How to replace this sub-panel.

[KenC]

That is the plan for now with the exception that I will wire the garage so it is ready for the new panel. We'll continue to use the existing wiring for now. Your choice to beleive the age of the building or not but what incentive would I have to deceive you. The original owners were pretty honest about the condition of the place. Said tree fell on the old garage and the had Amish builder rebuild it.

Rebuild of a damaged building often incorporates part of the remains. Could well be what happened here.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What makes you think this feeder originates from a subpanel?

Where does the exception state that it applies to anything other than dryer and stove circuits?

 

[billconner]

Where does the exception state that it applies to anything other than dryer and stove circuits?

"250.140 Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers. Frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be....."

It's an exception to the above I believe.

 

[billconner]

I do not believe the statement that it's 10 years old.

The building is said to be 10 years old. The panel and maybe rest of electrical is much older, probably salvaged and reinstalled from earlier garage. Sounds like an area where permits and inspections are rare.

 

[Bert_]

Where does the exception state that it applies to anything other than dryer and stove circuits?

You brought up stove and dryer circuits not me. I just pointed out that the code allowed the exact method you claimed was wrong.

I'm still waiting for a code reference stating the bare neutral in SE cable was not allowed for a 3 wire feeder. I haven't found my copy of the 2005 nec to do any checking myself.

 

[rancherbill]

Your choice to beleive the age of the building or not but what incentive would I have to deceive you.

My comment is that did not appear to be wire from the last 10 years. Your explanation of salvage wire makes more sense.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

"250.140 Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers. Frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be....."

It's an exception to the above I believe.

yes but bert is implying it applies to the OPs subpanel as well

 

[Bert_]

running neutral current on a bare/non-insulated conductor past the main service panel has never been allowed. and this is in a detached building. just like it was never allowed to use bare/non-insulated neutral 3-wire SE for dryer and stove circuits. the proper wire had 3 insulated conductors.

also OP stated this was built 10yrs ago. 3-wire feeders were not allowed as of 2008. its possible his AHJ was still on pre-2008 owever the bare/uninsulated neutral is still the issue.

yes but bert is implying it applies to the OPs subpanel as well

Don't make my comment into something it's not. I just pointed out that your statement was at a minimum partially wrong.

I have not done enough checking to prove the other part one way or another. Neither have you apparently

 

[billconner]

yes but bert is implying it applies to the OPs subpanel as well

My apoligies. I thought you questioned it. 250.140 and it's exceptions apply only to the things mentioned, not sub panels.

 

[Lassen Forge]

I know WHY the PO did it - he was cheap and got the box at a deep discount.

Our wellhouse was done similarly (for that reason - if there was something 50 years old and usable, why buy someting new even if it IS safer/in code/doesn't require creative jackassery to use...)

Ours had 2 ea 240 runs (1 for the wellpump, one for the pressure pump) with a 120 leg broken off it - somehow - to run the 110 lighting and the wall plug. In fact, the whole fuse box was a rube goldberg wiring nightmare.... One of the pumps started to push up daisies, blew out one leg of its own side and one of the others... and dimmed the 120 lights.

I'm usually pretty good sussing out basic wiring, but sitting there and studying this mess for half a day (and going through a couple boxes of screw in fuses) , this POS had me totally stumped. Got a well man and certified electrician out there, they cut everything and rewired it normally with normal breakers. They were surprised it had lasted 50 years and not burned down when they hit power to it...

 

[Innovate1]

I don't believe it was ever code compliant with no insulated neutral. Some people don't realize that when a circuit is complete, like when a light is on, that the neutral is hot. Touching it while grounded is really bad for your health!

Not true on the neutral being "hot". The neutral will have, at most, a few volts relative to ground (unless it becomes disconnected). You wouldn't get a shock, not even a mild one. Not saying anything about this setup is right though.