How many recessed cans + EV Charger

[fastsvo]

Hey Guys,

I am looking to upgrade the lighting in a 2 car, 440sqft garage. Ideally, I would like to use 6" cans for the flush look and because I have a low ceiling (9ft). I'm on the fence on how many cans I would need and so far leaning towards at least 8 of them. Too little? The workbench will get it's own 4ft tube light.

On the subject of future EV charging, I am learning that today's chargers are using 40amps and tomorrow's charger @ 80amp (skipping 60amps altogether). Does this sound about right?

Thanks in advance.

 

[ddawg16]

Lets talk about lights first......

Cans are good....less chance you are going to smack a bulb with a 2x4.....I have 18 6" cans with LED's in the 1st floor of my garage. 3 zones....Front, left rear and right rear. With all the lights on, plenty of light....and using about as much juice as 2 incandescent bulbs...

I only turn on the zone I'm working in. Over the work benches I also have undercabinet lights.

EV....80Amps? Yea, I believe it. I'm assuming 240Vac. Not much more than a large electric tankless water heater.

Side note....eventually you will be able to use your EV to provide power for your house in the event of a power outage...

And coming soon to a home near you....stationary storage. A box about the size of a portable generator but it's batteries....enough energy to power you house for about a day

 

[PhysicsDude]

Most EVs only charge at 20-30A @240V.

Tesla has a new charger that says it can charge up to 100A, from my understanding it is programmable to charge anywhere from 20A-100A, although currently the highest capacity Model S and Xs can only be charged at a maximum of 72A @ 240V. So I would say you're right, 40A (typically a 50A Nema 14-50 plug) is standard for today, but "tomorrow" 80A might be more common.

From my experience I don't think its much to worry about. Unless you have some specific niche need to charge your car quickly, most EV owners charge their car at night, and it doesn't matter if it takes 2-4-6 hours to charge as long as its full when they wake up, at which point a 40A/50A charger is more than capable.


I have a ~21x21 standard 2 car garage with 8.5' ceilings, same as you. I went with 9 recessed can lights, 3 rows of 3. I wish I would have gone 12 cans, or used 4' LED tube type fixtures. Even with 9 cans, the lighting isn't that even, and the shadows are pretty bad if you're using it as a work space.

You could consider 1'x4' or 2'x4' recessed edge-lit fixtures, they're kind of the best of both worlds, although they're a little pricey.

 

[fastsvo]

I too am starting to think that I need more cans or just think of another lighting system all together. Problem is the electrician is getting started next weekend, so I have to jump on this pronto!

I originally bought 6 of those Costco 4ft LED tube lights and I still can use them but looking for a cleaner "flush" look, yet still perform when needed.

With regards to EV charging, I don't currently own one but thought hey this is the time to wire up the garage for a potential future EV. The previous owner had built a small studio inside (demolished now) and dedicated 100amps running to it. I figure I can use this to my advantage. Of course, from an overall picture, I need to plan for enough "headroom" if I ever get an air compressor, etc...


Thanks!

 

[Stevenanto]

Hi fastsvo,

I’m in the same boat as you, I’m planning on buying an ev in the future but also planning on building a detached garage this summer. I’ve been trying to decide 1) how to pass my 240 2) which type of wire to go with 3) if I should add another breaker panel in the detached garage.

What I have read is that it will take some time for us to hit 100 amp, the higher the amps the faster it’ll charge hence the super chargers they have. I would prepare myself for this and leave enough space on my panel for this and get the proper wire even though it is in a distant future. Ev might be the best option available to us in fifteen years. Better to plan ahead instead of redoing work later on.

I have also read that other ev usetwenty or maybe forty amps (leaf and volt)

 

[fastsvo]

Hi fastsvo,

I have also read that other ev usetwenty or maybe forty amps (leaf and volt)

Hey @Stevenanto!

Yes, same thoughts as well. I was looking up the charging specs on the Bolt and was surprised to see it maxes out @ 30 amps. Now we all know that will change as the years pass by, but I also don't want to reserve a ton of power for something I may never own and IF it will impact whatever else I would like to do in the garage (not sure how to gauge that).

 

[ddawg16]

While some of the cars can be charged fast, there are issues in doing so. The BMB has to keep a close watch on cell temp. If it gets too warm it has to stop the charging.

You are better off charging over night at a slower rate.

 

[Radix2]

The best thing to do is to run as large a service for EV charging as you can, but be aware that EV charging is considered a continuous load, so you need to upsize the wire and breaker for 125% of the normal current rating. ( so 100A charging load = 125A wire and ocp, 40A charging=50A circuit, etc.)

Running to a small subpanel near the likely charging spot is a good way to handle the uncertainty in requirements over time. You can put in the 30,40,50 A breaker now, and something else if needed in the future with just a short stub to the plug or hardwired EVSE as needed.

If there is extra capacity, a second breaker for welding, compressor, etc. can be placed there too.

 

[fastsvo]

Lots of good ideas and suggestions.

On the subject of lighting and color, which kelvin value are you guys installing in your garages? I was thinking of using 4000k.

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[ddawg16]

4000K is a very good number. 5k is also good. Above that, it's going to start looking blue

Look for lights with a high CRI. 90+ will give you good color rendering....

 

[fastsvo]

4000K is a very good number. 5k is also good. Above that, it's going to start looking blue

Look for lights with a high CRI. 90+ will give you good color rendering....

Looking at 1x4 troffers online and lots of them bave a CRI in the low 80's. How big of an issue is this?

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[cybrdyke]

Looking at 1x4 troffers online and lots of them bave a CRI in the low 80's. How big of an issue is this?

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It's not. You were living under 70 CRI fluorescents all your life.
Yes, 80 is better and 90 is better still. But for a garage, it's not important.
Getting higher CRI usually adds cost to the product.
CD

 

[fastsvo]

Can anyone please link me to some 1x4 LED/Dimmable Troffers that are of good quality? My research is finding a lot of junk out there. Thanks!

 

[PhysicsDude]

These Lithonia panels are great quality, and not a bad price for a commercial brand. Most of the chinese ones are about $50/each, so may as well spend the extra $20 for a name brand.

https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/2...aM3dNk41k-EZ1ks7ByZy8jtzuTv4AEAEaAt4-EALw_wcB

Keep in mind they dim using 0-10v dimmers, not just a regular wall dimmer switch.

 

[rburke65]

Won't he number of cans be dictated by the wattage ...lumens? EV charger.....go buy the cor first and go from here.

 

[cybrdyke]

Can anyone please link me to some 1x4 LED/Dimmable Troffers that are of good quality? My research is finding a lot of junk out there. Thanks!

Center basket troffer by Techbrite:

http://techbrite.com/pdf/f873b90a-78bf-4c35-aedb-6f018e8442c8.pdf

IMO, 1x4 troffers look weird being long and skinny, but....to each his own....
2x2 Those are much nicer looking.
CD

 

[fastsvo]

Thanks for the link!

Still on the fence on which direction I will go.

 

[kaffine]

For BEV charging a 50 amp 240V outlet per bay should be enough. You could always up size the wiring just in case.

The Tesla Model X their SUV is able to add 20 miles per hour off of a 240V 50amp circuit. The Model 3 will add 30 miles of range per hour using the same circuit. Others should be similar. So unless you are driving very long distances daily or have a need for quick turn around you should be able to get by with just a 50amp outlet.

Now if you are planning on getting a BEV semi truck then you will probably need more power.

BEV adjust their power draw based on what the circuit can supply. So even if it can pull more power it doesn't have to.

 

[Viper98912]

I am a huge fan of recessed cans. Flourescent tubes and their led counterparts just don't appeal to me, and frankly just don't look modern/chic enough for a nice home.

Two houses ago, I put in (10) 6" LED cans in a 2 car garage. 2 rows of 3, then near the front workbench/cabinet wall, I put 4 in a row. I also put in (3) puck lights directly over the workbench. Also a silver gloss epoxy floor. Never really had an issue with lighting.

The next house was a 3 car garage, and this one had (15) 6" LED's. I upped it by also putting LED strip lighting in the 4 wall corners (vertically), 300 LEDs per 16 ft strip. Mounted behind opaque plastic so you don't get the sparkle annoyance. You'd be surprised at how "dark" the garage felt with only the 15 LED cans on, and not the corner lighting; they really made a difference. They fill in all the dark spots or shadows that are created from overhead.

Current house is also a 3 car, but I was only able to put in (12) cans due to the location of the ceiling trusses and my requirement for symmetry. Nonetheless, 12 cans is definitely a huge step up from any "regular" (rinky dinky) 2 or 3 bulb setup in a garage. This time I upped the strip corner lighting to 600 LED per 16ft strip, and with brighter chips. No problems with light in this garage

YOU'LL NEVER GO BACK once you've had more light. At first you'll scrunch your eyes when you first turn them on and think "why did I do this, it's too bright", and then in the future when you go to your neighbors house you'll think "HOW CAN YOU SEE ANYTHING IN HERE?! I CAN'T EVEN GET THE GROCERIES OUT OF THE CAR"

Do it.

If anyone needs any pictures for ideas, feel free to PM me.

 

[Viper98912]

PS - As for the EV charger, WOW! 50 amp?! 100 amp? Any regular home panel nowadays of 150amp may not even be able to support this concentrated load?

I put in a 30 amp 240V outlet in my home when I built it recently, for this kind of thing in the future. I guess I'll just be limited. 50 amp is huge, 100 is just obnoxious.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Thanks for the link!

Still on the fence on which direction I will go.

You previously asked for troffers, which are typically for T-grid drop ceilings.
Do you have a drop ceiling?
Are you thinking of using a drywall to troffer adapter kit?
Are you unwilling to sacrifice ~4" of your ceiling for basic 2-lamp 4ft LED strip lights? (If so, why?)

 

[fastsvo]

You previously asked for troffers, which are typically for T-grid drop ceilings.
Do you have a drop ceiling?
Are you thinking of using a drywall to troffer adapter kit?
Are you unwilling to sacrifice ~4" of your ceiling for basic 2-lamp 4ft LED strip lights? (If so, why?)

Yes, we are putting in a drop ceiling and will be <9ft so clearance is at a premium here. With regards to the troffers an adapter kit will definitely be needed.

I've found a couple of 120 watt replacement 6" led lights that offer anywhere between 900-1200 lumens each in 4000k & 5000k variants. Now the real math here is how many total lumens should I shoot for? I've seen suggestions between 8k -16k and figure the cans will be placed every 2.5ft.

 

[cybrdyke]

how many total lumens should I shoot for?

Total lumens isn't a figure that's used in lighting calculations. It's a useless figure. It's pretty common for folks to make this mistake, though.
You need a lighting layout to help you determine your foot-candle levels.
CD

 

[Platonic Solid]

Yes, we are putting in a drop ceiling and will be <9ft so clearance is at a premium here. With regards to the troffers an adapter kit will definitely be needed.

That didn't quite clear it up for me. This is a typical T-grid drop ceiling:

​

A drywall to troffer (grid) adapter kit can be used on drywall ceilings to emulate a T-grid drop ceiling:

I've found a couple of 120 watt replacement 6" led lights that offer anywhere between 900-1200 lumens each in 4000k & 5000k variants. Now the real math here is how many total lumens should I shoot for? I've seen suggestions between 8k -16k and figure the cans will be placed every 2.5ft.

You're not shooting for lumens, you're shooting for footcandles at 30" workplane which varies depending on tasks being done in there. Basic garage storage = 10-20fc. Mechanical repair work = 80-100fc. Not sure what dimensions your space is, but 6" recessed rounds are not likely to be the best solution for 80-100fc.

 

[yeldogt]

The standard at one time was 40 amp cable to be able to get you 32 amp .... all the recommendations are now to do minimum 60amp cable to run the 48amp chargers.

The rapid chargers need 70amp .... I'm just running the conduit so I can get a 100amp through it if need be.

 

[fastsvo]

We are building an attic space, so the ceiling will be sheet rock. I have seen those images with the troffers and recessed cans - its one of the examples I am considering. For my needs, this is going to be a regular garage where once in awhile I can wrench on and detail my cars.

Attached, is a drawing of my garage. It's basically a 21x22 space.

Thanks!

 

[Milton Shaw]

I just put 20 halo cans in with the halo 6" led trim. These are in kitchen, living room, and dining room not shop. These have very even light and very bright for 9 watt each.. So bright that I bought dimmers for each room, three way on each one. These the bulb is much closer to flush with the face trim so the angle of light is much brighter than recessing the bulb back up in the fixture. These trims have a bulb base on wire extension that screw into the can and then the light is just the trim ring basically. Very pleased with the light output compared to the flourescent fixtures I replaced.

 

[Platonic Solid]

fastsvo - Surface mounted 4ft 2-lamp LED strip lights is your best bang for your buck option.
See post 1 of the best light fixture ever thread.

 

[fastsvo]

I just put 20 halo cans in with the halo 6" led trim. These are in kitchen, living room, and dining room not shop. These have very even light and very bright for 9 watt each.. S

Yes, I run the same exact light inside my house and they are indeed great. Since, I was fixated on the lumens, I was dismissing the Halo lights due to their 680 lumen rating (the 65watt equivalent version).

I do notice that some led 6" recessed lights are more flush with the trim than the Halo's, is there a difference on how it will spread the light?

 

[fastsvo]

fastsvo - Surface mounted 4ft 2-lamp LED strip lights is your best bang for your buck option.
See post 1 of the best light fixture ever thread.

Yes, I do recognize that as well. Just trying to figure out a sensible solution with the 6" cans due to the already low ceiling height.

That list has indeed been very helpful!

 

[Lotek]

PS - As for the EV charger, WOW! 50 amp?! 100 amp? Any regular home panel nowadays of 150amp may not even be able to support this concentrated load?

I put in a 30 amp 240V outlet in my home when I built it recently, for this kind of thing in the future. I guess I'll just be limited. 50 amp is huge, 100 is just obnoxious.

You won't be able to find a charger that small, we had a 30amp charger installed in front of the dealership back in 2012, when it died we found out that they were pretty much obsolete, they had to run an entire new service out there, as even the conduit was too small. Now we have conduit run to support two 50amp chargers, but only one installed, it's called futureproofing.

 

[Platonic Solid]

fastsvo - 9' ceiling isn't that low. What's going on in there that you believe you can't sacrifice a few inches for surface mount fixtures?

 

[cybrdyke]

Yes, I run the same exact light inside my house and they are indeed great. Since, I was fixated on the lumens, I was dismissing the Halo lights due to their 680 lumen rating (the 65watt equivalent version).

I do notice that some led 6" recessed lights are more flush with the trim than the Halo's, is there a difference on how it will spread the light?

The ones that have the light source flush with the trim are glarey as hell. The recess helps hide the source from direct view. At 9', this is an issue.
Recessing decreases the beam angle to some degree, obviously. Well worth it in most cases.
CD

 

[bigb56]

No need to install bulky, insulation barrier penetrating cans. This type of light does not interfere with your insulation barrier and can be installed right over a ceiling joist. The light is incredible, and everyone that I have installed them for loves them. Of course there will always be that .001% that will disagree

https://www.lotusledlights.com/recessed-lighting/6-inch/12w-super-thin

 

[Platonic Solid]

4ft 2-Lamp 5280 Lumen (2640lm/bulb) surface mount strip light = $26.86 = 197 lm/$
Above Lotus 6" round 800 Lumen recessed downlight = $54 (link) = 15 lm/$

Lotus 6" round is fine for accent lighting, but cost is prohibitive for functional shop lighting assuming you actually want to do something in there.

 

[Viper98912]

No need to install bulky, insulation barrier penetrating cans. This type of light does not interfere with your insulation barrier and can be installed right over a ceiling joist. The light is incredible, and everyone that I have installed them for loves them. Of course there will always be that .001% that will disagree

https://www.lotusledlights.com/recessed-lighting/6-inch/12w-super-thin

My buddy has these in his house and loves them.

I wasn't going that expensive, so I had recessed cans put in when I built my house (and added retrofits where I didn't have any) and bought the "Commercial Electric" home depot brand 4 pack of lights. They were on sale from $35/box to $28/box at one point in time, so at $7 bucks a light they were a bargain. You can tell they are cheaply made of thin plastic, but for 7 bucks, nobody is exactly looking up at your lights and commenting on them. Just an overall "wow that looks nice".

These have definitely come a long way by the way, I remember 5 years ago buying these with large metal housings, large metal controllers and heat sinks that took up at least 3/4 of a standard 6" housing. Now they're small, thin, and cheap. And the "cheap" ones were $35 each! And they even have some now that fit in a standard J-box.

 

[bigb56]

4ft 2-Lamp 5280 Lumen (2640lm/bulb) surface mount strip light = $26.86 = 197 lm/$
Above Lotus 6" round 800 Lumen recessed downlight = $54 (link) = 15 lm/$

Lotus 6" round is fine for accent lighting, but cost is prohibitive for functional shop lighting assuming you actually want to do something in there.

There are alternatives, we are buying a 6" Lotus "look alikes" for $31. Don't forget when figuring the cost to deduct the price of the can you won't be needing, and the labor, and the savings in energy due to not having a 6" hole in your insulation. Lotus doesn't look too bad then.

 

[Platonic Solid]

There are alternatives, we are buying a 6" Lotus "look alikes" for $31. Don't forget when figuring the cost to deduct the price of the can you won't be needing, and the labor, and the savings in energy due to not having a 6" hole in your insulation. Lotus doesn't look too bad then.

My comparison is to a surface mounted strip light, thus no holes in ceiling. The 6" round still has a driver the has to go somewhere. You'd need 7 800 lumen 6" round fixtures to equal to lumen output of 1 4ft strip light. There's no question that installing 7 rounds will cost more than 1 strip light.

 

[bigb56]

My comparison is to a surface mounted strip light, thus no holes in ceiling. The 6" round still has a driver the has to go somewhere. You'd need 7 800 lumen 6" round fixtures to equal to lumen output of 1 4ft strip light. There's no question that installing 7 rounds will cost more than 1 strip light.

No question at all but there are some who prefer the clean, round look so I put the suggestion out there as an alternative to actual cans that people are discussing, which are becoming obsolete as we know them.