How much force is too much when pulling wire through conduit?

[sevensandeights]

When the utility trench for my house to my barn was dug I wasn't there and the excavator put it in a very inconvenient spot that held up construction of the barn. I had to to hurry and run all my utilities and ended making a dumb mistake. I burried an extra piece of 1" conduit to use to run various wires in the future. Instead of leaving it empty I put direct burial coaxial cable and direct burial 6 pair 22g telephone wire. I am not sure what my reasons were for putting direct burial stuff in conduit but it's done now.

The conduit run goes through my basement wall and makes a 90 degree bend down to the trench and then another 90 degree at the bottom of the trench. Then, it's about 70' in a straigh line to the barn where it takes a 90 degree bend upwards and then through the foundation and then a 90 degree bend up to through the floor.

I now need to run cat 5 data cable and want to use the conduit. I tugged on the phone line and it pulled out about 6 inches and then got really tight. My plan was to attach a 1/4" 300# rated pull string to the house end of the cable and phone line and pull them both out and the string in. I would then pull cable, standard phone line, and cat 5 data through with the pull string. How hard can I pull on the wires to get them out of the conduit without doing damage to other things (conduit or foundation)?

I have a Jeep with a 8,000# winch and a ****** block (pulley) that I could hang from a rafter but am concerned that something bad will happen with this set-up!

Suggestion or advice greatly appreciated since the internet company is coming at 2PM monday to install the cat 5 cable.

 

[nate379]

I take it you didn't put any pull lines in the conduit?

 

[sdowney717]

could you pour some heavy weight oil down that conduit onto the cable from both ends?

 

[sdowney717]

either that or some kind of slippery gel which I have seen at Eck electric supply.
perhaps you might have to redig to the conduit, cut into it work the cable thru with a pull string attached and figure out some way to seal it again

 

[royalton10]

I put in a pull string if possible.

For my detached garage, I used a small cut portion of a plastic grocery bag with masons string attached at one end. In my case, I put shop vac at other end, turned it on and sucked string through 110 feet in less than 10 seconds. Then pulled through larger rope.

You are going to need to use lubricant with the 4-90 degree elbows. I have tried to pull #12 UF through conduit for outdoor light in another application from above. UF in conduit very hard to pull through.

You might likely have to leave what is already in conduit in place and attempt to get a pull string through. Good luck!!

 

[Mr_fixit]

That's a lot of 90 bends. Good luck. I hope you used electrical bends.? I'd pull all the old out and place all new in. ( cause you might ruin it) Or leave what's there there and direct bury what you need new. Make sure you use cable rated for outside use. Direct buried is fine. I would absolutely not use inside rated telephone wire in that conduit. Cause no matter what you do, over time, water will end up in that conduit. 300# for me wouldn't be strong enough. I'd get some extra special cable lube that has the glass micro balls in it to make it easiern and use lots of lube.

You still might not be able to do it. You shouldn't damage the conduit or the foundation. You'll need help, it's not a one man job. You might need to cut open the conduit, too, to temporarily eliminate a couple bends.

Good luck with that 2pm Monday deadline.

 

[djjsr]

There is a lubricant in an aerosol can that's made specifically for pulling wires. Can't remember the name of the stuff but it works very well.

 

[sdowney717]

Could you use a shop vac?
take a cotton ball and tie some of that lightweight string they use at HD for tie downs to the cotton ball and **** it thru the pipe. Ok, did not read about the bag, that sounds interesting but would it get stuck on the wires

 

[sevensandeights]

Digging up the conduit is NOT an option since it's 40" underground and most of it is nw under my new concrete sidewalk and driveway.

I have no problem buying lube but am not sure how much good it will do for the cable that is already in the conduit. I would definitely use it on whatever I pull through.

Do you think there is a realistic chance that I can get a pull rope through without taking the coax and phone line out? Those two cables take up 60% of the conduit. I would buy a 100' fish tape if I had to but don't want to waste the money if it isn't likely to work

I don't mind pulling hard I just don't want to damage anything. I think it will be fairly easy to pull all new lines at the same time if I could only get the existing stuff out of there.

 

[Diablo]

Seems like one of those things where your gonna have to take a chance it may not turn out how it should. Best bet is taking it all out and pulling it in as one pull i think, lots of lube. Maybe try and cut in a box somewhere who knows its hard to say.

 

[walrus]

can you cut the conduit where it 90's in side the house and in the barn and then repair it once done? Would eliminate a few bends and make it easier if so. Pull out the current wires with a string attached, pull in a rope and then pull in your new wires and then repair conduit. Probably all easier said then done

 

[David Ferguson]

If you didn't use 90 degree "sweeps", then it's unlikely you'll ever be able to pull anything through that conduit. Also, there is usually a maximum of 270 degrees of change that can be accommodated (sounds like you have 360). Even with sweeps, and a good pull cord, it can take a lot of pressure to pull wire a long distance. We pulled 3 00 wires in a 2" conduit about 320 ft. - Took a tractor hooked to the pull rope with a pulley where the conduit exiting the ground.

 

[Gary S]

A rope or a string will bind up and make pulling wire much more difficult. They aren't designed to do this job, and they do it poorly.
Lube the wires with electricians lube available at electrical stores, and pull wires with an electricians snake. That way you won't skin or tear the wires.

 

[gabeancounter]

How about a good wireless router? Unless you are going to be running a server out in your barn? I have a cisco at the house and three laptops. All watching videos, downloads etc.

 

[nehog]

What is the radius of the 90 degree bends? That is the main factor there.

BTW, I laughed at the pulling with the Jeep's winch, though that has been done a lot with power cables. The problem will be that it is highly likely you'll break the wire in the conduit now before it pulls out. Then again, I don't see any easy solution either. Maybe just do it and pray for the best? Also I'd see if I could find a liquid lubricant that I could force into the conduit to help, perhaps pulling the lubricant through with air pressure? The friction between the plastic jacket of the cable and the plastic conduit will be high.

 

[ddawg16]

Are you pushing the wire in at the other end? Doing so can really make a difference....

Lub that baby up.....just think back to your teenage days.....

You can get a water based lub at HD....KY works as well....

Like others have said....you may end up damaging your existing wire....

I would also suspect that the direct burial stuff might stick more in the PVC...one advantage of wire like THHN is that it slides in conduit better....

 

[sevensandeights]

The 90 degree bend inside the barn is under 4" of concrete as well so I will not be digging up conduit. The 90 degree bends are all pre-made 90's that I got at Lowe's when I bought the conduit. They look like a boomerang and each leg is about 5-6" long.

I will try pulling while someone is pushing and if that doesn't work then I will try to **** some mason's line through.

Lastly, my barn is all steel sided so most people I talked said that a wireless router 70' away at the house would never transmit a signal all the way to the barn. So, the plan was to run cat 5 from my existing wireless router and then put a second router in the barn.

 

[sdowney717]

1" conduit i on the small side for pulling through all those curves with that wire left inside.
Seriously, when I put in some 1 inch conduit I used that plastic poly twine you use at Home depot to tie stuff onto the car, truck.
It is very strong and lightweight. I put in 5 strands of that and each one easily pulled thru 1" conduit over 30 feet with 2 90 degree bends. Left them in for any future person to use.

whatever you **** with a vacuum got to be very light weight.
I wonder if you could rig a suction on one end and a blower on the other with a bag or somethin light tied to the line. Then it would be pulled and pushed at the same time.

leaf blower puts out some air.

What about using water pressure, that has some weight behind it and would push best.

 

[gabeancounter]

Our building @ work is 400' by 500'. Yes, 200k sqft. Two wireless routers supply the whole plant . All steel with concrete block wrap, brick veneer.

A $200 router will solve your issue. Easy to go over 70'. Good luck.

 

[sdowney717]

ok, but that router is inside and your inside? He is going from inside house to outside to inside metal barn. Routers even going thru house walls the signal gets weak

 

[DeadSock]

get 2 outdoor wireless boxes and make a "bridge"

example:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4608000&csid=_21
70' should be no problem.

 

[gabeancounter]

I can sit out side in the parking lot and access our system. 100 yards away.


Do you not ever see other people in your neighborhood connections? How far away are they?

 

[sdowney717]

from inside my house, I can go 2 houses away then the signal is gone.

 

[sevensandeights]

OK - no luck with the push and pull method and no luck with sucking a string through.

Last resort, the electrician burried 2.5" conduit for my 200 amp electrical service. There should be plenty of room in that conduit for a small cat 5 data line but I would guess that is against code by putting anything else in there.

If anyone with experience can tell me that a fish tape will work then I would gladly go spend the money. Remember, it is 1" conduit with two wires already inside and multiple bends.

 

[Stuart in MN]

The only way you're going to get anywhere is to pull both the coax and the phone line out together, you won't be able to remove just one and leave the other in place. Also, without knowing the diameters of the existing coax and phone line, since they are direct bury cables (with thicker jackets) there may not be enough room in the conduit for the cat 5 cable anyway.

Since the phone line has six pairs (and I assume you're not using all of them) you may want to try using some of the spare wires for the computer connection - the worst that could happen is it won't work, but you won't be out anything to find out.

 

[q miester]

the cables will twist around each other as they are being pulled in and if there was no soap or yellow 77 (dries like glue) the sheathing on the cable will grab each other instead of sliding.
1) So you will have to pull all out making sure that untill the cable disappears in pipe on opposite side it is straight and not draggiing on edge and repull new in using water based lube.
2) if you pull with winch and the cable breaks you can go to the middle of the70' between barn and house dig up the pipe cut it and pull each way out seperatley and repair pipe.
3)then repull as if it was a new install.
4) watch the cable if u pull with the winch if u see streching it will snap almost at the same time.
if you need more info let me know

 

[sevensandeights]

I will have extra pairs available with the phone wire but everything I have read indicates that phone cable will not work for high speed data transmission. Cat 5 cable has each pair twisted together to avoid interefence issues. Phone cable does not have any twisting.

. . . I think I am going to go with a fancy router. Last option is to buy a snake if someone with experience can tell me it will work.

 

[q miester]

there is no for sure answer if a fishtape will work. sometimes they do depends on the existing cable vs amount of space vs number of twists. i have done it before and i have had times it didnt go through.
Your telephone cable for computer wont work at high speed.
So get a Router then.

 

[gabeancounter]

I will have extra pairs available with the phone wire but everything I have read indicates that phone cable will not work for high speed data transmission. Cat 5 cable has each pair twisted together to avoid interefence issues. Phone cable does not have any twisting.

. . . I think I am going to go with a fancy router. Last option is to buy a snake if someone with experience can tell me it will work.

yes, you can use a standard phone line. You only need cat5 running between the router and pc. Problem is then you can not go from the router back inside the house without a cat5.

Just have them give you two routers and you can use the phone line. One inside for the house the other outside in barn.

 

[sdowney717]

they are up to cat 6 now for gigabyte ethernet
I believe cat 6 works like cat 5 with same ends.

He is right about pulling out both those wires at the same time

without the twisting you get crosstalking and data loss, so it slowsss down to compensate.

 

[sevensandeights]

yes, you can use a standard phone line. You only need cat5 running between the router and pc. Problem is then you can not go from the router back inside the house without a cat5.

Just have them give you two routers and you can use the phone line. One inside for the house the other outside in barn.

Can you explain this further?

My set up now is coax cable into a modem and then ethernet cord from the modem to a wireless router. I do not have any computers connected to the router via ethernet cord - everything is wireless. That is also the plan in the barn - wireless router and all wi-fi access devices.

 

[travisd]

My bet is that the existing phone cord and Coax are twisted enough to make pulling them separately impossible. I would vote for pulling them both back, then pulling the Coax back in along with two runs of Cat5e, which will serve you for some time to come.

Since it's underground you still need to use water-rated cable though - you will get water in the conduit, eventually.

I probably wouldn't bother with leaving behind a pull string since it's just going to get twisted with the cables.

If you decide to go wireless and live with more than a couple of other houses nearby, consider going with 802.11a gear to avoid interference. the Ubiquity Networks "nano" pieces are pretty decent, and rather cheap (A pair of their "Loco" devices would only run about $50/end). Use regular 802.11b/g/n to provide client connections at either end (where it's not hard wired). The Ubiquity stuff is designed to mount outdoors and has built-in directional antennas.

 

[rabidsquirrel]

could you pour some heavy weight oil down that conduit onto the cable from both ends?

Unless the insulation is rated for it that's a bad idea.

--

Also, 360 degrees is the make amount of bend, 270 sounds like a spec or an AHJ issue.

--

Somewhat related, last summer we bent a 40' 90 out of 4" PVC. I had no idea it was even possible...

 

[babzog]

either that or some kind of slippery gel which I have seen at Eck electric supply.
perhaps you might have to redig to the conduit, cut into it work the cable thru with a pull string attached and figure out some way to seal it again

This. If you can't pull the old cable out (you can apply some good force if you're not planning on using the existing cable anymore.. the big concern with pulling is stretching the wires). Otherwise, if it's not budging, dig one end (just to access the conduit during the long run to the house... you must have one spot where you can dig a hole to expose it?), cut it in two, pull out the pieces of wire and use a coupler to rejoin the cut halves.

You shouldn't have more than 2 90's (sum of all bends - could be 4 45's, 1 90 and a gentle 90 deg arc, etc.) in a given run without using pullboxes in between... gets too hard to safely pull wires. When you get it empty, put a small string/rope in and, when you pull the next batch of wire, pull through another string/rope. Use lots of pulling lube - it's cheap and really helps! Get someone to constantly squeeze it in your hands as you guide the wires into the conduit (while someone else pulls).

Your Cat5/Cat6 has 4 pairs, but only two are used for the ethernet connection. You can rig up a second ethernet port or use the remaining two pairs for two phone lines.

 

[GarageEnvy]

I'm not an electrician but I was just forced into a similar situation. My run was 75' and the conduit was 1". Two differences were that I was pulling #6 wire and I only had 2 90s in the run. I severed the old run of wire and had to run new. I tried just replacing the one severed wire and there was no way to fish it through. I pulled all the wires out and started new. I had an old styrofoam fishing bobber that fit the conduit. A household vacuum pulled it through with some 12lb fishing line. I used one strand of the old #6 as the pull wire. I when pushing and pulling failed I attached a single pulley on the rafter of the eave (prior to stucco) and pulled down instead of up. I barely pulled this off with no lube. My plan B was to add a double pulley on the base plate but I didn't need to. If there had been any more 90s I doubt I could have pulled these through. My suggestion is to pull all the old and do everything at once. Also I am sure that I was very lucky not to break the fishing line when pulling the single strand through. It had to be at it's limit.

 

[boosteddsm92]

Our building @ work is 400' by 500'. Yes, 200k sqft. Two wireless routers supply the whole plant . All steel with concrete block wrap, brick veneer.

A $200 router will solve your issue. Easy to go over 70'. Good luck.

The difference is the 2 WAPs at your work are already INSIDE the building whereas his is inside his house and still has to get through the outside of his pole building. Not saying it won't work, but you're comparing 2 different scenarios.

 

[Intel]

Not saying this is the best method and depending on the distance of the run I am not sure if it would be advisable. But you could try hooking up 2 pairs of the phone cable up to an ethernet jack and it should work.

For 10mb and 100mb networks you only really need to use 2 pairs of the 4 in a Cat5,5e,or 6 cable.

Have our apartment run like this as they only ran 1 cat 5 cable to each room so I split it out to 2 phone lines and 1 ethernet port for each room and it works like a charm at these speeds.

http://www.tek-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=1482219&page=10

 

[MFortie]

If you didn't use 90 degree "sweeps", then it's unlikely you'll ever be able to pull anything through that conduit. Also, there is usually a maximum of 270 degrees of change that can be accommodated (sounds like you have 360). Even with sweeps, and a good pull cord, it can take a lot of pressure to pull wire a long distance. We pulled 3 00 wires in a 2" conduit about 320 ft. - Took a tractor hooked to the pull rope with a pulley where the conduit exiting the ground.

Telecommunications wiring is limited to 180 degrees worth of bends. Computer cabling is usually limited to 25# or so of pulling force. Exceptions do exist for three 90's, however distance is limited (10m), conduit needs to be oversize (next trade size), and the final bend must be within 12" of the end. BTW, it's not a 'code' issue as much as a 'standards' issue.

Your only option is pulling the existing cables out and re-pulling them all together and HOPE they go through.

FWIW, I design structured wiring solutions for a living and did installations waaaayyyy back in the old days...

Regards,

Mark

PS -- I like the wireless bridge idea myself!

 

[rabidsquirrel]

Just an FYI for those about to do something like this: the best way to pull any cable (including Sim-Pull and No-lube brands) is have one person feeding (pushing into the conduit) and lubing and another person pulling. Lube is the key, as pointed out several times. No matter how careful you are you're going to get dirt in your PVC pipe, as well as water.

 

[gabeancounter]

I assumed you were using DSL. I think you can do the same thing with a cable modem. Two modems since you already have a RG6 pulled? Two wireless access points.

I really think you will have no problems with a wireless setup from your house. 25 yards is not far. Take your laptop outside and see how far you get with the setup you have now. They make signal boosters, better WAP, etc.