How "Smart" are Smart meters?

[Evan(CA)]

So here is the deal, SWIM is a licensed C-10 contractor with an elderly neighbor who has a ~60 year old 100 amp Zinsco meter main WITH a smart meter. In my area the water bond must be at the point where the water enters the dwelling which in her situation means opening up ~75' of T&G vaulted ceiling because there is zero attic or crawl space anywhere to get where the city water enters on the opposite side of the house.

She is on SS with no family and SWIM has been keeping her Zinsco panel going for her by moving and replacing breakers for years now but last week was the last straw. The Main 100a breaker burned up 1 phase of it's self and the bus bar. SWIM has her temporarily fed with a 60amp breaker but that's as big as he had saved from previous Zinsco replacements since the new replacements are $$$

Her panel should have been replaced years ago but she flat out does not have the money even if SWIM did the electrical labor free. If SWIM were to pull her smart meter for 6 hours or so would the power company know and send someone out. What about jury rigging it so has power on the line side? It would still be disconnected for some time. SWIM has meter lock tags from SCE.

SWIM wants to help the woman but is afraid this might turn into a no good deed goes unpunished situation despite the fact that it will be a safer system. SWIM will just use the existing water bond at it's current location, then add a ground rod and bond the cold/hot/gas.

Exterior pipe work or interior wire mold are looking like SWIM's only options but that's just more cost and time not to mention the aesthetics.

Thoughts?

 

[Norcal]

Swim ?????????

 

[bczygan]

They will know and send a repair crew out.

Call and notify them first. Or at least call and find out their policy and procedure.

Bill

 

[bczygan]

Swim ?????????

"Someone Who Isn't Me"

Bill

 

[manwithtools]

"Someone Who Isn't Me"

Bill

Could also be "Son With Impatient Mother" or "Sociopath Wife In Menopause"

 

[Evan(CA)]

They will know and send a repair crew out.

Call and notify them first. Or at least call and find out their policy and procedure.

Bill

I know their procedure. They require a MSR(meter socket removal)# and once they pull the meter they take it and require the city inspector to call and release it which requires a permit obviously.

 

[manwithtools]

SWIM wants to help the woman but is afraid this might turn into a no good deed goes unpunished situation despite the fact that it will be a safer system.

Thoughts?

I'm afraid this part of your post is likely correct. It would seem a shame to destroy the T&G ceiling as well. Good for SWIY for wanting to help an elder on a fixed income, not sure I've got any good suggestions for you, er I mean SWIY.

 

[mcbane]

You are only required to bond to the water service if the water service is metallic. Replace the pipe from the water meter with PEX or PVC and you are good.

 

[Bert_]

You know what the right answer is. Get the permit number and inspection. Guessing you can't do that so hire a professional.

How do you plan to replace the meter seal? That will be an issue even if the utility doesn't send someone out.

 

[LXCam]

"Sociopath Wife In Menopause"

Oh you mean my wife


First off you'll have to have Edison (assumed) come remove the meter ring and pull the meter. Sparky could call them and explain he needs to repair the buss and try to get away with it. But unless he's gets lucky it's unlikely. There's just nothing that can be done on the cheap with the exception of finding a interior that's in good working order and replacing it part for part.

 

[manwithtools]

You are only required to bond to the water service if the water service is metallic. Replace the pipe from the water meter with PEX or PVC and you are good.

I like the way you think

 

[LXCam]

Evan have your sparky contact Western Enterprise in riverside. If anyone is going to have a used interior it's gonna be them.

 

[bczygan]

Here's what my local provider (DTE) asks:

https://www.madison-heights.org/DocumentCenter/View/154/DTE-Meter-Notice-PDF

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

Weed country answer; go out to the corner, and put a few rounds through the transformer. Swap out your panel while the mains are down.

 

[manwithtools]

Why is it some of you rebellious CA guys have such ingenious ideas? Seems to me some have been through this already......

Oh, and BTW, I like how you think.....

 

[LXCam]

Why is it some of you rebellious CA guys have such ingenious ideas? Seems to me some have been through this already......

Oh, and BTW, I like how you think.....

30yrs of dealing with da man, now I is da man and nothing gets past my watch. Muhahahaha

 

[FordTruckWench]

It is normal for power to drop out momentarily and then return: A branch falls on a high voltage line, shorts it out, branch catches fire, POCO circuit breaker trips, branch burns through and falls down, POCO circuit breaker auto resets, and everyone in the neighborhood sighs in relief that the power came right back on.

Seems like you could remove the meter, and quickly plug it into an alternate source of power.

You could even wait for a stormy day...

...

Instead of fully replacing the Zinsco, how about converting it to just meter base duty? Add a meter-less main panel right next to, above, or below the Zinsco. Move all loads to the new panel. Then feed the new panel with longer wires from the load side of the meter socket. Finish up by sealing off the Zinsco's breaker punchouts.

 

[tdkkart]

If said person was a good and well known "contractor" he would have a bunch of buddy contractors that could show up at the house and do a charity job for said little old lady and everyone would be happy. A bunch of local builders got together, donated materials and labor to build a new building for the local animal shelter over a week or so. The building would have been a couple hundred thousand had they had pay for it.

 

[walta]

The last thing you want to do is put the old lady in a worse spot.

When you pull the meter you must cut tamper indicator. Some hard *** from the utility finds it cut and assumes the meter has bypassed the meter and she gets charged theft and a big bill.

Check with the local IBEW some have programs for this kind of situations.


Walta

 

[Evan(CA)]

The last thing you want to do is put the old lady in a worse spot.

When you pull the meter you must cut tamper indicator. Some hard *** from the utility finds it cut and assumes the meter has bypassed the meter and she gets charged theft and a big bill.

Check with the local IBEW some have programs for this kind of situations.


Walta

SWIM has several meter tamper lines from an Edison guy who did the meter pull on another job. SWIM mainly wants to know what happens when the "smart" meter loses power as far as the PC noticing it and their reaction to it if they do. This is Southern California Edison. I know they have their hands full with the mudslide in Montecito and the fire they started so now might be a good time for SWIM to do it.

 

[JackAndy]

SWIM has meter lock tags from SCE.

It depends on what kind of smart meter it is and what the utility best practices are. If its an RF meter like a cellnet or 900 mhz RF, they'll notice the outage because the meter will send out a last gasp message. If its a power line carrier meter, they won't notice the outage at all until its plugged back in at which time if they really wanted to, they could read the outage count and see exactly how long it was off for. If you have it out for more than a day, even if its a PLC meter, they're going to notice eventually.

If its an RF meter, you could put a faraday cage (aluminum foil) over it to prevent the last gasp message from going out. You would have about 1.4 seconds from the time its pulled until it sends the last gasp so you'd have that long to get it in the faraday cage.

Even if they get the outage alert, they might just call before actually rolling a truck.

I wouldn't suggest it because this is dangerous. You should be wearing gloves when you pull the meter and have a fire retardant shirt, cotton at worst. You can get hot slag from the meter stabs because it can arc when you pull the meter or put it back in.

If this is a Landis + Gyr Focus meter, they have tamper sensors. Its a mercury tilt switch. So it can tell the difference between an outage and tampering. This is meant to catch power stealing or meter swapping though.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It depends on what kind of smart meter it is and what the utility best practices are. If its an RF meter like a cellnet or 900 mhz RF, they'll notice the outage because the meter will send out a last gasp message. If its a power line carrier meter, they won't notice the outage at all until its plugged back in at which time if they really wanted to, they could read the outage count and see exactly how long it was off for. If you have it out for more than a day, even if its a PLC meter, they're going to notice eventually.

If its an RF meter, you could put a faraday cage (aluminum foil) over it to prevent the last gasp message from going out. You would have about 1.4 seconds from the time its pulled until it sends the last gasp so you'd have that long to get it in the faraday cage.

Even if they get the outage alert, they might just call before actually rolling a truck.

I wouldn't suggest it because this is dangerous. You should be wearing gloves when you pull the meter and have a fire retardant shirt, cotton at worst. You can get hot slag from the meter stabs because it can arc when you pull the meter or put it back in.

If this is a Landis + Gyr Focus meter, they have tamper sensors. Its a mercury tilt switch. So it can tell the difference between an outage and tampering. This is meant to catch power stealing or meter swapping though.

^^^ This

Ive pulled my share of meters(legally) and Pacific Gasp and Extortion's meters(the landis and GYR models) DO have tamper sensors.

The other local PoCo here in town has Focus AXR-SD smart meters which also have tamper sensors which transmit power losses.

Doubt the OP would be able to disconnect the meter quick enough and put it in a fraday cage.

 

[JackAndy]

If you just need power disconnected for a bit can you call the utility and schedule tree trimming? I did this last week and they turned my power off at the pole for a couple hours until I was done.

 

[bczygan]

If you just need power disconnected for a bit can you call the utility and schedule tree trimming? I did this last week and they turned my power off at the pole for a couple hours until I was done.

Even if you don't have trees?

Bill

 

[Paperman]

Cant pull the fuse on the service and see what happens? Pull it open and see how/what kind of response you get. When they show up tell them you don't know what the problem is, if they seem cool give them the rundown of what you want to do and see of they will stand by for an hour and reseal when your done. Guys on the ground are normally cool as long as they know ahead of time what you are doing.

 

[7635tools]

It’s been my experience that you have about 1 1/2 to 2 min once it’s pulled. As soon as you pull the meter it stops responding. The power company will try to ping it and if doesn’t respond within the time frame then a trouble call goes in. I have a temp meter socket rigged up with so cord and alligator clips. Pull the meter, clip onto line side of meter socket and install meter in temp socket. Done. I’ve done this several times and never had a trouble man come out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Norcal]

Cant pull the fuse on the service and see what happens? Pull it open and see how/what kind of response you get. When they show up tell them you don't know what the problem is, if they seem cool give them the rundown of what you want to do and see of they will stand by for an hour and reseal when your done. Guys on the ground are normally cool as long as they know ahead of time what you are doing.

The overcurrent protection is usually after the meter so it would not affect it and there is none before the meter.

 

[nsula_country]

The overcurrent protection is usually after the meter so it would not affect it and there is none before the meter.

Transformer is fused... Before meter... But you need a hot stick to drop it.

CT

 

[nsula_country]

SWIM? What the hell is SWIM?

CT

 

[RoyBell]

Making it hard to do jobs. We did a panel change the other day and just pulled the meter for about 6 hours. No one showed up and I am sure it was a smart meter since they are everywhere now.

If they do send a tech, what will the tech actually say/do?

I like the spare/temp meter idea though.

 

[exranger06]

SWIM? What the hell is SWIM?

CT

That question was answered in post #4...

 

[nsula_country]

I read this from begining. Did not know if post #4 is actually what the OP was refering to or if SWIM was some sort of Californian governmental agency... Learn new acronym everyday...

So OP was asking the question for SWIM whom is a contractor?

What the hell is a C-10 Contractor? Is he an electrical contractor? I've heard of C-class Union Construction Electricians...

Edit... I Googled C-10... It's a California thing.

CT

 

[manwithtools]

SMH, this is a thread full of acronyms. In case it's not obvious, the OP is trying to help someone without jeopardizing his position as a licensed electrician. His cause is noble and I wish there was a way for him to execute without exposing his position.... actually it kind of ***** how one can get punished for doing the right thing in situations like this.

 

[DC73]

Consider finding a way to speak directly with one of the PoCo's service men outside of official channels. You might find someone with a kind heart who would help you out.


DC

 

[brewchief]

I think I would work it from the other end and talk to the head electrical inspector, explain what's going without going into exact details/location and see if they would give an exception to the bond at the water line entrance, if not I would find a way to get a wire to it even if it was just stapled along the bottom of the siding and went away later. We deal with a mechanical inspector who understands that sometimes you can't make it perfect but you have made it much better then before, getting rid of a zinsco panel that's eating itself would probably get a little slack.

I know that Eaton/cutler hammer makes some retrofit panels for replacing some old obsolete panels and not changing the enclosure, would one of those work here?

 

[Bert_]

Transformer is fused... Before meter... But you need a hot stick to drop it.

CT

I have a hot stick that hasn't been tested in ~20 years. Guy who retired a few years ago used it once or twice but I'd be too scared and I don't do work for anybody with customer owned primary anymore.

Making it hard to do jobs. We did a panel change the other day and just pulled the meter for about 6 hours. No one showed up and I am sure it was a smart meter since they are everywhere now.

If they do send a tech, what will the tech actually say/do?

I like the spare/temp meter idea though.

Depends on the utility it seems. One here is **** about nobody touching the meter or stuff on the line side, concerned about liability I guess.

Several other utilities could care less. They say do whatever you need to do just let us know so we can throw a new tag on it sometime. They used to give some electricians meter tags to carry in the truck. I've changed entire services without the utility company coming out, new riser, meter box and disconnect.


Bottom line is if you are not familiar with the utility and they are not familiar with you then just go by the book.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Transformer is fused... Before meter... But you need a hot stick to drop it.

CT

Would need an awfully long hot stick and then if the transformer serves other houses, you just killed their power too.

And of course, if someone spots, Im sure they'd call the police.

This isnt the right away to go about work one wants to keep under the radar...

 

[Norcal]

I have only pulled 1 Smart Meter to swap out a panel that the idiots who installed it failed to use a gasket on the rain tight hub leading to water damaging the AL bus, spent a lot of time cursing the installer(s) but PG&E never came around, popped the meter back in & reused the same seals. The local PG&E service center is only a few miles away from the job, & drove right by it to & from the job.

 

[Jim greengo]

We pull meters around here all the time while working on or upgrading service panels,not that big of a deal.
I dont see the power company sending somebody out just for that,around here they still have to drive around to read smart meters from their cars for billing every month.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

We pull meters around here all the time while working on or upgrading service panels,not that big of a deal.
I dont see the power company sending somebody out just for that,around here they still have to drive around to read smart meters from their cars for billing every month.

Thats because you dont have a smart meter mesh network like the other PoCos mentioned on here since your PoCo has to drive around to read the meters.

This means the meter has no network to send power outage info to.

my PoCo can read meters remotely from the central office. no driving around necessary