend of mine for $225. It cost me about another $100 in materials to install it myself and I saved quite a bit. My garage is 1250 sq ft and I have a 45000 btu heater and it does fine. My walls are insulated but my attic isnt (yet) and does petty well. I may upgrade to a 60000 btu unit down the road, but this one does the job for now.
 
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240sxguy

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I know the calculator is very general. I added about 10 percent so I think it wanted 55k btu but realistically I think the reason it wants such a high number is because I want to be able to keep the garage above freezing when its cold out ie. 50 degree temp change.

Evan
 

walrus

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I know the calculator is very general. I added about 10 percent so I think it wanted 55k btu but realistically I think the reason it wants such a high number is because I want to be able to keep the garage above freezing when its cold out ie. 50 degree temp change.

Evan

A furnace should be sized to barely handle the load not oversized to blow you out of the building. It sounds like your going to put alot of insulation in there and no windows.
Here's another calculator

http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Calculators/HeatLoss/HeatLoss.htm

Not sure if it makes any difference in the results though?
 
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240sxguy

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Seems from that calculator that closer to 40k btu should be adequate. Ill measure out the garage properly and re-use that calculator. Seems pretty good compared to the other options, which are more general.

Evan
 
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240sxguy

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My family chipped in for a modine hot dawg for my birthday that is upcoming. I am freakin' stoked. Out to the garage tonight to figure out my btu requirement. Farm and fleet has two on sale a 45k btu and 75.

Thanks guys.
 

rickairmedic

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240 go for the 45 it will be more than adaquate my garage is only 450 Sq. feet and is attatched to the house with uninsulated walls 2 BIG OLE wood framed leaky windows anad a standard steel uninsulated door . I was in the mid 40's in here during the recent ice storms with no heat in here at all with a small convection radiant heater it stays in the mid to high 50's in here when its in the 20-30* range outside it will drop down to the low 50's in here if its closer to 0* outside. I also have a mandoor with half of it window thats opened and closed constantly . I have 6 kids between 13 and 23 living in my house that are constantly in and out. The 75 will be to big and short cycle and never really heat the place right . I also own an HVAC company :D.

Rick
 
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240sxguy

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Thanks for your input Rick. No matter which way I slice it, it seems the 75k btu unit will be too large. My garage is bigger than yours but my plans include major insulation. I don't have any windows etc.. either.

Thanks!

Evan
 
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240sxguy

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Well, I got it home and figured out actual output was only 36k btu. Hmm. I had better do that modine calculator to make sure it will be adequate after insulation is done.

*****, took over an hour to go get it. I suspect the 75k btu unit is more like 60.

Evan
 
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duderjay

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hey watch out for those calculators. different ones says different outputs

i have 528 sp ft with nine foot ciellings insulation vapour barrier etc etc dry wall as well and am in the process of mudding,

also i had to derate the btu output on any nat gas heater due to the altitude 4400 feet above sea level.

anyways I went with a 60 k btu unit from renzor I know I could have used a 45 k unit but a heating expert I know told me to go with a little over kill due to it can get to minus 45 c in calgary alberta.

and I have no regrets with going with a bigger unit and am very pleased I did

Talk to a couple of heating experts
 

rickairmedic

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Dude the masters license I am required to carry by the state makes me an expert and the 75 Evan has the option of would be way overkill and would short cycle thus running more and using more fuel and never really heating the space properly .The 45 will do the job just fine if he does the insulation he is planning. The general ule in HVAC is a little undersized is always better than any amount of oversized. I wont say I know all there is to know about the industry but this is one of the most important things you learn in the industry an over sized unit will not work as efficiently as a slightly undersized unit.


Rick
 
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redsky49

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A couple of clarifications:

First, all gas appliances are rated for input btuh (the volume of gas at sea level, in cfh, assuming roughly 1000 btu per cubic foot of natural gas), and this figure is typically included as some part of the model number designation for the unit. This input figure is what you use to size the gas line, combustion air requirements, etc.

Also included in the unit's specifications is an output figure in btuh since most devices operate at only about 80% or so efficiency. A lot of the heat energy goes right up the flue. The Sooper Heater model 80 is likely to have an output of 65,000 btu or 65 MBH. These are the two numbers you use to select and size your heating system components. Understand which number you need to be addressing.

If the unit is used at elevations above 2000 ft. (exact level varies with manufacturer), the unit's output is then de-rated a certain percentage for every 1000 ft. increase in elevation. Less oxygen at higher altitudes means that less gas gets burned. This is an issue in Denver and other higher altitudes. Also affects fan selections.

As far as heating calculations go, Q=U x A x Delta T

Or in other words, have someone knowlegeable perform a load calculation that you can have some confidence in. While everyone who has posted to this thread is trying to help, anecdotal information and opinions are the wrong way to go. If you have a vendor run a calc, and also make a unit selection, you have a single source of responsibilty, as well as someone who has a vested interest in getting things right. Plus if you use someone local, they will know the climate conditions that are particular to your area.

In reading your posts, I am not clear what indoor temps you are trying to achieve. If your target is 55 degrees, tell that to your vendor and let him/her worry over temperature rise. Some garage operations may require higher temperatures. You can always set the thermostat to any desired set point, if you have the system to deliver the intended results.

Insulation is worth every penny, super insulation not so much. Air leakage/infiltration is equally important, especially if you encounter strong winds. And above all, don't forget that a safe and healthy environment also requires ventilation air.

Knowing that you are proceeding correctly is worth a little extra cost, especially if you end up with the properly sized unit. You will be happier in the end.

Offered only as opinion
 
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240sxguy

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Well, after thinking about it and what has been said.. the 45k unit will work just fine. My original intent was to keep the garage above freezing all year round' because I wanted to run a utility sink to the garage. Well, that just isn't feasable because I have no way to run a drain. I am going to drop a hose bib out to the garage with a shutoff in the house. This makes the selection less critical.

It can get down into the -20s for a week or so here but MOST of the time its in the teens/single digits. If I can get the garage to 40 degrees I am comfortable. And doing the calculations... the 45k btu input setup should be fine. If its too cold when its -20 outside, Ill stay in the house. Its pretty easy to deal with LOL. It is rare any of my tinkering is that important.

I am not planning on over-insulating. I know there is a a point of diminishing returns but I am just going to address the insulation as if its a living space. Same r-values that are required for a new house. I blew insulation into my house this December to an R-50 or so rating and it made everything much more comfortable. Fairly cheap at that.

I caulked and sealed all gaps before this winter when I painted the house and garage. The windward side of the garage is also primarily under ground which is a plus.

Thanks guys, I appreciate everybodies help.

Evan
 

duderjay

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Dude the masters license I am required to carry by the state makes me an expert and the 75 Evan has the option of would be way overkill and would short cycle thus running more and using more fuel and never really heating the space properly .The 45 will do the job just fine if he does the insulation he is planning. The general ule in HVAC is a little undersized is always better than any amount of oversized. I wont say I know all there is to know about the industry but this is one of the most important things you learn in the industry an over sized unit will not work as efficiently as a slightly undersized unit.


Rick

My apoligies.

I had to go to two heating experts, the first one put in a 35k btu floor mounted unit that ran non stop and could not get the garage above 10 c when it was 0 c outside.
The second guy suggested a 45k btu unit, but then changed his tune when I told him what I wanted to do. Basically was to shut the heat off when I wasnt working in there and then turn it on and have it 20 to 25 deg c in a short time.

Also these ****** different btu calculators told me either i needed a 36 k btu to a 75 k btu heater.

so i went with a 60k unit which was derated to 55k for the elevation I live at. And could nt be happier with the reznor i had put in. last night i had the garage door wide open and was doing some timing on my camaro with the heater louvers pointed at me with it being minus 17 c last light i was still roasty warm.
 
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240sxguy

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Sounds to me like you like a really warm shop duderjay. In canadian, I am looking for 10c temperatures at best. We dont see extended periods of weather below 0f around here. I do plan on leaving the heater on all the time. Quite honestly, I was in my garage working feverishly yesterday and it was in the low 40s f. I was in a t-shirt and jeans.

Sounds to me like that 35k btu unit was very undersized, and I am glad you found something that works for you. Thank you for your input, it is appreciated and helpful.

Evan
 

duderjay

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Sounds to me like you like a really warm shop duderjay. In canadian, I am looking for 10c temperatures at best. We dont see extended periods of weather below 0f around here. I do plan on leaving the heater on all the time. Quite honestly, I was in my garage working feverishly yesterday and it was in the low 40s f. I was in a t-shirt and jeans.

Sounds to me like that 35k btu unit was very undersized, and I am glad you found something that works for you. Thank you for your input, it is appreciated and helpful.

Evan

guys I also forgot to mention that i planned the garage to be a another part of our home that i can spend time with the kids and family. So for me its important to have this a warm living space

Also i live in calgary alberta and i have seen minus 45 celcius out here for a 5 day stretch

hmm madison WI you are pretty close to where our factory is at in beloit WI it can get pretty damn cold out there and windy as well. I've been at the factory a couple of times and that wind off the lakes *****
 
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240sxguy

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I am pretty close to beloit, thats for sure. Yeah it gets cold but definitely no -45 degrees! Damn!

Evan
 

rickairmedic

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My apoligies.

I had to go to two heating experts, the first one put in a 35k btu floor mounted unit that ran non stop and could not get the garage above 10 c when it was 0 c outside.
The second guy suggested a 45k btu unit, but then changed his tune when I told him what I wanted to do. Basically was to shut the heat off when I wasnt working in there and then turn it on and have it 20 to 25 deg c in a short time.

Also these ****** different btu calculators told me either i needed a 36 k btu to a 75 k btu heater.

so i went with a 60k unit which was derated to 55k for the elevation I live at. And could nt be happier with the reznor i had put in. last night i had the garage door wide open and was doing some timing on my camaro with the heater louvers pointed at me with it being minus 17 c last light i was still roasty warm.

Dude no problem at all and yes I agree there are alot of guys out there that call themselves EXPERTS. I will admit I am not an expert but I have been at it for 20 years and if I am not sure on something I will look it up . I spent the day today fixing things where other companies had sent out what I refer to as 2 dummies in a truck :D. I still run calls and I do all the estimates for my company so I can sit down with the homeowner and get a good idea of what they are looking for and give them the best bang for their buck. I would say in your situaytion the 60K BTU was the way to go but in Evans the 45K BTU wil do what he wants and still alow him to be out there in a shirt and pants working when he wants.

Rick
 
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240sxguy

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I have to wear pants? MAAAAN! lol

Well, I am keeping this little guy. I love the diminutive size. Sits down 12" from the ceiling. Works great, one end of my garage only has 7.5' high ceilings and thats where I am going to put it.

Off to home depot for a vent kit!

Evan
 

rickairmedic

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Naaaaaaaa your from Wi. anything above 15-20* is shorts weather :D. I grew up in Fla. so I am usually in pants till it hits 60* :D.

Rick
 
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240sxguy

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Hey guys, I know this got a little O/T but I wanted to update it. I installed the 45 k unit and it works great. I am not insulated yet and it raised the garage temps 20 degrees FAST.

I am a happy camper, thanks for all the help!

Evan
 
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240sxguy

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It was pretty funny, because as I was finishing it was getting cold enough where my hands hurt. I flipped on the power, praying for heat and no explosions! lol. Within 5 minutes I was comfortable enough to clean the mess up that I had made!

Thanks again guys.

Evan
 
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