These days, the install part of HVAC is performed by close to unskilled labor. It's also pretty rough work.. especially the duct work part. All OK for a packaged unit. But soon you have a split system, then there a few steps that need to be performed thoughtfully. Especially with the 410A units these days.. The R22 was much more forgiving. And if this is not done right - vac and charge, you have a serious exposure. If problems showed up soon, thats one thing.. But the serious ones take a few years to develop (like acid). The service guys in HVAC are the high skilled ones.
HVAC contractor pricing - no thanks
- Thread starter rattle_snake
- Start date
And what about all the inventory on your truck? Does the customer think the 50+5 MFD cap he needed was just the one you had on your truck? And what if the 40A/2P contactor was showing its age? And you just found it, saving him another trip+service call.
Fatboyslim
Active member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2014
- Messages
- 26
Who cares!
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Can't argue with that logic
Dagny
Well-known member
You are my customers
pcmeiners
Well-known member
"You have to be EPA certified to handle any of this.."
Not a big deal, the universal is basically the easiest cert test I ever took out of about 35 cert tests.
Not a big deal, the universal is basically the easiest cert test I ever took out of about 35 cert tests.
Last edited:
86turbodsl
Well-known member
This. It really isn't very hard if you have half a brain.
vinidajackal
Member
- Joined
- Feb 29, 2024
- Messages
- 6
I had three HVAC guys come out to fix a short cycling gas furnace issue in Jan. First two couldn't figure it out. The first guy LITERALLY DISCONNECTED the inducer start capacitor almost right in front of me. "Oh here's one issue, your inducer is starting super slow." Me: "Is the start capacitor still connected." "Oh I must've bumped into it by accident" as he reconnected it. 2nd guy: incompetent, All of them trying to sell a new unit badly. By the time the 3rd came out I had learned everything there is to know about my furnace (I'm an Electrical Engineer) by studying the install manual for hours; I sat him down and asked him to check the condensation trap first. He did. That was the issue.
We fixed that, it ran ok but later I still had an issue with the heat exchanger leaking, so I decided to get a new furnace anyway.
One quote: $6k to $16k . It only needed a 60k BTU natural gas furnace, no new ducting or exhaust etc.
Did it MYSELF for $1600 for a 96% furnace. converted it to direct vent, all new PVC drain piping for both AC and furnace, and installed a concentric vent. Had to buy about $400 worth of tools and materials. Paid a friend $200 for help. So about $2200 and I still have the tools.
Pulled the permits from the local county, which is 100% legal in this county for your own house.
Installed in two weeks (took my time). The job was so well done the inspectors literally looked at it for 10 seconds and said it passed (mechanical + electrical). Delta temperature measured: in spec. Clocked the gas meter: within 2 seconds of ideal. So middle finger to the HVAC industry! I will do the same when my AC goes out! I'll get the tools and the refrigerant license and do the D** thing myself.
They pushed me over the edge. The issue with HVAC industry compared to automotive is that HVAC does NOT have standard fees. They charge variable pricing based upon how cold or hot it is, and upon how desperate they think you are. I told one guy I got a TRANE 17 SEER AC + furnace two years earlier for $5500 after rebates so why would I pay $6k to $16k for JUST a furnace? And they always Gaslight you: "oh I saw that outdoor unit for your upstairs, it's not a 17 SEER I can tell you." "Oh yeah I remember numbers really good and that's one number I KNOW is correct, it's a 17 SEER" I said firmly.
At least with automotive the rate is always the same: if the book says it's a 3 hour labor job: I pay 3 hours + parts, ANY DAY of the year. Only thing that changes mostly is the labor rate between businesses, but not that much. It's not some BS " oh his car is broken down he's desperate so let's really stick it to him." Now scam repairs is another issue entirely, but no different than HVAC scam selling new units unnecessarily.
We fixed that, it ran ok but later I still had an issue with the heat exchanger leaking, so I decided to get a new furnace anyway.
One quote: $6k to $16k . It only needed a 60k BTU natural gas furnace, no new ducting or exhaust etc.
Did it MYSELF for $1600 for a 96% furnace. converted it to direct vent, all new PVC drain piping for both AC and furnace, and installed a concentric vent. Had to buy about $400 worth of tools and materials. Paid a friend $200 for help. So about $2200 and I still have the tools.
Pulled the permits from the local county, which is 100% legal in this county for your own house.
Installed in two weeks (took my time). The job was so well done the inspectors literally looked at it for 10 seconds and said it passed (mechanical + electrical). Delta temperature measured: in spec. Clocked the gas meter: within 2 seconds of ideal. So middle finger to the HVAC industry! I will do the same when my AC goes out! I'll get the tools and the refrigerant license and do the D** thing myself.
They pushed me over the edge. The issue with HVAC industry compared to automotive is that HVAC does NOT have standard fees. They charge variable pricing based upon how cold or hot it is, and upon how desperate they think you are. I told one guy I got a TRANE 17 SEER AC + furnace two years earlier for $5500 after rebates so why would I pay $6k to $16k for JUST a furnace? And they always Gaslight you: "oh I saw that outdoor unit for your upstairs, it's not a 17 SEER I can tell you." "Oh yeah I remember numbers really good and that's one number I KNOW is correct, it's a 17 SEER" I said firmly.
At least with automotive the rate is always the same: if the book says it's a 3 hour labor job: I pay 3 hours + parts, ANY DAY of the year. Only thing that changes mostly is the labor rate between businesses, but not that much. It's not some BS " oh his car is broken down he's desperate so let's really stick it to him." Now scam repairs is another issue entirely, but no different than HVAC scam selling new units unnecessarily.
Last edited:
BiaoBamosux
Member
- Joined
- May 3, 2022
- Messages
- 12
I’ve spent time researching and could’ve done it myself too, but yeah, with these newer systems, it’s not as simple as the old days. The high SEER stuff has so much tech in it now, and if something goes wrong, you're gonna need someone who knows how to handle it.
If you’re into HVAC and want to get more hands-on, you should check out this site I found: https://www.hvacschools411.com/certification/nate-certification/. Could be useful if you’re thinking of doing more of this work yourself or even getting certified.
If you’re into HVAC and want to get more hands-on, you should check out this site I found: https://www.hvacschools411.com/certification/nate-certification/. Could be useful if you’re thinking of doing more of this work yourself or even getting certified.
Last edited:
Big 10-4
No sense getting mad at the contractor. If you are charged The price quoted and the workmanship is good what Is there to complain about? Find another contractor. Or diy. Otherwise it’s like complaining about the price of steak. Find a cheaper restaurant or grill your own.
reader2580
Well-known member
Flat rate is not always the final price in automotive repairs. If there is rust, and there often is in Minnesota, then they add additional time for dealing with the rust.
dcg9381
Well-known member
A buddy (not handy) pinged me and said he got a quote for a mini-split in his "garage" for $6500. Wants me to to "take a look". Meh... Trying to avoid it.
danski0224
Well-known member
Try looking at dental implant pricing.
Now there's a ******* racket.
HVAC pricing is dirt cheap in comparison.
Now there's a ******* racket.
HVAC pricing is dirt cheap in comparison.
dcg9381
Well-known member
I have. I'm over 50:
1) $1200 for "failed root canal" - who knew it could fail?
2) $1000 for sedation extraction (I woke up during "sedation")
3) $4500-$5000 for implant and crown per tooth.
I'm "saving up" enough implants to go overseas and get it more than one done at a time. "Tourist Dentistry".
Dental insurance (mine) doesn't pay $1 towards this.
How anyone has teeth in America is beyond me, which explains Arkansas.
danski0224
Well-known member
I just learned about jawbone bone loss.
If you have missing teeth, don't delay with getting those implants.
Not me, but someone I know.
If you have missing teeth, don't delay with getting those implants.
Not me, but someone I know.
teknikfrog
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2023
- Messages
- 216
I got you beat. I had to get a bridge at 37 (floss your teeth kids!).
A week after finishing up my entire procedure, the dental surgeon lost a patient.
Yeah. He couldn't deal with it, closed up his business and nobody's heard from him since.
Anyway on the hvac subject:
100%.
"Oh no someone's patent ran out so we now need to save bambi with a new formula." Yeah right piss off.
I just had a significant amount of HVAC work done, including furnace replacement. I purposely went with "the little guy" and only called a few smaller local companies. Actually went with the highest bid, although not by much. Estimate was itemized somewhat, not just a number. Reasonable additional work was recommended and I am happy. Yes, labor rates have significantly increased in recent years. Locally, I would say in almost every industry...
Agree with the dental implant statements.
Agree with the dental implant statements.
justinjoyal
Well-known member
Ilikeike
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I have a friend that does HVAC estimates, that $6,500 is about right.
He said they would charge about $5,000 to install the one I DIY'd myself. Running conduit for the 240v, wire,disconnect, concrete pad, not the plastic pad thing, mount it all, Vac & test... It would need a Permit and inspection.
I had around $1,200 in it myself.
If you're not a handyman, contractor, or on Garage Journal, you're gonna pay....
I received a bid for a Mitsubishi hyper heat outdoor heat pump with a 9,000 and a 12,000 btu wall heads for a loft space in a newly constructed shop. All material and labor (minus electrical) came to $10,750. I almost fell over when I read the bid. I'm waiting on comparable bids from other companies. Does the GJ crew think this bid reasonable or out of line? How hard of a job is it for a guy who has never done one before but is reasonably handy?
justinjoyal
Well-known member
I should move my business to the US, the profit margin must be through the roof !
danski0224
Well-known member
If you have to ask...
But hey, someone else will be along to tell you that it's easy and shouldn't cost more than 50 bucks.
Download the installation manual, read it, and decide for yourself.
Last edited:
danski0224
Well-known member
I do start ups of split type HVAC equipment that is usually installed and/or piped by others. Electrical is also by others.
Almost every single one has issues.
The typical commentary in this forum comparing the cheapest online **** equipment with a "DIY" install compared to retail equipment and labor is laughable.
Carry on.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
What kinds of issues do you see?
danski0224
Well-known member
Improper pipe sizing.
Low voltage control wiring issues.
Wrong phasing (3 phase).
Last one has poor coordination between piping and electrician, resulting in no space for suction line insulation where stuff goes into the "doghouse" for the roof penetrations, and improper suction line insulation thickness, resulting in high superheat at the compressor.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Ah, OK, bigger systems. I was thinking it was minis
danski0224
Well-known member
zak77
Well-known member
It's that bad at all. I did something similar with a 9k & 18K floor mount mitsub system this past spring and it was relatively straight forward. Read and follow the manual. I had an HVAC guy help with the lineset install since i never did that before and prefered not to kink a line but after watching him and making some adjustments to the lines i'd have no problem doing it myself, take it slow and easy. I had him vac and release refrigerant for a total of $600. By the time i bought a good vac pump and other misc things i'd need, i wouldve spent over $600 so it seemed like a good way to get a little experience with these under my belt. Honestly, $10k isnt horrible since i've seen some companies charge $15-20K for a similar setup. I'd hope for the $ that they do a quality install which is why i wanted to do the install, so it was done right. The guy i hired joked about why i didnt do everything since he was impressed with my work but i told him i didnt have all the tools for it.
Last edited:
RalphInCA
Well-known member
I heard on a podcast I trust that for every 2 people who enter “the trades“ 10 retire.
If this is even close to true, price escalation has just started.
If this is even close to true, price escalation has just started.
This is true. Having a trade has been looked upon very poorly for years. Now their getting their due. But now you enter a trade and learn, train and give blood sweat and tears to gain experience just to have some ****, who doesn't know what a screwdriver is, complain about your prices. Then they call you at 2am about no heat or whatever problem they have with equipment they didn't maintain. "Those guys are a ripoff" is what their reasoning is. I find it funny that schools don't teach basic mechanical knowledge anymore. The trades are capitalizing on it now. The university trained people who can't get a job and can't do anything for thenselves are in a pickle now aren't they?
danski0224
Well-known member
Those are better than the university trained people designing the job...
TurnipTruck
Well-known member
I find it funny but disheartening that it is even necessary to have a prerequisite class to teach basic tool introduction at the college level to students going into the local Industrial Instrumentation (for instance) degree program. It’s further discouraging that the class is only infrequently offered due to insufficient signups despite nearly guaranteed employment upon graduation.
One would think that kids going into a tool-using career would already know how to use tools, but maybe they had a less hardscrabble childhood than I did.
But then, in talking with my now-retired optometrist, he revealed that he doesn’t own a single tool, and that his father may have had a screwdriver in a kitchen junk drawer once. My mind was blown.
Maybe those of us on this board are weird outliers and it’s far far far more common to be service consumers than service providers.
On the other hand, I know that some of the big hvac contractors around here charge 400% of their normal install labor rates to do minisplits. In other words, if their labor is normally $200 /hr, they're 800/hr. this leads to insanity like them quoting a complete conventional system on a house with no ductwork for less than putting in a split with two heads, mounted on the same exterior wall. (they're not providing a cost break out to the customer, just an all in price.)
danski0224
Well-known member
That's what multiple qualified bids/quotes are for.
Ultimately it's up to the homeowner to decide.
I do not give blanket approval for obscene charges, but on the other hand, what is the definition of obscene?
There's a thread going on million dollar car restos and a labor rate has been mentioned, and no one is shitting about $$$ rates in that thread. Interesting, eh?
justinjoyal
Well-known member
I sell/install/service "retail equipment and labor." I've never in my life sold a single residential mini-split for 6500$, because I'd be ripping off my customers and I'm not into that.
Maybe there are reasons the prices are so high down there compared to here in Canada, but it still is plain crazy to me !
justinjoyal
Well-known member
That's what it looks like from an outside POV.
The prices I see here on GJ or other forums for mini-splits are often astonishing.
No, that's actual knowledge of how they generate their quotes from someone who used to write them. they also had a script to defend the practice, which was largely telling lies about how much harder splits are to install.