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How many tons??

N8

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Dec 2, 2006
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In a house
This may be a little O/T because it deals with a house.
How many A/C "tons" (if thats the correct question) should be required to feed a 5500 sq. ft. house?

It currently has:
1 - 5 ton unit
2 - 3 1/2 ton units
1 - 3 ton unit

They are about to die. Could I get away with less with todays more efficient units?
 
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glntom

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Lots of variables go into the proper sizing of a/c units, I would find a HVAC guy I could trust and get an estimate(or 3)
 

bonneyman

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As has been stated, many variables are in play when figuring how many tons of refrigeration a building needs.
The basic rule of thumb is 400 square feet per ton. So, 5500 square feet would need 13.75 tons. They have 15 tons existing. If they are not being cooled sufficiently, then there is probably a problem with the air distribution or excessive heat gain. These things require an inspection and heat load calculation for the structure by a licensed contractor.
 

BoostAddiction

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Western North Carolina
The only really accurate way is to use the "Manual J" method to calculate load. It uses room sizes, solar insolation and lots of factors to come up with the correct size.

The problem with rules of thumb is that they tend to produce larger-than-optimal sizes, which tend to cause short-cycling, which then fails to remove enough humidity from the home.

Find an HVAC installer who uses this method.

Also, the advice above is key- even a correctly sized unit will perform badly if ducting is designed poorly.
 

ket-tek

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The only really accurate way is to use the "Manual J" method to calculate load. It uses room sizes, solar insolation and lots of factors to come up with the correct size.

I'm having trouble finding anyone who does it right in my area. I've called quite a few companies and asked about getting one done because I want to upgrade soon also and if I'm gonna pay out that kind of money I want it designed correctly.

All the people I've talked to seemed to get offended when I said I wanted a manual J done, they all said similar things like "I've been putting in systems for 25 years it will be right." And a few sales people didn't have a clue of what the term was?! They also were clueless when I asked about using flow balancing hoods to test/set all the registers outputs..

I'm now wondering should one be looking to a special service to get a J done, and not a hvac dealer? That way there is no sales pressure there. Does anyone know of any service, or what the approx cost of a true manual J design would run?
 

danski0224

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This may be a little O/T because it deals with a house.
How many A/C "tons" (if thats the correct question) should be required to feed a 5500 sq. ft. house?

It currently has:
1 - 5 ton unit
2 - 3 1/2 ton units
1 - 3 ton unit

They are about to die. Could I get away with less with todays more efficient units?


I'm having trouble finding anyone who does it right in my area. I've called quite a few companies and asked about getting one done because I want to upgrade soon also and if I'm gonna pay out that kind of money I want it designed correctly.

All the people I've talked to seemed to get offended when I said I wanted a manual J done, they all said similar things like "I've been putting in systems for 25 years it will be right." And a few sales people didn't have a clue of what the term was?! They also were clueless when I asked about using flow balancing hoods to test/set all the registers outputs..

I'm now wondering should one be looking to a special service to get a J done, and not a hvac dealer? That way there is no sales pressure there. Does anyone know of any service, or what the approx cost of a true manual J design would run?

You can go to www.hvaccomputer.com and pay $50 for a limited time license and do it yourself.

Windows, window coatings and orientation make a huge difference in equipment sizing.

That will give you the load, but if the ductwork is undersized or has bad fitting choices and lots of air leaks performance still suffers. Manual J does not address these variables.

Connecting a 5 ton AC unit to ductwork that has 3.5 tons of airflow capacity yields less than 5 tons of performance.

I looked at one the other day. It has 2 systems with 160,000 btu of heating capacity and 5 tons of cooling capacity. The ductwork buried in the finished basement will not support this.

The manual J comes up with 40k of heat and 24k of cooling for the >>entire house<<. The ductwork will support this. Those numbers would be diferent if the house was turned 90* on the lot.

That house was just over 3,000 sf.

Unless N8 has literally walls of glass facing west and south, I don't know why you would need 15 tons of cooling. If you have glass walls, you should pony up for better glass. That will be cheaper in the long run.

Rules of thumb are BS. Square feet per ton can vary from 300 to 1000. It depends on construction, glass and which way it faces.
 
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boseefus402

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Dec 30, 2006
Messages
183
Manual J doesn't lie, and really it is pretty self explanatory and simple to follow to where the "do it yourselfer" can actually do the calculation. The cost to get the program for yourself will more than pay for itself with the right system not short cycling etc. You can also see the things that make a huge difference in the calc so you can decide for yourself if maybe you should be addressing other issues like adding another 12-15" of attic insulation is worth it or not.

Do the calc for yourself and then size each unit yourself then you can more effectively use a "standard" contractor to change the indoor and outdoor units out.
 
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N8

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Dec 2, 2006
Messages
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In a house
Thanks for the input guys. I will use someone to do all of the work on this but I just needed a bit more info to make a knowledgeable decisions once I am presented with options if I decided to replace the units.
AC is one thing I have never learned anything about.
The house is a single story Ranch, all electric, built in 1979. As stated above it currently has four units feeding four zones of the house. I would dare to say that the windows and insulation are marginal at best. Front of the house faces South. It is basically an "L" with the leg facing East.
I will look into the Manual J.
Thanks again.
 

hydramatic

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Jun 26, 2009
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Alabama
another idea....install a roof cap and double the amount of soffit vents..let that attic vent..
 

redsky49

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near the coast in eastern North Carolina
The simplest answer is that if your current system appears to be sized correctly, merely replace like with like.

If the existing system is 12-15 years old, the higher performance efficiencies of current HVAC systems would allow you to downsize capacities 10% and still be of sufficient capacity.

Unless you have reason to believe (actual evidence, not supposition) that your air distribution system (ductwork, etc.) is grossly mis-sized or in poor condition, you should have no worries over that issue. Even if the existing ductwork is wildly undersized, a knowledgeable engineer or system designer can make the proper system adjustments to adequately utilize the existing ductwork.

There are no "rules of thumb" regarding residential HVAC. There are too many variables to permit you to say that 400 sq. ft. per ton is acceptable, or that 600-750 sq. ft. per ton is correct. Either of those ranges, or neither, may be correct. Climate, fenestration, envelope insulation, infiltration, occupant load and usage, lighting and appliances, etc. all are factors that must be included in any load calculation. Unless you are doing cookie cutter designs, each project is a prototype.

And while a ton is 12,000 btuh, there is also a latent cooling requirement that varies considerably between applications that must be taken into account. [For those interested, the sensible portion of most equipment cooling "tons" is generally anywhere from 70-80%, the remainder is latent cooling. Some systems will vary more than this which is why the equipment selection must be tailored to the particular application]. For proper occupant comfort, as well as protection of wood furniture, artwork, paneling, and the prevention of mold and mildew, etc., indoor humidity levels must be controlled.

Manual "J" is a simplified load calculation checklist/spreadsheet that was designed to allow HVAC Contractors to make better system assessments than just "eye-balling" the application. It is essentially a "fill in the blank" project that takes less than an hour to complete. If properly performed, it will be suitable in many, though not all, situations. It is not the load calculation that an engineer would utilize, nor is it especially helpful for retrofits where other factors make also come into play.

Are there Utility Company rebates that may be available and may factor into your decision? Do you have a poor installation of your condensing units, or is the return air path restricted? Is the ductwork run in non-conditioned spaces and has inadequate insulation? Are the supply air registers adequately sized and properly located? Etc., etc., etc. Only a knowledgeable observer can give proper opinion over these and other issues. Manual "J" will not help you there.

There are some smart Contractors out there that can give you the correct answer, though they may be hard to find. A couple hours from a mechanical engineer making a site visit would be my recommendation, as they may also observe other issues that you were not previously aware of including electrical and plumbing, as well as code deficiencies. An engineer also would be a help in performing a final inspection prior to payoff.

Sometimes a little expense upfront for an expert opinion will pay off in the long run.

Hope this is helpful.

As always, offered only as opinion
 

danski0224

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Near Naperville, IL
If the existing system is 12-15 years old, the higher performance efficiencies of current HVAC systems would allow you to downsize capacities 10% and still be of sufficient capacity.

That doesn't make any sense.

A 1 ton 8 SEER or a 1 ton 13 SEER unit still has the same rated capacities as a 1 ton 16 SEER unit, right?

I suppose one should really be looking at EER instead of SEER.
 

boseefus402

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Dec 30, 2006
Messages
183
If you are looking for cooling only, look at SEER, if it's heat pumps you also need to look at HSPF.

The above statement is incorrect though, 3 tons is 3 tons regardless of SEER. That just refers to the amount of energy required to make those 3 tons.
 

Basskiller

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Feb 7, 2009
Messages
493
Location
s cal
I'm having trouble finding anyone who does it right in my area. I've called quite a few companies and asked about getting one done because I want to upgrade soon also and if I'm gonna pay out that kind of money I want it designed correctly.

All the people I've talked to seemed to get offended when I said I wanted a manual J done, they all said similar things like "I've been putting in systems for 25 years it will be right." And a few sales people didn't have a clue of what the term was?! They also were clueless when I asked about using flow balancing hoods to test/set all the registers outputs..

I'm now wondering should one be looking to a special service to get a J done, and not a hvac dealer? That way there is no sales pressure there. Does anyone know of any service, or what the approx cost of a true manual J design would run?

http://www.acca.org/contractors/ :thumbup:

Any contractor that is a member should be able to provide an accurate manual J
 

redsky49

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Jan 21, 2009
Messages
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near the coast in eastern North Carolina
Quote:
Originally Posted by redsky49 View Post
If the existing system is 12-15 years old, the higher performance efficiencies of current HVAC systems would allow you to downsize capacities 10% and still be of sufficient capacity.
That doesn't make any sense.

A 1 ton 8 SEER or a 1 ton 13 SEER unit still has the same rated capacities as a 1 ton 16 SEER unit, right?

I suppose one should really be looking at EER instead of SEER.


In equipment that predates the standards that were adopted prior to the early '90's (I can't recall the exact date), the manufacturer provided performance data is often optimistic. In fact some manufacturers have faced prosecution as a result (the name begins with a B).

As a rule, most contractor equipment was, in the past, selected to err on the safe side, resulting in over-sized furnaces and air conditioners. This trend has been reduced over the years as Contractors, as well as consumers (and the government) have required more accurate data, as well as more efficient performance.

A nominal 3 ton unit will vary in cooling capacity according to the particular manufacturer, the ambient outdoor temperatures, the selected coil, suction temperatures, etc., generally in the range of 32,000 to 37,000 btuh. But that is just part of the story.

Yes, according to the Energy Star ratings, a 3 ton unit at 13 SEER, should have comparable cooling capacity to a 3 ton 18 SEER from the same manufacturer, tested under the same conditions. It should also, in a perfect world, be easily compared to equipment from different manufacturers. Some times that is true, but not always.

Heat pumps should be looked at for efficiency by examining the C.O.P. for heating performance. Anything over 3.0 is a pretty good unit.

It's not always possible in 3-400 words to include every caution and nuance, particularly when attempting to write for an audience that may be uninformed in this area. Again, this is a great example why it may be worthwhile to engage the services of a professional engineer.

As always, offered only as opinion
 
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