How much force is too much when pulling wire through conduit?

[sevensandeights]

OK - cable company showed up and they won't run the ethernet cable so I am back to square one. They would run another coax line and so I could set up another modem but that would mean I would have to pay another $40/month for a second internet service.

As for my existing wireless router signal - it's pretty weak. I don't even have access in some areas of my house. I took my IPOD touch around the house and lost the signal 10 feet out of my garage and my barn is another 50 feet away.

The existing cable and phone line will NOT come out. I have tried everything but hook it to the Jeep winch.

So, I have two options left (excluding the wireless bridge):

1.) Pull the ethernet cable through my electical service conduit.

2.) Figure out a way to use the extra strands in the phone cable that is already in the conduit. Can anyone confirm that that it will NOT work as high speed data cable?

Thanks!

 

[sdowney717]

it will work, BUT, you will probably loose speed. As errors pile up between the ports, the Ethernet cards will compensate and drop the speed, plus they have to resend packets that contain errors.
Or it might just work mostly ok. I ran a short 10 foot section of untwisted flat cable and got 100 mbps out of it.

Why not use the service conduit?
If your worried about electrical noise, you can buy shielded Ethernet cable

I dont like the wireless idea one bit. Too unreliable, IMO

 

[jay50]

Use high quality cat5e and run it in the service cable conduit.....and don't loose any sleep over it.

 

[sdowney717]

Use high quality cat5e and run it in the service cable conduit.....and don't loose any sleep over it.

Totally agree

I think I might go with cat 6 on a new install
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_6_cable

Totally comparable and less noise

Category 6 cable, commonly referred to as Cat-6, is a cable standard for Gigabit Ethernet and other network protocols that are backward compatible with the Category 5/5e and Category 3 cable standards. Compared with Cat-5 and Cat-5e, Cat-6 features more stringent specifications for crosstalk and system noise. The cable standard provides performance of up to 250 MHz and is suitable for 10BASE-T, 100BASE-TX (Fast Ethernet), 1000BASE-T / 1000BASE-TX (Gigabit Ethernet) and 10GBASE-T (10-Gigabit Ethernet). Category 6 cable has a reduced maximum length when used for 10GBASE-T; Category 6a cable, or Augmented Category 6, is characterized to 500 MHz and has improved alien crosstalk characteristics, allowing 10GBASE-T to be run for the same distance as previous protocols. Category 6 cable can be identified by the printing on the side of the cable sheath.[1]

 

[nehog]

OK - no luck with the push and pull method and no luck with sucking a string through.

Last resort, the electrician burried 2.5" conduit for my 200 amp electrical service. There should be plenty of room in that conduit for a small cat 5 data line but I would guess that is against code by putting anything else in there.

If anyone with experience can tell me that a fish tape will work then I would gladly go spend the money. Remember, it is 1" conduit with two wires already inside and multiple bends.

Do NOT put anything in the power lines conduit...

Generally a fish tape will get through most anything, I use them all the time. They have an end that allows it to work its way past minor obstructions and such. Also look to see which way the joints are glued! Go with the joints not against them (does that make sense? Pushing one way where it (the fish tape) hits each joint **** on will be much harder).)

I think you can do what you want, but you will have to work at it...

 

[VHF]

How about VDSL (virtual DSL) with a box at each end running over the existing phone cable?

This is a pair or boxes that you buy that would go from ethernet to phone cable to eithernet. No additional service from the cable or phone company.

 

[sdowney717]

http://www.powerlinecommunications.net/powerlineinternet.htm
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0032GVEUE/?tag=atomicindus08-20
also there is powerline internet

Likely other solutions could work, but I dont like them. Your getting away from good old standard ethernet and that is where future speed upgrades are best persued

 

[sevensandeights]

VDSL sounds interesting but I don't know anything about. I don't know much about any of this stuff that's why I just wanted to run the ethernet cable and put another router outer and be done.

Does anyone know where to get high quality data cable (cat5 or 6)? Lowe's has cut to length cable as well as 100' and 1000' spools but it seems to be household rated stuff.

 

[Intel]

Any picture of the phone wiring you ran. If it is Cat3 twister pair like I said before you can just hook that up with the 2 twisted pairs and your internet will work just fine.

 

[sdowney717]

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0026HUO88/?tag=atomicindus08-20

here 100 feet with ends already to go
$6.90

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000QZ0036/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Why overpay?
the second one is little bit more.

 

[sdowney717]

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003L18XWW/?tag=atomicindus08-20

here is shielded cat6 which i think has a thicker insulation and a metal inner shield
it is a better cable if your thinking of much higher future speeds/

TIA/EIA 568B specifications set a higher standard with CAT 6a (augmented) cabling providing twice the bandwidth of standard cat 6 (500mhz vs. 250mhz) for support of 10 Gbit systems in the future. Be ready for all the future holds of your critical high performance network system with our highly reliable CAT 6a cables.

 

[babzog]

Another option for simple wireless ethernet... get two direction antennae, one on the house, one on the shop. Make 'em face each other. Hook them up using Linksys WET11 (wireless ethernet bridge) boxes and tie them into your LAN at each end. The directional antennae are low profile and very unobtrusive.

If it were me though, I'd still dig one end of the conduit and do the ol' cut n' purge. Couple of hours and you're done... lots less f&*king around than most other options and the outcome is pretty much guaranteed to work.

 

[z28toz06]

Wire pulling lubricant will only work when you get it on the wire as you are placing it in the conduit. Plus its pricey.

Get your self some ivory dishwashing liquid. Pour it in the highest end of the conduit and stick a garden hose in there. It will cause the soap to foam and infiltrate the conduit. That should get the wires moving. There' nothing wrong with using buried coax in conduit, ...unless you get a cut in the line, then it will leak the migration fluid out at the hole, it seals itself. Work the cable back and forth from both ends (always helps to have a buddy on the other end).

Now you can attach a strong string or pull rope, of minimal stretch on the end and pull the existing lines out, check for any damage while you have them out. Be careful Poly or nylon ropes will melt a sched 40 conduit if you get the heat from friction working. Heat is your enemy here. Slow rope won't build up heat from friction as fast. I have actually cut sched 40 conduit with 25 pound test fishing line.

When you have everything out, you can flush the conduit out with water and then **** the water out with a strong shop vac. It doesn't hurt to have compressed air at the other end pushing at the other end while you are using the vacuum on the other. This should remove most of the water.

When you are ready to install the new wires, try to lay them out side by side for the pull back in to the donduit. The less tangling you have the better the chances of pulling just one wire out later on if needed. It would also be smart at this time to pull a spare pull rope in for later on.

When you are done, stick a rag in the top of both ends of the conduit, and cap it off with silicone RTV, to semi-permanently seal it up to keep moistur, rodents bugs, etc out of the conduit. MAKE SURE the conduit doesn't go directly in to a basement or building as the water will find its way in to the spot you don't want to get wet.

 

[Underdog]

Pull the old wire out, use whatever means possible including the jeep. I have had to pull old wires out of conduit before using a tractor loader backhoe bucket. The limiting factor is 1. breaking the wire your pulling 2. breaking or pulling the panel or junction box off the wall. The wire you pull out will be trash, use new single conductor THHN wire, pulls much better. As they have said pulling romex out of conduit is rough. 50/50 chance of it coming out before breaking something, good luck.

After rereading the post I was thinking direct burial UF romex, you have low voltage coax. Should be no problem pulling coax, use a come along and wrap the wire around the hook several times and anchor the other end to maybe a roof truss or rafter. It will take quite a strain to get it moving but once it does should come right out.

 

[SiGmA_X]

http://www.powerlinecommunications.net/powerlineinternet.htm
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0032GVEUE/?tag=atomicindus08-20
also there is powerline internet

Likely other solutions could work, but I dont like them. Your getting away from good old standard ethernet and that is where future speed upgrades are best persued

Not a fan. I just tried it out between rooms on different breakers, and couldn't transfer at over 2.5Mb/s. Pretty slow, far too slow to stream 1080p video.

 

[The mean fish]

I pull low voltage cable in conduit more than I'd like to admit, you do have a lot of 90s in that conduit but it's not impossible. The poster a couple up from this one explained it perfectly, fill that pipe with really soapy water and let it soak in for a day. That wire will come out easy as pie with some soap in there. Use proper lube when pulling new wire and you'll have no problems but be aware that even if you do add a piece of pull string to the wires you pull you could easily damage the wire you pull by adding more wire later so try to get it right the first... well second time.

In the past I've had a few really bad pulls, if all else fails get yourself a half gallon jug of WD40 and pour some in the high end of the pipe then hit that end with an air compressor to push it all the way down the line. With WD40 in there it'll come out like butter.

 

[The mean fish]

VDSL sounds interesting but I don't know anything about. I don't know much about any of this stuff that's why I just wanted to run the ethernet cable and put another router outer and be done.

Does anyone know where to get high quality data cable (cat5 or 6)? Lowe's has cut to length cable as well as 100' and 1000' spools but it seems to be household rated stuff.

If possible you want shielded CAT6 or 5E especially if your AC power conduit runs along side your low voltage conduit, you should be able to find that at any low voltage cable supplier by the foot.

 

[mustangmccance]

one of the problems is not so much the distance between the router and the shop, but the metal building. the wireless transmitters have a difficult time penetrating the sides. what I did was to place a wireless range expander in a window facing the house. my garage is over 100 feet from my house. the benefit is that now my entire 3 acres of land has excellent wireless reception.

 

[bgriffin509]

I would also strongly consider the wireless bridge. A couple of these Engenius 2610s or even some of the lower end models would work. You can mount one outside the metal building and get all the speed an internet connection would ever give you. In some test environments we used these units to achieve 15 mile distance, and we regularly use them for over a mile.

One good vendor that even has step by step configuration instructions. http://www.keenansystems.com/

 

[Bigpigdave]

one of the problems is not so much the distance between the router and the shop, but the metal building. the wireless transmitters have a difficult time penetrating the sides. what I did was to place a wireless range expander in a window facing the house. my garage is over 100 feet from my house. the benefit is that now my entire 3 acres of land has excellent wireless reception.

What range extender did you use and how much did it cost?
Thanks, Dave

 

[sevensandeights]

OK - I got a fish tape and plan on running this wire soon. I should have no problem get the tape through my service conduit but I can't stop thinking about using the smaller conduit that I had originally planned.

So . . . If I can get my fish tape from one end to the other (with lots of lube of course) does that guarantee that I will be able to pull it back through? I would hate to get it fished in and then not be able to get it fished out!!!!!!

 

[J-R0d]

You'd be amazed at what a difference cable lube will make. What I will say is that I have seen mule tape (the flat Kevlar rope used to pull cable) hooked to the back of a pickup truck to pull cable before . But, let me caution you. if you get into a bind one of three things will happen. You will either:

1. Burn through the jacket on one or all of the cables
2. Break the cable(s)
3. Get stuck at a bend and break the conduit

If you don't have cable gel, then I would suggest you LIBERALLY coat the cable with liquid soap. What I normally do is get to the highest spot on the pull and just start pouring liquid soap in. That will normally make all the difference in the world on pulling a cable.

The other thing you want to keep in mind is the 70% fill rule. You don't want the sum total of all your cables to exceed 70% of the volume of the conduit. So, if you are tight, then it ain't gonna fly.

Keep in mind also many of the Cat6 calbes are larger in diameter than Cat5 and Cat5e. But, probably no worse than gel filled (external) cat 5.

 

[hillbilly1]

Pulling it in the service conduit is a bad Idea, for one thing you will get interference with the AC line, and second the Cat V or VI will not be rated for the voltage. And the third, it will not go any easier there either, With four 90's your at the maximum number of bends, but not impossible. Tie a pull string onto the exsisting cables and pull them all out at the same time. Replace the cables with regular inside wire, the jacket on it is much smoother and smaller, pull everything back in at the same time using a 1/4" rope. You can get wire lube at Lowes or Home Depot in quart bottles. Lube the wire at the start, then every 10 or so feet as your pulling it in. You will need at least two people for this, one feeding (the smart end) the wire into the conduit, and one pulling (the dumb end). Feeding the wire properly makes the world of difference, especially when the conduit is too small.

 

[jhelrey]

I do a bunch of low voltage home automation stuff.... I had to run 250 feet of fiber optic from the house to the pole barn.

When we installed it, we used 1 inch sprinkler system pipe so no hard bends, etc. When we pulled the wire, we used KY and water. Filled it up until the water came out of the other end. Now remember, this was outside and then we used special plates to bring it inside like they do for your phone, power, etc. Pulled the wires through with a snake. Then we hooked up an high powered air compressor we use for sprinkler systems, created a seal and blasted away. Got rid of all the water.

Fiberoptic wire is very touchy so this should tell you how smoothly it went.

 

[scelectrician]

What is the radius of the 90 degree bends? That is the main factor there.

BTW, I laughed at the pulling with the Jeep's winch, though that has been done a lot with power cables. The problem will be that it is highly likely you'll break the wire in the conduit now before it pulls out. Then again, I don't see any easy solution either. Maybe just do it and pray for the best? Also I'd see if I could find a liquid lubricant that I could force into the conduit to help, perhaps pulling the lubricant through with air pressure? The friction between the plastic jacket of the cable and the plastic conduit will be high.

I've never laughed so hard when I read this. The radius is 90 degree..........What you wanted to know is if he had a sweeping 90 or not, or the diameter of the pipe, also whenever running pvc pipe always use ridgid 90's which are metal 90's and this way when you pull the wire in with a rope it doesn't cut into the 90's and it will very easy, you may be able to get a string in the pipe but do NOT use a metal fishtape use a fiber glass, this is becuase the wires are crossed up in the pipe and could get damaged. What needs to be done is pull out the exsiting wires with a string tied to one end. pull in a rope attach the wires and make sure you make the "head" where the wires attach as small as possible. also tape up very well. do NOT just tape the wires togetter they will not make it through the pipe, you also do need wire lube, which can be purchased from lowes or any electrical supply. have a friend "feed" the wire while you pull, or vise versa. always remember this set a box i.e pull point when you are over 360 degrees or over 100 ft of pipe, this is NEC code.

 

[ket-tek]

As mentioned previously the proper selection of wireless gear would be more than enough. I'd probally do a WAP in the attic off the existing router and an outdoor directional antenna to a bridge in the barn.

Your Cat5/Cat6 has 4 pairs, but only two are used for the ethernet connection. You can rig up a second ethernet port or use the remaining two pairs for two phone lines.

Assuming the use of only 10/100baseT speeds, gigabit 1000baseT requires all 4 pairs for operation largely due to the full duplex operation of gigabit among other factors.

Tho it sounds as if it will only be for internet use, and not so much for internal LAN file transferring so unless he has upgraded higher speed internet service where a 100baseT connection would benefit then 10baseT would typically be fine. As most low cost routers only have 10baseT for the internet input WAN port anyway.

 

[walrus]

or over 100 ft of pipe, this is NEC code.

What code section is this?

 

[SiGmA_X]

I've never laughed so hard when I read this. The radius is 90 degree..........What you wanted to know is if he had a sweeping 90 or not, or the diameter of the pipe, also whenever running pvc pipe always use ridgid 90's which are metal 90's and this way when you pull the wire in with a rope it doesn't cut into the 90's and it will very easy, you may be able to get a string in the pipe but do NOT use a metal fishtape use a fiber glass, this is becuase the wires are crossed up in the pipe and could get damaged. What needs to be done is pull out the exsiting wires with a string tied to one end. pull in a rope attach the wires and make sure you make the "head" where the wires attach as small as possible. also tape up very well. do NOT just tape the wires togetter they will not make it through the pipe, you also do need wire lube, which can be purchased from lowes or any electrical supply. have a friend "feed" the wire while you pull, or vise versa. always remember this set a box i.e pull point when you are over 360 degrees or over 100 ft of pipe, this is NEC code.

Your post confuses me a bit. I'm not qualified to discuss wire pulling, or NEC code (but if you do talk code, quote the code sections!), but you are mistaking what a radius is. This awesomely simple picture from Wikipedia should explain to you why a 90* radius isn't 90*, but rather the distance from the center of the circle to the perimeter. A "sweeping 90*" as you put it would have a larger radius. Its far more useful for one to mention the radius vs "sweeping" or "tight" as it could vary from mfg to mfg.

Disclaimer: I have no idea if there are different radius conduits, I've never looked at them before. All I know is the radius isn't 90*, and that fact matters for comprehensive conversation.

 

[Aceman]

The radius is 90 degree.

No.

remember this set a box i.e pull point when you are over 360 degrees or over 100 ft of pipe, this is NEC code.

No.

You're pretty cocky for a guy getting schooled by the DIY'ers on this forum. So, are you really an electrician?

Spend some time on this site:
http://forums.mikeholt.com

 

[comedyman809]

i doubt using metal(EMT) conduit underground is a good idea.

the only reason we do use pvc is because of the weathering.

 

[foolishpride]

No.



No.

You're pretty cocky for a guy getting schooled by the DIY'ers on this forum. So, are you really an electrician?

Spend some time on this site:
http://forums.mikeholt.com

He has to be a non-union electrician. We IBEW members know better than this.

 

[mickeyb]

electrical wiring is not a hobby call a electrican

 

[Aceman]

He has to be a non-union electrician. We IBEW members know better than this.

I'm non-union.....

 

[MrMark]

an arc (the 90 degrees here) can have any radius you want. Just like a circle can have any radius you like.

Electrical conduit comes in 24" bends, 36" bends, etc, for a 90 degree arc. That is the radius of the circle that would define the arc.

an engineer would write R"X" for an arc on a drawing.

 

[MFortie]

DON'T pull your low voltage cable through the electrical feeder conduit! There's a reason for the NEC -- it's called Life/Safety! The NFPA doesn't just make this stuff up!

Someone gets hurt or dies as a result of violating the NEC (and/or the Authority Having Jurisdiction) and some lawyer is going to have field day with you!

 

[mraredneck]

(A $200 router will solve your issue. Easy to go over 70'. Good luck.)

Sounds quick and easy Q;^) 360º is the rule of thumb in field. I would get some dish soap mixed with water in a gal jug, dump it in the non pulling end. This will cover your wire and travel with it on the pull out. (Make sure you attach a string to the end) Pull wire out your pulling string in. The problem with using masons string is its nylon and will cut into the PVC conduit, but should be ok for the distance you are talking abut.
Use the string to pull your ¼” rope in. This will work fine. Dish soap is fine to pull out, but I would get some wire lube to reinstall with your new CAT 5. I would also pull a spare CAT 5 better safe then sorry. When mixing your soap more is better (lotsa soap.)
I like poli water “J” but any wire lube will work for your reinstall. This should pull out by hand>>> and back in by hand 1 puller 1 feeder as mentioned in the earlier post. You may have to start over pull the wire back to were it started (lube) then back out. You will be amazed how easy it will pull when that soap gets in there.

 

[mraredneck]

It was my understanding this was a dedicated phone conduit??? Yea no data and power in same pipe!