How to attatch a ledger board.

[2CRUZ]

Hey Fellas
I need some carpenter advice. I want to build a roof over my deck using that poloy carb corrugated sheets. My problem is highth. I need to come off the facia on the house with a ledger board to put the joyce hangers for the deck roof. I know the facia won't hold that much weight so I need to attatch the ledger board to the rafter tails on the house. Can someone tell me how to go about doing this? Thanks for any help guys.

Mike

 

[where2]

Go to the hardware store, pickup some 1/4" galvanized angle steel. Drop your soffit, mount segments of the angle steel to the trusses with bolts and fender washers. Do this at least every three feet. Now you have something sturdy behind the fascia. Bolt the ledger board to the fascia through the new angle steel and use a drip edge flashing above the ledger, or put a serious bevel on the top of the ledger so that the ledger does not collect water and rot, or hold water to your fascia and rot out the ends of your trusses. Caulk the top of the joint where the ledger and the fascia meet (leave the bottom open, in case water does get in). You want to keep water out of that crack, even if you install flashing above it. Caulk the bolts going through the ledger and fascia to keep water from running back those and rotting things out. I'd try to use carriage bolts (3/8" or larger diameter), and make square holes in my angle steel to hold the carriage heads.

I can't tell you how many episodes of "This Old House" I have watched where a house had some form of ledger mounted against a sill or a fascia without caulking to keep the moisture out of the seam, and without proper flashing. You MUST keep the water moving away from the wood... Paint is not enough...

 

[fury9]

Is the new pitch of the roof going to match the old pitch of the old roof?This is what I would do, cut your rafter tails back 1 1/2" back from the outside of your top plate, wait we need more info, what size rafters are on the existing house? What size ledger board are you wanting to use?Measuring straight up from the outside of top plate how tall is the rafter at this point, this is also called the "stand".Level a line straight up from the outside of your top plate and measure the height of your rafter at this point. Sorry if this is a little confusing. A pic would help.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Is the new pitch of the roof going to match the old pitch of the old roof?This is what I would do, cut your rafter tails back 1 1/2" back from the outside of your top plate, wait we need more info, what size rafters are on the existing house? What size ledger board are you wanting to use?Measuring straight up from the outside of top plate how is the rafter at this point, this is also called the "stand".Level a line straight up from the outside of your top plate and measure the height of your rafter at this point. Sorry if this is a little confusing. A pic would help.

I think what Fury is talking about is basically a reverse birds mouth. Please correct me if I'm wrong on what you're meaning.

This is what I would do and you won't need a ledger board. You will need to have some type of flashing to get the rain water to run from the shingles to the poly corrugated roof panels. They may be taller than the existing roof you currently have.

 

[Neighbor]

What you're asking about doing is this.

short answer is don't.
http://activerain.com/blogsview/967549/moose-drool-

I'd suggest running the roof rafters over house walls sisterd to the house rafters.

 

[grumpygator]

Not to be picky but,
Start with a picture
Add a location {Your state will do }
How far is the span ?
That will make it easy to give you the right answer.
********Just Saying*************Gator************

 

[2CRUZ]

Fellas thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions. I have tried to post picture on here but they just won't post for some reason.
Where2 That is kind of the way I was thinking about doing it, I guess I just needed the confidence to try it. NEIGHBOR that is the way I want to add the roof over my deck but the roof I want to put up won't be near that heavy. Mine will be coverd with those fiberglass panels just for shade in the summer. I live in Southern Illinois and in the last 10 years we haven't had hardly any snow at all so we are due for a ruff winter. The roof will be 16'x20'. I'm going to use 2x6 and 4x4 posts, three in the front. I think it will be strong enough. I just needed to be sure I could attatch it to the facia and rafter tails.
Thanks guys for the advice.

Mike

 

[kwb]

Put the ledger board onto the house. It will require a Lag into framing of house otherwise your connection can pull out from house. Do not attach directly to end of rafter/truss tails. You can sister next to them and land in the joist hanger on ledger board

 

[bczygan]

You can connect there, but based on the span of the roof, your location, and the size of the members needed, it is not the best solution.

You cannot discount the snow loads for your area, just based on your observations of the last few years.

Your first task is to see what building restrictions you have based on your zoning. A deck may be allowed, but not a roofed structure. You may need permits. What are the support requirements of the roofing material? What is the spacing of the joists and posts? Why don't you make it self supporting with posts at the existing roof line? What will be the slope of the new roof? Lots of questions.

 

[kwb]

Look around - how many places do you see framing members **** spliced without a vertical load bearing wall below the splice. Trusses do not count - those members are loaded differently than normal framing members.

Tie it into the side of the house.

 

[2CRUZ]

Look around - how many places do you see framing members **** spliced without a vertical load bearing wall below the splice. Trusses do not count - those members are loaded differently than normal framing members.

Tie it into the side of the house.

I wanted to but I need more highth and I don't want to come off the roof. I talked to a charpenter friend the other day he said it would be ok to use lag screws and go right thru the facia and into the rafter ends. He says he has done it many times before. He is coming over tonight and I'm going to double check with him to make sure we are on the same page on this.

 

[cburnscrx]

Put the ledger board onto the house. It will require a Lag into framing of house otherwise your connection can pull out from house. Do not attach directly to end of rafter/truss tails. You can sister next to them and land in the joist hanger on ledger board

I wanted to but I need more highth and I don't want to come off the roof. I talked to a charpenter friend the other day he said it would be ok to use lag screws and go right thru the facia and into the rafter ends. He says he has done it many times before. He is coming over tonight and I'm going to double check with him to make sure we are on the same page on this.

Gotta agree with KWB...this is a bad idea. Do not attach directly to the end of rafter/truss tails. You're just asking for long term trouble.

 

[CTyankee]

I wanted to but I need more highth and I don't want to come off the roof. I talked to a charpenter friend the other day he said it would be ok to use lag screws and go right thru the facia and into the rafter ends. He says he has done it many times before. He is coming over tonight and I'm going to double check with him to make sure we are on the same page on this.

Gotta agree with KWB...this is a bad idea. Do not attach directly to the end of rafter/truss tails. You're just asking for long term trouble.

X 3..I've seen lots of things done many times before too..doesn't necessarily make it right.

 

[fury9]

Put the ledger board onto the house. It will require a Lag into framing of house otherwise your connection can pull out from house. Do not attach directly to end of rafter/truss tails. You can sister next to them and land in the joist hanger on ledger board

You can't lag if you're not going into the box! Obviously this is a second story deck! So the roof will be coming off the top plate of the second story Go ahead and cram in 5/8" lags into your 2x material and see how that works out for ya

 

[fury9]

To the OP, are you going to use ceiling joists?

 

[nutjob]

This might be what you are looking for:

Found here:

http://www.skylifthardware.com/

Kevin

 

[Big Bad Dad]

I saw one built like this collapse once. DO NOT attach to rafter tails or fascia!! Especially in snow country. It ain't going to pass building inspection if you do it legally anyway.

 

[fury9]

This might be what you are looking for:

Found here:

http://www.skylifthardware.com/

Kevin

looks like they have tripled the header up and stuccoed right over it, wrong

 

[fury9]

HA! they even illustrate the brackets bearing in between two 2'4 wall studs

 

[IHI]

I briefly looked through some old job pictures trying to find the framing details on this paticular job we did. Customer had a large deck on the south side of the house and never was able to use it due to extreme sun/heat during the summer and wanted a shadey spot. Unfortunately budget wise they could'nt swing my inital proposal of doing a roof style tied into existing to match/blend into the house to make it look seamless, after a budget was determined this was what we came up with...they got their shade, but obviously I was'nt happy about overall look since it looks added on and i find that disgusting, I strive for integrated.

Anyhow, you dont have a choice but to consider snow load...not just because your inspectors will make you do it or make you tear it down if you under build it, but mainly for yourself and family preservation...all it takes is one good snow season and down she comes. you CANNOT tie into rafter tails, lets put that out there right now. you have no choice but to tie directly into the home framing itself so there is strength involved, tails are not upto task to support one side of a rood, esspecially one the width your describing, that is suicide and a huge waste of time/money/effort as it wont pass code and be dangerious.

the build below was a 16'x46' deal. Since we could'nt tie into existing roof, but still needed pitch to allow rain/snow to fall off, we measured down below the existing soffit to allow for roof deck thickness, ice guard, steel roof ribs and a cushion space of an inch. We lagged the ledger board into the side of the house with 1/2"x6" lags 16" o.c. into studs 2 in each stud all the way across 46'. Since we're in the midwest we have to follow span guides BASED ON snow loads. to keep what headroom we could at the end of the deck going to back yard the most we could use were 2x8 rafters, and to span that far with the snow load framing of the 2x8's was done 12" o.c. to meet IIRC and local code. Roof was decked with 1/2" OSB, we then covered the entire roof with ice guard and laid down raised rib steel panels. They did'nt want to use a membrane and pitch is too low for shingles, so the color we ordered matched their trim color, but you can barely even see any of the roof due to hte low slope.

We placed 6x6 posts roughly 10' oc (we were allowed to span 16') to allow for as much open viewing of backyard as possible giving the framing and spans we had to contend with, we nothced in 11 1/4" LVL's doubled up all the way across the front nailed off on a 5 nail pattern stacked 16"oc both sides. then just built up the exterior side with multiple 1x6's, 1x4's to given the large flat panel some depth and break it up a bit before putting the gutters on

I apologize if these pics are huge, i just took them off my photobucket and dont know if i resized them...but essentially it sounds much like what your planning to do, and I just dont want to see you halfazz it like you were initally thinking only to have the city come by and make you tear it all down and red tag your home until it's torn down due to the impending danger of wanting to tie into rafter tails.

 

[fury9]

Aren'y those nailing schedules a ***** sometimes and hey a crabby inspector will call you out on it, do it right once, Glad to see a fellow quality remodeler

 

[CTyankee]

This might be what you are looking for:

Found here:

http://www.skylifthardware.com/

Kevin

I have no words...

 

[IHI]

Found a few more but not the ones i'm trying to find


kind of see some of the framing detail against the house and whatnot


showing how beams are notched into 6x6's and such for maximum support, this is how we framed all decks as well, i've never been a fan of lagging or carriage bolting load bearing points to the side of a post, esspecially since the galvanized **** and SS stuff is untested for shear strength, I always tried to design double back up so if the bolts fail, the weight is still fully seated on the load bearing member and no reliant on a few bolts.

 

[IHI]

Aren'y those nailing schedules a ***** sometimes and hey a crabby inspector will call you out on it, do it right once, Glad to see a fellow quality remodeler

Paslode loves them for obvious reasons LOL. It got really fun when they changed allowable wall widths between spans to 2'6". Before it was whatever you wanted and then back in '04 they said it had to be a minimum of 2'6" UNLESS you wanted to get an engineered print on structural sheeting and nailing. We had to completely change garage layotu design based on just this one simple code change. Only ran into one job we had to do structural sheeting/nailing since the walls were only 2" wide on either side of a OH garage door. Had to do two layers of 1/2" wall sheeting on those walls outside and inside with nails every 6" LOL.

We run all paslode guns, so like i said...paslode loves nailing schedules

 

[fury9]

Found a few more but not the ones i'm trying to find


kind of see some of the framing detail against the house and whatnot


showing how beams are notched into 6x6's and such for maximum support, this is how we framed all decks as well, i've never been a fan of lagging or carriage bolting load bearing points to the side of a post, esspecially since the galvanized **** and SS stuff is untested for shear strength, I always tried to design double back up so if the bolts fail, the weight is still fully seated on the load bearing member and no reliant on a few bolts.

I personally wouldn't notch treated lumber, But like the hurricane clips on the rafter tails, with a six inch overhang just what code says right, I never have time to take pics of my work but I will on my break from now on

 

[fury9]

Wait you only notched the one side, you're good then

 

[fury9]

I run the paslode too, with the distinct boingpooft, used to run a hitachi lol, sometimes still do but the double fire that got my finger once makes me nervous

 

[IHI]

I bought a 5gal jug of some green stuff used to retreat areas of pressure treat wood after you've cut it. All I can say is this new fast growth trees they use for lumber now *****, loose grain and no ridgidity like the lumber we used a couple decades ago...same can be said for the lumber treating process, nowhere near the depth of pentration they used to have

Then as you know, couple fasr growth trees and all their instability with a pressure treat process, this new stuff *****. I've never in my life until the last ten or twelve yrs seen such horrible and drastic twisting, warping, shrinkage. I ended up yrs ago buying the prazi beam cutter attachment for my worm drive for doing treated deck stringers. Cant get two 2x12s the same width or thickness and I got tired of layout and cutting only to see when stacked they'd twist themselves into something and wouldn't match up to eachother. So we started stacking the stringer lumber, match everything on one side and screwed upto 6stringers together and cut all the stringers in one pass...this helped a lot

We got all the rapid fire bump triggers in simply because of speed when sheeting walls and roof decks...but yeah, they can screw ya lol.

 

[IHI]

Have been lucky all these years running all our necessary power tools and heavy equipment to only have 2 kinda minor problems. First one we were remodeling a bathroom and there was a build out we had to do around a stinkstack. Was nailing up base molding with my paslode 16ga cordless gun and got too close to the corner bead. Pulled the trigger and in a second I knew without looking what happened, damn brad mae a u turn and came out directly in the center of my thumb nail. Told my brother to grab the pry bar..."why" just grab the pry bar, "Oh sheeot dude, you alright?" yeah, just get the pry bar so I can get unstuck from the wall. walked outside with an 18" piece of oak base stuck to my thumb and cut the brad off as close to the nail and twisted the rest out. Little bit of toilet paper and electrical tape and we were back in business.

Other was the worst if you could call it the worst but not bad considering. Bought Milwaukee's baddest sawzall at the time and we were rehabbing a flood ravaged house. cutting the old front door out that was litered with dozens of huge old framing nails, screws, you name it, this jamb had it. running the trigger with my right hand and my left hand with a death grip on the front grip of the saw...blade grabbed a old framer nail and held fast, saw had nutz and continued to go back and forth...the problem was it ripped the saw out of my left hand which had a death grip, and my left hand instantly closed and got pinched beetween the saw blade and the blade guard...and you know that gap is'nt that large to begin with, and by the time i realized what happened and let off the trigger, my finger was running back and forth across the saw blade while the saw winded down to a stop. That was an oh **** moment looking at you finger wedged in that tiny gap and ripped open. Bled like s stuffed pig too, thankfully the house ws gutted gutted. Gave the guys their marching orders and drove to the ER.

Had an hour to killl in the room so took some pictures LOL




Grew tired of waiting after that hour, rumaged through their drawers and found a tounge depressor, gauze, and some tape. broke the depressor to make a splint, wrapped the gauze around it and used the tape to pull the finger meat back onto itself. Literally as I pulled the door open to walk out the doc was pushing it in and asked where i thought i was going. told him I realized there's folks there far worse off then i was but I have a jobsite to run so i patched myself up and am heading back..."well, i'm here now, lets see what ya got" and he stitched me back up. that throbbed like the dickens for the rest of the day LOL

 

[CTyankee]

All I can say is this new fast growth trees they use for lumber now *****, loose grain and no ridgidity like the lumber we used a couple decades ago...same can be said for the lumber treating process, nowhere near the depth of pentration they used to have

Then as you know, couple fasr growth trees and all their instability with a pressure treat process, this new stuff *****. I've never in my life until the last ten or twelve yrs seen such horrible and drastic twisting, warping, shrinkage.

I'm glad...no actually sad.. I'm not the only one who's dealing with this. All the material being milled today is borderline unusable..We've switched to engineered material wherever we can.

 

[IHI]

I'm glad...no actually sad.. I'm not the only one who's dealing with this. All the material being milled today is borderline unusable..We've switched to engineered material wherever we can.

It *****, esspecially when having to frame walls string straight like in kitchens to make cabinet installs an easier task later down the road. Lots of manhours go into sorting and sorting and sorting some more to find the pick of the litter. We used to have a mom and pop lumber yard that had preimium lumber, premimum priced too, but it was always great lumber. so when doing small jobs or jobs where super straight and plumb walls were needed I would swing by there and grab what i needed....then they eventually started getting **** lumber trying to compete with the homecenters and keep their doors open.

Yrs ago when I first took note of how badly this new treated lumber was twisting/warping/shrinking it changed how we did deck framing and decking board layout. There were some decks that were say 30-40' in length, after a few months of sun drying, some of the decking boards actually shrunk so bad they were completely pulled off the shared supporting joist and just hanging out in space...not good for the customer, or us since it meant going back and making it right through no fault of our own. so i redesigned the way we laid our framing so we had no sections larger than 10' wide as we found 10' long boards seemed to be about the cut off length for minimum overall shrinkage. not the prettiest, but for run of the mill low budget decks it was a way to ensure no call back, all the homeowners liked the different look/broken sections look so we just stuck with it because it worked. I preferred to use Correct Deck CX whenever possible, but as you know customer budget plays a larger factor and the correct deck is top teir and was rarely able to be used for the day to day jobs that kept us busiest between the clients that could afford the great stuff

This is an example of what i'm talking about


This is what we used for doing multiple stringers with PT wood...was the only way I found to make them come out matching due to the extreme nature of relief and weird **** the 2x12 stringers would do after cutting out the step sections. Just trying to "walk the boards" to get one side to half way match up was a feat unto itself most of the time, i dont hink there is such a thing as a straight PT 2x12 unfortunately

 

[e-tek]

You guys and your snow-load overkills - meh!

Things are often way overbuilt.

 

[IHI]

You guys and your snow-load overkills - meh!

Things are often way overbuilt.

Funniest part about that....no records of people being maimed or killed because something is built as strong or stronger than required. Span charts were designed to have an excess factor involved since roofs and flooring will often see spikes at max and over max of a given rating....its the cya factor....cover your azz.

For all the diyers around the world doing half baked projects doesn't have as much to lose as a professional...as sue happy as everybody is, if we screw up...our lives and famies lives are in jeopardy...I won't risk that for my unstudied engineering claim of weather its overkill for that application. Sad part all these half baked diy projects typically don't screw the guy that did the work..its the folks who buy the home later that have to pay the price to have more than anticipTed work performed to know their family and friends will be safe as will their big investment..the house and structures.

I've spent the better part of my life fixing mistakes guys with your mentality make and its not fun for us and is not cheap for the next guy you left in your wake.

 

[2CRUZ]

Ok Guys Getting back to my problem. Let me aske you guys this. I just don't have the highth to go under the over hang. It is like only about 7ft 6in. from the deck floor, and one top 2x4 rafter end sticking out of the trusses on the house. What if I took the fiscia and soffet off and sisterd a 2x6 to the side of that 2x4 and lag screwed to that 2x6? I know I'm grasping at straws here but I'm retired on a fixed income and I don't have a lot of money for an expensive build comming off the house roof and I wouldn't want that thing in the picture sticking up in the air. That is why I'm going to use those fiberglass panels. I guess my only alternative is to build it out of 2x4's and hope for the best. Thanks guys. I know I sound stupid. I'm not a carpenter. I'm just a do it your self home owner. I apprecieate all the advice.

Mike

 

[Stve M.]

bcgygan is right.
If you put a roof over your deck, the total covered deck area then becomes what the code calls "impervious". If your code has limits on the amount of impervious area (usually a percentage of the total lot area) then this will now count against you. Uncovered decks typically let water pass through and therefore are not usually considered impervious.
Also I agree not to tie directly to the fascia or end of rafter tails. You'll need to either come in below the soffit and anchor directly to a ledger board on the side of the house (which has the advantage of having that connection covered by the roof above and therefore wheater-resistant) OR you'll need to come in above the fascia and feather the entire thing into your existing roof. This second option is more work because it requires modification of your existing roof.
If you have the headroom I'd choose to come in below the soffit and anchor a ledger to the wall.
Good luck!

 

[Stve M.]

Considering you don't have much headroom how about removing the fascia and sistering a new rafter directly to each existing rafter at the new lower slope?
The ends of these new rafters will come in below your existing rafters at the house and can then be attached to a ledger board at the house (see the attached drawing). Be careful to allow as much drop as possible between the existing roof and the new roof for flashing.
At least with this method, if you mess up the flashing connection it will just get wet under the porch. Your existing roof will remain as existing so that should not be a new interior house leak no mater what you do ( BTW - In case anyone asks, I am ignoring the potential of water being able to actually run backwards, uphill under the roof deck and into the existing attic if it gets past your flashing. I'm counting on your new roof to roof flashing to stop most everything).
Also you may not want to use joist hangers on the new ledger board becuase they're just not pretty. In that case you might be able to get away with lowering the ledger board and notching the new rafters the old-fashioned way. Just check with your building inspector since they may require joist hangers. If so you'll just have to figure out a way to make it all pretty on the underside...but that's the easy part and if you're posting here you already know how to do that!

Good luck!

 

[2CRUZ]

You know what IHI. I didn't ask for your approval I asked for advice. If all you have to offer is a belligerent attaitude for my part you can keep it to your self.

 

[IHI]

You know what IHI. I didn't ask for your approval I asked for advice. If all you have to offer is a belligerent attaitude for my part you can keep it to your self.

I guess you will have to explain the part I gave you "belligerent attitude". You came here asking for advice, I'm giving you PROFESSIONAL advice that will keep your *** out of the ringer with the city, insurance companies, and possibly court if you continue to try and got the half assed route you keep trying to go and other's without a clue on here are pushing you to go.

Simply put, YOUR PLAN wont work and is UNSAFE, will NOT COMPLY with building code...what are you not understanding here? rafter tails are not, never were, and never will be able to support a structural load, you have no choice but to tie into the side of the home directly, or cut the existing tails off and set the new rafters on top of the top plate of the house....and then you still have to have the proper sized new rafters to span to support the snow load, which like it or not you are required to account for.

I'm not making anything up, not sugar coating it...it's code, it's law, call your city hall, ask for the building department and talk to them direct.

 

[IHI]

Considering you don't have much headroom how about removing the fascia and sistering a new rafter directly to each existing rafter at the new lower slope?
The ends of these new rafters will come in below your existing rafters at the house and can then be attached to a ledger board at the house (see the attached drawing). Be careful to allow as much drop as possible between the existing roof and the new roof for flashing.
At least with this method, if you mess up the flashing connection it will just get wet under the porch. Your existing roof will remain as existing so that should not be a new interior house leak no mater what you do ( BTW - In case anyone asks, I am ignoring the potential of water being able to actually run backwards, uphill under the roof deck and into the existing attic if it gets past your flashing. I'm counting on your new roof to roof flashing to stop most everything).
Also you may not want to use joist hangers on the new ledger board becuase they're just not pretty. In that case you might be able to get away with lowering the ledger board and notching the new rafters the old-fashioned way. Just check with your building inspector since they may require joist hangers. If so you'll just have to figure out a way to make it all pretty on the underside...but that's the easy part and if you're posting here you already know how to do that!

Good luck!

This idea is fine, but he still hase to use proper sized "rafters" to span over his deck to account for snowload...the lower the pitch, the larger the rafter have to be since it's supporting more load.