HVAC compressor swap out

[dogdog]

I have a 3 Ton compressor from some lesser name installed on my parent's new build house (back 2006) that thing never worked right, now completely dead (the AC Unit). probably empty charge as well. The air handler / Furnace, is HighBoy CHB unit. it's fine as heat.... The system is setup runs R22 refrigerants for AC... supposedly. The question is: Can I get swap it out for an R410 compressor units with a flush / purge on the evaporator unit inside the HighBoy CHB air handler / furnace ?


HighBoy CHB

 

[Milton Shaw]

R410 runs a lot more pressure, probably the coil inside is not rated for that pressure. You should still be able to buy uncharged R22 condenser units. That would probably be your best choice unless you want to replace all the lines and evaporator coil. The expansion device would probably not be rated for the different freon and would be a ***** to get it working right.

 

[dogdog]

ok, Thanks I needed to verify if the air handler's evaporator coil is capable of handling R410A. If it does all I need is just a purge and of cause change out all that expansion valve and drier?
Anything outside the unit I don't mind changing, just taking apart the air handler from furnace will be a little more challenging.

 

[Mike007]

Do yourself a favor and put in a matching coil at the same time. What you are trying to do to save a few bucks really makes no sense. And if the system is empty, there is a leak. How do you know it's not in the coil?

 

[Boyd]

The quick answer is, it's doubtful. R410 runs at a much higher operating pressure than r22 so the evap coil would need to be 410 compatible, and the metering device (piston or txv) would need to be changed out.

 

[dogdog]

Do yourself a favor and put in a matching coil at the same time. What you are trying to do to save a few bucks really makes no sense. And if the system is empty, there is a leak. How do you know it's not in the coil?

I don't know if coil is good till I tear down and get it tested, No not really trying to save a few buck, but to make sure things are done right this time and within planned budget. Actually I have to plan and budget it, not like I have unlimited funds and it is 200 miles away from me.

Yes make logical sense to change it out.... but it have seen only 1 summer of usage less than 100 hours if at that, then broke the 2nd summer, hoping it is not broke. That told me bad installation job, lets not talk about the Carline EZ1 burner, that was installed.....or the hot water heater that leaks just after it's warranty expires.... But either case probably look for one around the City and bring it up there. Suppliers are limited in those places and probably a family monopoly on installer and supplier. Here if I don't like Joe, I can go to Moe except I don't know Joe or Moe well enough.

Any suggestions on a good reliable compressor? Rheeme Trane, Carrier, Lennox? what about the air handler / Coil?

Promise I won't pipe the gas line into the air handler's condensation drain It's an Oil furnace, so you can give me the information.


AIr Handler

 

[dogdog]

The quick answer is, it's doubtful. R410 runs at a much higher operating pressure than r22 so the evap coil would need to be 410 compatible, and the metering device (piston or txv) would need to be changed out.

Yes, the TXV aka Expansion valve / drier will expected to be changed out. Only asking this is the AirHandler and the Ducts don't want to change that out to fit new unit, if I can keep that in place.

 

[Rockhead261]

Any suggestions on a good reliable compressor? Rheeme Trane, Carrier, Lennox? what about the air handler / Coil?

My OCD demands I point out that a "compressor" is a component inside the "condensing unit".

Yeah... I need a life.

That aside, the way equipment is installed and maintained has much more to do with longevity and reliability than the brand name. Buy matched equipment (condensing unit and evaporator coil) within your budget and have it professionally installed.

 

[dogdog]

My OCD demands I point out that a "compressor" is a component inside the "condensing unit".

Yeah... I need a life.

That aside, the way equipment is installed and maintained has much more to do with longevity and reliability than the brand name. Buy matched equipment (condensing unit and evaporator coil) within your budget and have it professionally installed.

Lol, Thanks, My condenser your capacitor. Probably will have to do that, needed to find a real professional up there, given the experiences.

 

[arsco]

flush it out and run it on 407c with the proper compressor and oil. shouldn't need to change the txv or piston. If your going to change the whole condensing unit just change out the coil as well

 

[LS6 Tommy]

You can't just "swap" 410a for R22. The joints are done differently, the evaporator, metering device, condenser & compressor are different. Not to be insulting, but you need to consult a professional.

Tommy

 

[Ohmthis]

This is what I would consider the upper echelon of DIY. To do this install right you will need a brazing rig, nitrogen (with regulator) to purge while brazing. A good set of gauges for r410a, a quality micron gauge and vacuum rated hoses for the vacuum stage of the build, a vacuum pump, a trustworthy temp probe to set the charge, a damn good working knowledge of how the system works, and the skills to do the job right. These are just to get you to the point of doing the job, let alone the correct equipment and parts. If indeed the compressor on the condenser is burnt out, then a thorough cleaning not just a purge out needs to be done. There are alot of nasties that get thrown through the system. I would change the coil, line set (if it's easily gotten to) and the condenser (with the correct metering device). Get some quotes before jumping in to this, please! You don't want the same thing to happen to the new one. Good luck!

 

[dogdog]

K noted,. thanks and makes sense on changing out the whole thing, that darn thing have not been working since 2007. Right now is just planning stage weather still cold needed heat. If I am DIYing it yes have most equipments not all and don't have my EPA608 with R410A certs yet but that is an easy test..... Probably can beg borrow some of them from "Friends" tool wise, Including that refrigerant scale or leave the charging to some one with those equipments or just contract out that installation to some one.

 

[rkevins]

Unless they have changed the EPA608 test in the 10 years sense I got my universal it is not a easy test we took a 16 hour course then the test, not like a EPA609 open book test

 

[Ohmthis]

DogDog, what could save you some coin and keep a good install would be to take out the old stuff, set the new condenser, run the line set, and put the a coil in the AHU. Then have someone in the know with the tools to make the connections, a proper vacuum, and commission the system.

 

[danski0224]

I have a 3 Ton compressor from some lesser name installed on my parent's new build house (back 2006) that thing never worked right, now completely dead (the AC Unit). probably empty charge as well. The air handler / Furnace, is HighBoy CHB unit. it's fine as heat.... The system is setup runs R22 refrigerants for AC... supposedly. The question is: Can I get swap it out for an R410 compressor units with a flush / purge on the evaporator unit inside the HighBoy CHB air handler / furnace ?

The answer is no.

You can (most likely) obtain a new, proper, compressor. R22 is still available, but it is comparatively expensive- but less expensive than the Frankenstein you are proposing.

Your existing evaporator coil is most likely a 10 SEER and those haven't been made for a long time. Good luck finding one.

Any new condenser will be 13 SEER minimum.

That is a problem with a 10 SEER evaporator.

Yes, you can "make" it work, however, you end up with a very poor performing system. At least one ASHRAE white paper puts it at ~4 to 6 SEER and reduced capacity.

Your least expensive repair is to replace the compressor.

If the rest of the system is not done right, only one way to fix that.

 

[Falcon67]

As above. Our unit ate another cap last year and just didn't cool as well during the summer like it used to. I would never think about changing only the condenser unit, only the set of condenser and A coil. Otherwise, throwing good money after bad IMHO. We'd like to do a whole system change, but that kinda money ain't around here LOL. I think ours may be a 12 or 13 SEER already, so it may just need the compressor replaced. Have to get the model/serial and ask someone.

 

[dogdog]

If R22A units are discontinued / banned from production since 2010 at least in the US. (from google). Even if it is comparatively expensive now to replace it with a R410A unit. It would only cost in long term wise for R22A or it's cousin EF-22A recharges, and parts maintenance.

So if I change out the newer units to the same R22A, I would still have to replace the coils and the condensation units as well since the SEERS are different. I think the unit is a Gibson but definitely less than 10 or so SEERS. it's been discontinued since 2008.

So changing the whole condensing unit and the evaporator coil to R410A and what nots will make it proper. Is there any other reason why people don't like R410A units.
other than I see mention in the post that

1) Joints are made different
2) it operates on higher pressure.


The point is that I am trying not to change out the air handler shell and re-do all the duct works or should I just go for that as well.
It's a small Ranch style house.... 1 level basically with bottom a garage and laundary room/ utility room. 3 Ton is more than enough, or 0 ton works well with front door back door open air flows. Since it is build with the house facing South East, Passive cooling. Either case I wanted to get it fixed / replaced.

 

[Ohmthis]

R410A is not a bad refrigerant and everybody doesn't hate it. That being said there are some down sides to it compared to r22. It can't take moisture at all in the system. Which means there is a different and more involved process in connecting the system. It isn't as efficient as 22 is at cooling. Hence the higher pressures envolved to get the cooling needs. As far as connections some people would solder the joints with 22, I won't say that can't be done with 410, but it is not the usuall way, brazing is. Sometimes people don't like new things also. My advice again is to replace the condenser, line set, and a coil. Sized right and installed correctly it will last several years.

 

[Ohmthis]

Sorry one more thing. If indeed you have an AHU and not a furnace, then you just remove the coil from the housing/frame what ever you want to call it. No replacement of cabinet( another name for it) or duct work.

 

[Rockhead261]

THREADJACK!

What's everyone's take on flushing an R-22 system before retrofitting with R-410A?

I say purge with nitrogen, install a filter/drier inside right before the metering device, and let it fly.

Discuss.

 

[Ohmthis]

Start a new thread on that and I'll post my opinion.

 

[dogdog]

Ok thanks, Yea I am not sure what I have yet as far as evaporator coils..... I know the oil Furnace for heat is forced hot air unit. the AC Evaporator is above it , just wrap with insulation, The furnace is highboy CHB. The compressor / condensing unit is Gibson older model it's a 3Ton very low 9 or 10 SEERS ish if memory serves , they have since discontinued.... thought they were out of business as well but guess not. The Highboy Furnace is from these guys "williamson-thermoflo" seems from their manual, the "Oil Furnace Cased Coil" is pluck right on top of the oil furnace and it is .... I am suspecting most force air oil heating systems are that way. Either case they said that their "Cased Coil" is Compatible with R22 or R410A. just different model size for different Ton and different seer ratings between 13 and 14. Will do more research. But thanks for all the information so far.

 

[dogdog]

THREADJACK!

What's everyone's take on flushing an R-22 system before retrofitting with R-410A?

I say purge with nitrogen, install a filter/drier inside right before the metering device, and let it fly.

Discuss.

I think they sell those liquid flush. to purge them with pulsating jets if you get the fancy ones. It won't flush over metering valves (TXV / expansion valve) or the drier or the compressor. so you have to separate them before flushing. Same thing for automobiles if you flush them. Not sure what the real practice in the field is thought.

The nitrogen won't take away the residual oil left over from the old refrigerants. and dependents on the type of coils you have, if it is similar to the automobile parallel flow (condenser or evaporators) , you can't flush either. I guess what every one is saying the amount of work and the expensive new compressor put in, trying to take a chance with the old coil is not worth it, that point I do agree.

I know you can dry the line for it's last bit of moisture with nitrogen after a vacuum job, pressure test with it, or back purge with it during brazing....

You can take that for your compressor cooler project

 

[danski0224]

If R22A units are discontinued / banned from production since 2010 at least in the US. (from google). Even if it is comparatively expensive now to replace it with a R410A unit. It would only cost in long term wise for R22A or it's cousin EF-22A recharges, and parts maintenance.

So if I change out the newer units to the same R22A, I would still have to replace the coils and the condensation units as well since the SEERS are different. I think the unit is a Gibson but definitely less than 10 or so SEERS. it's been discontinued since 2008.

So changing the whole condensing unit and the evaporator coil to R410A and what nots will make it proper. Is there any other reason why people don't like R410A units.
other than I see mention in the post that

1) Joints are made different
2) it operates on higher pressure.


The point is that I am trying not to change out the air handler shell and re-do all the duct works or should I just go for that as well.
It's a small Ranch style house.... 1 level basically with bottom a garage and laundary room/ utility room. 3 Ton is more than enough, or 0 ton works well with front door back door open air flows. Since it is build with the house facing South East, Passive cooling. Either case I wanted to get it fixed / replaced.

R22 is still available and will continue to be available for a long time. You can still buy R12, for example. Only the price goes up.

R410-A is no different from R22 from an installation practices perspective, although R22 is more forgiving to sloppy workmanship and overcharging.

All of this whooha given to R410-A equipment should have been given to R22 equipment.

Yes, if you replace the condenser and evaporator, you will have a matched system. Go for it if that is what you want.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

R410-A is no different from R22 from an installation practices perspective, although R22 is more forgiving to sloppy workmanship and overcharging.

You can't soft solder the joints on a 410a system. Most manufacturers require brazing.

Tommy

 

[Ohmthis]

Tommy, I have seen soft soldered joints done on a 410 system that was In good operating condition for several years. I have asked a few people about this and Was told that there are some solders that have a 1000 psi rating. I personally would never do this, but I can defiantly say I've seen it done.