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Hvac efficiency concern

TOOL FANATIK

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I was wondering if any HVAC guys could shed their insight. I have an FHA. System and Last winter I noticed that the return registers (in the walls not the floors) also pull air from their stud bays. I figured with my leaky house it would not put too much load on the blower by sealing up the stud bays, that is, adding canned spray foam on the two sides and above the return, behind the wall, so that the only air pulled is from the living space and not behind the walls. I'm aware that its tuff to say whether this puts too much strain on the system without knowing the layout and blower size and so on, but is it normal practice to have the returns pull air from behind the walls or should they be sealed, as to minimize the amount of air that you're paying to condition?
 
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Falcon67

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I can't answer about any strain on the system, but ALL your duct work - both feed and return - should be sealed against leaks. If the system was sized properly in the first place, there won't be any strain on the system. After you seal all that up then start looking for leaks in the house. We had a blower test done a couple of years ago and you might be shocked at the places air comes pouring into your conditioned space. Try interior door strikes in the door frames - we were losing well over 100 CFM through the little strike holes in 8 door frames. I used mastic to seal the feeding ducts to the plenum and registers and to seal the registers to the drywall. I spent two days sealing and insulating the return plenum under the unit - it was pulling in air from the stud bays to the attic, under the wall from the garage and the laundry room and leaking around the base of the air handler.
 

Jackfre

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Falcon is spot on. Make sure if you do this sealing that you use the right material. Rated duct sealants and metal tape. Do not use duct tape. It is good for everything other than what it is named for.

Google "DOEduct leakage" and read for a while
 
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TOOL FANATIK

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Thank you falcon. I'm not interested in attempting to seal up the cracks and gaps in my home. I actually worked on a green home, energy guy came after spray foam and sheet rock, installed a large blower fan sealed onto the main entry doorway to create negative pressure. If you were standing near a crack when that blower was pulling, you could almost see the air wipping on in! Anyway this energy guy had us caulk any gaps 1/8" or smaller and spray foam anything larger than 1/8". The goal was to have no more than golfball size worth or air leakage. They say avg home is more like a beach ball, and mine is no exception. But like yours, I had air pulling right from those stud bays, pulling air from the attic. I was only wondering if this is common practice to NOT seal up the stud bays. Most homes I see the registers are in the floor, not the walls. I'm in the northeast, btw.
 
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TOOL FANATIK

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Jackfre Mike Holmes would say that often in his show, duct tape, its good for everything but duct work lol. In reality there's plenty of applications you should not use it, but we still do lol. Thanks ill google that.
 

Falcon67

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It's common practice to not spend any more time on the job than necessary. Stud bay returns should be sealed, I'd think you'd have to ask/demand to have it done when it was being built. Your house doesn't have to be air tight - ours is not (two bath fans, kitchen fan, fire place) but every little bit helps more than you know. Doesn't take much to equal "might as well leave a window wide open". About $40 worth of stuff knocked around 300 CFM of leakage out of the house.

The new kitchen fan can pull 400 CFM, so we can now run a poor boy blower test by turning on the kitchen vent and all the bath vents. :lol: Works!
 
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Freejack

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As far as blower itself goes, sealing the returns reduces the area of the opening(s) allowing air into the return, which would raise the static pressure of the system, in turn reducing CFMs and the actual load on the motor. If you have a PSC type blower motor, you should see the wattage go down. If it is an ECM type motor running in a constant volume mode, the watts will likely go up as the controller speeds up the motor to reach the programmed CFM. Fortunately if it an EC motor, you will not have to worry about overloading the motor, as the software in the motor controller will not allow the motor load to exceed the design limit.

Now as to overall system performance, if the returns are pulling in unconditioned air, the sealing them will acutally reduce the load on the system, as you will not be trying to cool/heat the outdoor air. Even if the returns are pulling in conditioned air through these gaps, the effect of sealing means the conditioned air may be delievered in more appropriate locations throughout the home, allowing the temp setpoint to be adjusted to a more economical point.

The tighter the home the better, but you can get a home too tight, some air change is benefical to the occupants, plus if you run any gas appliances, you may need some air change for proper venting.

Jake
 
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TOOL FANATIK

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wonderful response Jake, thank you! what is a psc and ecm (electrical control module? ) taking a stab lol. i will assume mine is not the latter, its belt driven if that makes a difference. i figured that i reduced the amount of air im trying to condition, therefore lessening the load, increasing the pressure which = faster air which = less heat exchange...which doesnt bother me. please correct me if im wrong.
 

Freejack

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A permanent split capacitor (PSC) is the more common induction motor found in lots of furnances and air handlers, especially the lower efficency units (80%, 13 SEER). Electroniclly communtated motors (ECM) as also sometimes know as DC or BLDC are more common on higher efficiency systems. They are basicly brushless permanent magent motors with a control module intgrated onto the end of the motor. Some ECM motors can also operate in a constant volume mode, meaning they deliever a specific CFM flow regardless of the static (within a certian range).

The goal of the airflow in a forced air system is not velocity per say, but meeting the designed airflow spec, which in A/C systems is generally around 400 CFM per ton capacity.

Reducing the airflow doesn't lesson the "load" which for a single stage systems is basicly how long the system has to run for a given condition, but can increase the time the unit has to run, etc. Too low an airflow can introduce other issues, such as a frozen coil.

In your case, since you are sealing off outside (unconditioned) air, that means the air passing over the coil is already starting a tempurature closer to the setpoint you want. For example, if you have the house temp set to 75°, the A/C system running appropriately will generally drop the temp around 20°, so the air out of the coil will be 55°. If you are mixing in outdoor air, lets say the return air is 5°F higher, meaing the air off the coil will be 60° instead of 55°, so your system has to run longer to meet your set temp. In addition, if you are drawing in outside air, you are likely forcing it out somewhere else, likely your bathroom vents and other locations.

Jake
 
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DEnd

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http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/building-science/how-duct-leakage-steals-twice

http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog-...t-HVAC-Duct-Idea-Ever-The-Panned-Joist-Return

Basically don't use building cavities or panned joist bays for your duct work. Your best and really only option is to install well sealed duct work in your walls. You will also want to make sure that the returns are large enough, the basic rule is the return duct needs to be as large as your main supply duct.

The reason is even for returns, building cavities and panned bays are almost impossible to air seal. This can easily pull in unconditioned air into the HVAC system. It can also allow it to pull in dust and other biological contaminants (such as fumes from rodent droppings, mold spores, etc...) leading to health risks. This may also cause your coil to get dirty faster which becomes another source of inefficiency in your house.
 

DEnd

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The tighter the home the better, but you can get a home too tight, some air change is benefical to the occupants, plus if you run any gas appliances, you may need some air change for proper venting.

Jake


In most climates you cannot (reasonably) get a home too tight. You can get it tight enough to require mechanical ventilation, but that really is something most homes (even leaky ones) probably need anyway, and something the vast majority of homes already have (I'll get to that in a second). The reasoning is this indoor air in homes can be more than 5 times more polluted than outdoor air. Studies have consistently shown that in work places adequate mechanical ventilation reduces the number of sick days people take. Now homes are not work places (for one they are often less densely occupied) but there are some parallels. For one homes that have moisture issues do benefit from mechanical ventilation, except during hot humid weather. Secondly, just because a house is leaky does not mean it is getting adequate ventilation passively. It can even be getting adequate ventilation but having it inadequately distributed.

For human health there are a few things we need to make sure are addressed, in regards to ventilation. #1 is oxygen levels, in this case it is normally derived from CO2 concentrations because CO2 is easy to measure. Even in leaky homes it is easy enough to get above minimal CO2 concentration levels. I've seen readings about 1000ppm CO2 in leaky homes, while that is not an immediate health threat I'd like to see it less than 600ppm. #2 is carbon monoxide, this is easy enough to control, only use non combustion or sealed combustion appliances. #3 Radon, again mitigation not ventilation. #4 NO2, which is a combustion by-product again eliminate the combustion eliminate the risk. #5 Acrolein, again a combustion by-product (wood, tobacco, candles, food) for the most part not burning stuff in the house eliminates most of the risk, the rest is from cooking. #5 Formaldehyde; this off gasses from glues and binders used in cabinets, furniture, insulation, etc... elimination of sources is the most effective way of dealing with this but it is often not feasible to always eliminate it completely. This one is tricky because you need to get the levels down to 0.10 ppm and there is not a set ventilation rate that will guarantee to get it down to that level (if it is elevated). #6 Particulate Matter, particularly below 2.5 micrometers in diameter. For the OP this is the major concern since he is drawing air from unsealed quasi ducts. PM is typically controlled by recirculating air filtration. #7 VOCs in general, point source control is most effective (not using insecticides, air fresheners, solvents to clean with, etc...).

Most homes have effective mechanical ventilation already, though they may not be used effectively. Those are Most clothes dryers, bathroom exhaust fans and range hoods. If ensuring ventilation is a concern the cheapest option is to put the bath fans on a timer so that they provide 3 cfm per 100 sqft of living space and 7.5 cfm per person while the home is occupied (ASHRAE standard 62.2), or in accordance with Building Science Corp's ventilation standard (http://www.buildingscience.com/docu...ationforNewLowRiseResidentialBuildings_v2.pdf). Those are minimum rates (BSC's is typically the lower of the two), If you have pollutant sources you are not able to control (typically Formaldehyde) then you need to ventilate at a rate that brings levels down to what is acceptable. There are situations when I do not consider bath fans an acceptable solution. Here the most typical is likely houses with attached garages, for those houses I would prefer to see a supply ventilation system ducted to each of the bedrooms (15 cfm to each) and the remainder to the living (family) room, or have it connected to the HVAC system. A balanced system would also be acceptable but I would prefer if the attached garage also had a separate exhaust ventilation system. The other instance I do not find exhaust ventilation systems acceptable is where there is not adequate air mixing in the house. Typically this is actually an issue with the builder not allowing for adequate return air to the HVAC's return from various rooms, or only using something like a wood stove to heat with.
 

pseudorealityx

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Just fyi.... 600 ppm of CO2 is EXTREMELY low for an occupied building, even one that exceeds ventilation code. When we use demand controlled ventilation, we assume the static outside CO2 ppm is ~400, and code allows up to a 700 ppm delta. IE....anything less than 1100 ppm is deemed acceptable.

Trying to keep below 600 ppm is a bit of a fairy tale.


And you should NEVER duct ventilation straight to the space unless it's been conditioned with some sort of HVAC system. Run it to the return side of the split, or if you have a packaged unit, use the outside air damper.
 
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TOOL FANATIK

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thanks DEend and pseudorealityx, does fluke manufacture a meter that will detect and measure the gases you speak of? ive used a fluke meter to measure ppm but do not believe it had the capability to identify the different gases. what is used in the industry? if it is practical for me to get my hands on one, id love to measure these levels in my home. it was never a concern of mine (actually i have thaught about it; co2 and other conmbustion byproducts) but now i am very curious. as far as return ducts they are just pans over the floor joists, but i do implement fiberglass sheets on the grills of all the returns, but more importantly a MERV 13 pleated filter at the unit. ive been led to believe this is an awesome setup. i have not seen a filter with my dimensions with a higher rating than the one i have. i want my family to breathe the best air possible in our home.
 

pseudorealityx

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You can google for CO2 sensors, but most will be wired wall mounted type units that tie into a commercial HVAC system. I'm sure there are hand-held versions, but I'm not familiar with them.

MERV 13 is certainly a good filter. If you have carpet, vacuum the **** out of it as it likely collects much more than the filter does.
 

Milton Shaw

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One thing that can make a difference in homes is central vacuum system vented outside. Most vacuums are not HEPA rated and actually stir up as much dust as they pickup and keep in the bag. Another thing that adds a lot of VOC's to the house is females doing their nails-- that stuff is not permitted at all in industry without filtered supplied air systems but teenagers use it like it's was nothing. I don't know how many of us GJ's have wives that worship you but their placing burnt offerings in front of us also contributes to indoor air quality.
 
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TOOL FANATIK

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Agreed. I had a Kirby that was great at sucking up dirt, but it was a bagged unit and the amount of dust that would escape is enough to make you sneeze while using it. The Dyson is sealed all the way around, and it uses a HEPA filter. Not having pets helps to keep the air clean too
 
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