How to add a sub box for welder plug when main box full?

[Displaced Hokie]

I could use some help. I'm getting ready to add a 50A/220 plug in my garage for my welder. Unfortunately, my panel is full - no breaker slots left. This erks me, as the house is only 2yrs old has a 200A feed and the box is large. They just didn't leave me any room to grow! I want to add a sub box to house the welder breaker...but I don't see where I can branch off to feed the new sub box...

Whole box (sorry sideways)

Close up:

I'm competent at wiring, and have done several projects before. This would be my first 220v, but I've got a handle on it. I've also got some good reference books on how it needs to be. I'm just not terribly familiar with the "branching off" part.

Thanks!
Pat

 

[Aceman]

Since that Romex and panel both look new this must be a new home? I can't believe they filled the panel like that right from the get go, even using twin breakers to make enough spaces! They should of used a 40 space minimum instead of overfilling that 30.

You can either add more twin breakers to make space or you can remove one circuit say the dryer, stove, water heater, basically anything using a 2 pole breaker and use that space to feed the sub. Then you'll have to feed that circuit you removed in your main panel from a breaker in the sub.

 

[Fast Orange]

That looks to be a relatively new ITE/Siemens panel,probably a G3042b1200-if so you can buy twin breakers that will give you an empty pole space for every one you use.On the right side of your panel your electrician has already used two twins in the6th and 7th pole spaces from the bottom.Combine 4 single pole breaker loads onto 2 twin breakers and you will have two open pole spaces for your 2 pole breaker for the welding circuit.Better yet,to avoid the same problem in the future,use the two open pole spaces to feed a 100A sub panel and run your welder circuit out of that

 

[Torque1st]

Good idea^^^ Run a 100A sub panel of the existing panel. Remember a sub panel must have an isolated neutral.

 

[mrb]

That looks like a panel using 1in Q series breakers, so my suggestion is based on that. On the bottom right, remove the 30a 2P and 50a 2P breakers. Replace them with a 50-30-30-50 quad where both pairs are common trip. I believe the P/N you need is Q25030CT2 verify this before buying a breaker. Install this where the 50 was and connect the circuits you removed to the new breaker. Reinstall the leftover 2P 50a at the bottom and use that to supply your welder.

Alternately (and this may be cheaper) is you could combine some 120v circuits into tandem breakers to free up a pair of slots. Just make sure you dont screw up your load balancing, or worse put both hots from a MWBC on the same phase.

If you have trouble finding the Q25030CT2, you could do what I suggested over on the left side with a Q24030CT2 but then you would need to also buy a 50a 2P breaker.

Any of those three will free up a pair of slots for a 2P breaker for your welder.

If youre only installing a welder, I dont see much sense in installing a subpanel....

 

[Torque1st]

With a stuffed panel like Hokie has a sub panel is good for future expansion. We always seem to be adding electrical appliances or tools.

 

[Displaced Hokie]

Thanks guys, much appreciated.

MRB, your option sounds like the easiest and lowest cost at this point. At least it looks like I have options.

ACEMAN, I agree. For a new house it's unbelieveable they crammed all this in. House is 2yrs old, but I'm the second owner. If I had been around when it was built I would have had this done differently.

At least in this house the box is in the garage. In my past house (which was only 5yrs old) the box was inside the house in a bedroom - on the opposite end of the house from the garage. I was not looking forward to trying to wire the welder there.

Pat

 

[Stick Figure]

i won't even pretend to know the best route to take since i am by no means an electrician. What i will suggest is do the sub panel now unless money is a big factor. If you are out of room with no changes so far, then what happens when the new air compressor comes home?

 

[Displaced Hokie]

Good point on the compressor...

 

[79firebird]

Ok heres my take change some of the brakers out. if you look on the right side a fue brakers up theres some smaller 15 amp ones then in the rest of the box. switch some to the smaller ones and you should have room to put anouther braker in and run a sub panle off that way saves haveing to pull a wire or 2 out of the box to put into the sub one. and no haveing to dubble tap brakers

 

[Fuzz]

A note about the panel being filled.

When I was wiring houses in subdivisions for a large developer, the "electrical package" usually specified the smallest code approved service panel for the application. The upgrade to a larger panel had such a ridiculous up-charge (by the builder not the electrical contractor) that the home owner usually declined. With the modern NEC rules, the minimum sized panel gets filled quick by all of the dedicated circuits for bathrooms, HVAC, appliances, etc. Many times, I had to do some load calculations to see what circuits I could double up on one breaker safely to finish the job. Tandem breakers are not allowed in new construction applications around here.

What you find in a lot of home construction, not including complete custom jobs, is the code minimum. The code does not require provisions for future expansion. It is frustrating, for the owner and sometimes the installer....but money dictates everything.

 

[tfi racing]

You are a long,long way from needing a sub panel unless you need it a distance from that panel.By swapping to tandem breakers,you could have up to about 24 more circuits if necessary.

 

[Aceman]

You are a long,long way from needing a sub panel unless you need it a distance from that panel.By swapping to tandem breakers,you could have up to about 24 more circuits if necessary.

No way....

That looks like the typical Siemens 30 space, 40 circuit panel. He's at 32 circuits now, so how do propose he gets another 24 in there legally?

 

[tfi racing]

No way....

That looks like the typical Siemens 30 space, 40 circuit panel. He's at 32 circuits now, so how do propose he gets another 24 in there legally?

I'll look into this a bit more,but those panels up here are marketed as 30 space/60 circuits using the tandem/wafer breakers.I guess I was wrong,that leaves a potential of 28 more circuits! As usual, your local rules may differ,please comply with them over anything you may read here...

 

[nate379]

You running electric heat in your house? Seems like alot of 240 runs.

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

One question for the electrical gurus out there about the box pictured above. Is it normal practice now to run romex with the white and black to the hots and then the bare wire as ground? There are several circuits at the bottom of the box that are done that way. I know I was taught a long time ago on a 240 circuit to have red, black and bare ground to help identify a 240 branch circuit. I never was much more than a helper during a couple of summers a LONG time ago but if this is correct or standard practice, I can see being able to take a LOT of shortcuts....

That same guy also taught me to check it to see if it was hot OR make sure my life policy was paid up to date...

 

[Charles (in GA)]

One question for the electrical gurus out there about the box pictured above. Is it normal practice now to run romex with the white and black to the hots and then the bare wire as ground? There are several circuits at the bottom of the box that are done that way.

Very observant. Indeed there are four double pole (240v) breakers with a black on one side and a white on the other. They are not taped nor marked in any way, clear violation of code, should have been caught by the building inspector, as you say the house is only about two years old.

I would take a sharpie or similar marker and spend a few minutes coloring the last three inches or so of each of those white wires.

Charles

 

[Displaced Hokie]

Thanks for the input guys. I wondered about the white 240's as well. I'll mark them. The house has been inspected twice as we are the second owners (first folks didn't stay long). Weird that made it through twice.

 

[Torque1st]

In the box where the white wire is connected to the breaker it is pretty obvious it is a hot wire. Out in the wiring elsewhere in the house it is not obvious what a wire is used for hence they need to be identified.