HVAC experts Trane "Clean Effects" & Extended Warranty question.

[SUPERFORD]

Hey guys, I need some help.

Last year on the advice of my A/C contractor installed a Mitsubishi Mini Split Ductless system in my garage project.

I LOVE IT!!! it is silent, amazingly efficient and so far has worked flawlessly.

Last week the A/C on my house stopped working. I called out the same contractor who did IMHO a great job on the garage.

He is recommending replacing my nearly 20yr old Goodman (el cheapo?) system with a new Trane heat pump & air handler.

He has given me 4 options from 13 to 20 SEER.

My question mainly pertains to one of the OPTIONS he offered:
the Trane "Clean Effects" electronic air filter.

This thing supposedly filters down to .1 micron of a gnats *** and kills flu germs and blah blah blah. it's intended to be cleaned regularly as opposed to regular filter replacements. Trane advertises it as the ultimate filter. I've heard mixed reviews from "love it" to "hate it" on the interwebs.

Just looking for some opinions of first hand experience. it's more expensive than a regular filter setup, but with the available rebate, not ridiculously so.

Also, should I buy the optional 10yr extended warranty. This doubles the warranty, but apparently also requires me to sign up for a "maintenance contract" with my local contractor...

let me know what you guys think.

thanks,
Chris

 

[Full Throttle]

I as a Trane dealer for my residential side bussiness and also a Trane employee as an Industrial service tech, am not real pleased with the ''electronic style'' air cleaners, it has a honeycombe pre filter prior to the electronic part. I just built my house 3 years ago and installed the Clean Effects. After the first time I serviced it and found out it really was a pain in the ***, I installed a 4' pleated filter that I can pull out and throw away. So my vote is no on the clean effects and have them install a 4'' media filter.

Also as far as th SEER rating, I don't know where you live but I prefer the 2 stage equipment, does a great job of moisture control in spring and fall when the cooling load is not enough to make the unit run alot, they run at a lower capacity for I/E if you have a 3 ton 2 stage, it has the ability to run at 2 tons and 3 ton, it's really nice and worth every $.

Now if you use a heat pump and it's 2 stage I would reccomend yoiu have the contractor install a lockout so that if it's below lets say 45* the unit goes into high full capacity heat mode. If you don't you will find alot of temperature lag in the house, as the low stage wont keep up temp drop's goes to high warms then drops back to low over and over again all the while you are cold an uncomfy customer.

if you don't have issues with the comfort level in your house now (other than broke unit) 15 Seer is the best value for money spent and return on investment.
what is your heat?

 

[SUPERFORD]

I live in central Virginia.

Summer highs around 98-100 with high humidity.

Winter= lows in the 20's or occasional teens.

I have just the heatpump/air handler & electric backup (strips?) to my knowledge.

no gas furnace or anything like that.

I was trying to decide between the 16i & 20i dual stage units to try and save some money on the electric bill.

P.S. what are your thoughts on that extended warranty?

 

[Full Throttle]

extended warranty: my thoughts

those units you are looking at have 10 year parts, you would be purchasing 10 years of labor warranty for what a grand? I have seen it pay for itself and I have seen equipment fail in 11 years, as well as run 20 years and not need but regular service. it a dice roll. The important thing is the instalation of your equipment, Trane has opened up the doors to just about anyone with a license which has given them a bad rap due to poor quality installs.

You will be more than pleased with the 16i, for the money out vs money saved. You will really like the 2 stage benefit for cooling applications, but beware of the lag I was trying to explain in the heating mode, you have to find that fine line between outdoor temps, the heat loss in your house and what the system can produce and lck out low stage at those temps and below. I live in coastal Carolina 3600ft Cape Cod full wrap roofed porch 3 ton down and 1.5 ton up, I have mine set at 48* to go straight to high stage.
My house was drafty, cool, and very dry my first year till I found this issue, this was also before they came out with the new communicating interfaces so it may be a non issue now, but it was 5 years ago. I then called a few customers that I had installed in the past to make sure they didn't have an issue and fixed if needed, luchily I live in a resort area so locals don't want the bells and whistles and rental houses no need.

 

[redsky49]

Couple of thoughts from my perspective:

Is natural gas available? I will assume not, but if it is available, gas pricing nationally has been dropping, and likely widening the savings compared to electric heating costs.

Do you have any rebates available? By all means, check to find out if you qualify. Many times even small electric utilities offer substantial rebates (particularly if they are near total generating capacity) that can swing the economics in your favor. There are rebates also on the Federal and State levels.

Are you paying $0.08/kwh for electricity or are you paying $0.15/kwh? Unless you are at the higher end of the scale, you may find it difficult to justify the higher cost of the more efficient unit.

The only way to justify the additional costs of the higher efficiency unit is to calculate the payback, or return on investment (ROI). Does the unit provide sufficient savings to offset the higher cost? In many cases the answer is no. If there isn't a calculated payback in less than seven years, I would not consider the high efficiency unit.

Other factors to consider are how long you plan to live in the house. Would a new mechanical system add to the resale value? Would the higher efficiency system make any difference? Are there any shortcomings in the existing system that would be addressed by the new system?

As to the Trane "Clean Effects" filter, these are electrostatic filters and have been around for a number of years. They can be a maintenance problem, are sometimes noisy and generate various amounts of ozone - though Trane claims to have reduced the amount of ozone in their units. Unless you are immuno-compromised, suffer from severe allergy or have another compelling reason, my preference would be to opt for an upgraded disposable filter, in either 2" or 4" size (note that you should take into account the increased resistance of this filter and design the system accordingly!).

Extended warranties are gambles - do you feel lucky? If not, put that money into an interest earning investment, set aside for that rainy day emergency. If tied to a mandatory service contract, you will be paying for that "insurance" many times over.

As always, offered only as opinion

 

[SUPERFORD]

FWIW, the contractor has offered to "throw in" the 10 year extended warranty (quoted as an $800 option) if I go with the 20i model.

I suppose that this means I would be locked into the maintenance contract for the next 10 years!

 

[Full Throttle]

FWIW, the contractor has offered to "throw in" the 10 year extended warranty (quoted as an $800 option) if I go with the 20i model.

I suppose that this means I would be locked into the maintenance contract for the next 10 years!

the extended warranty has nothing to do with being locked into a maint contract. They do not require you to have a contact for extended warranty purposes.

 

[brewchief]

the extended warranty has nothing to do with being locked into a maint contract. They do not require you to have a contact for extended warranty purposes.

I work for a Lennox dealer and right now much of the equipment we sell can be upgraded from a 5 year parts to a 10 year simply by registering it online within 60 days of install, however one of the items in the fine print is that proof of periodic maintenance may be required when submitting parts for warranty, if no maintenance is done parts warranty can be denied. Not sure if Trane is the same but it should be easy enough to find out.

The way we do it is you get one year labor with a new install and then when you do the maintenance each year it adds a year of labor up to ten years.

I prefer a simple 4-5" media filter over any of the electronic filters.

Ask for an AHRI match up sheet on both units you are looking at, it will show the SEER rating for your exact combo, there are cases were you can get almost the same rating out of two units that have a pretty good price difference.

 

[jonesmechanical]

I just ended a 12 year relation ship with Trane. Some of the best equipment I have worked on and installed. We are now 100% Lennox. We couldn't be happier. We do a lot of zoning and retrofits, and the Lennox line couldn't compliment that better. It was mostly a personnel issue Locally and some politics that created the change. We installed a few Clean Effects filtration systems, but they require heavy maintenance to maintain the advertised level of filtration. Also, if left unattended for a little too long, the pre filter really shuts down air flow and creates some high static resistance. I was interested in a lower maintenance product for our clients.

Back in the day, because of Trane's lack of zoning applications for their XV furnace line, we primarily used Aprilaire's full line of products for zoning, filtration, humidification (we are dry here in Utah). We loved their 5000 electronic air filter. We have tested and measured air flows after a full year of use on a 2000 cfm system (dual filter) and air flows were still within acceptable levels of pressure drop.

Currently, we are addicted to Lennox's simple 5" wide filter box that receives any filter you want to put in it. They also have a Pureaire line that is equally impressive. Lennox makes a true merv16 filter that is a drop in. Its a bit spendy (about $90 for a 20x25x5 filter), but holds up for a full year on a 1200 cfm system.

The killer for us on the Clean Effects was this also: we are primarily a New Construction HVAC contractor. What ever filter we put in, it has to hold up to the rigors of new construction. Sure, we scream and yell at out contractors not to turn on the equipment, but at the end of the day, everyone turns the equipment on. Do that on a Clean Effects, and its trouble in spades. It will be ruined. The Aprilaire filters, along with the Lennox filters protect the equipment and the supply ductwork flawlessly during new construction.

If you end up being interested in the Lennox equipment, let me know. We have a national account, I am licensed in most states as we travel quite a bit with out contractors doing large customs homes. Shoot me a PM and I will point you in a direction of some savings, I would be more than happy to help out. This forum has been a tremendous resource for my home projects.

 

[Jackfre]

I come at this a bit differently. Your current system is over 20 yrs old. You love your current mini-split. I'm a manuf rep. This week I called on 12 HVAC contractors. I worked the conversation around to existing residential duct work deficiency. To meet todays spec a duct system, in CA, can't have, I think it is greater than 6% leakage. That is the current spec. There was no spec for leakage in the past. Some of the contractors I spoke with are saying that they are having to take classes to test, evaluate and repair existing duct work. Your and 99.999% of all people in forced air H/C applications problem is that the duct leaks like a sieve. Trane, Lennox, Carrier, all of them, can put all the technology they want into the box. They just can't deliver it thru the existing duct systems. One of the contractors offered that it would cost $10-12k to rehab an existing duct system. I have a DOE publication that says that residential duct work will leak anywhere from 18-42%. Take the median and say 30%. Let's say you have a 90% furnace with 30% leakage. That is a 63% efficient system...day one! My suggestion, before doing anything is to get a pressure test on your duct system. I think you will be blown away Actually, my suggestion is to not waste the money on that test. Just go with the mini-splits.

I spoke with another contractor a few weeks ago who did a couple houses last year that were 3500 sq ft. One was conventional high eff condensing gas and the other house was done with mini-splits. Installed $ came out almost identically. Difference is the ms house bought more capital goods and less labor. The ms house operated for less than half of the other.

Given your success with the current garage unit, I'd suggest you get bids on Mitsu and Fujitsu units. Put the highest efficiency unit in the primary living space (mine is 25 seer and 12 hspf), the one you keep conditioned all the time and go with multis to handle the rest of the house. I did that at my home after tearing probably the worst duct system ever installed out of my new old house. I have a combination of Fujitsu's and a Rinnai Energysaver. Life is good. We are comfortable and efficient! Happy Heating! Oh, one more thing. You will not require back-up heat on the new mini-splits. They will easily heat your house at your temps.

 

[Full Throttle]

I come at this a bit differently. Your current system is over 20 yrs old. You love your current mini-split. I'm a manuf rep. This week I called on 12 HVAC contractors. I worked the conversation around to existing residential duct work deficiency. To meet todays spec a duct system, in CA, can't have, I think it is greater than 6% leakage. That is the current spec. There was no spec for leakage in the past. Some of the contractors I spoke with are saying that they are having to take classes to test, evaluate and repair existing duct work. Your and 99.999% of all people in forced air H/C applications problem is that the duct leaks like a sieve. Trane, Lennox, Carrier, all of them, can put all the technology they want into the box. They just can't deliver it thru the existing duct systems. One of the contractors offered that it would cost $10-12k to rehab an existing duct system. I have a DOE publication that says that residential duct work will leak anywhere from 18-42%. Take the median and say 30%. Let's say you have a 90% furnace with 30% leakage. That is a 63% efficient system...day one! My suggestion, before doing anything is to get a pressure test on your duct system. I think you will be blown away Actually, my suggestion is to not waste the money on that test. Just go with the mini-splits.

I spoke with another contractor a few weeks ago who did a couple houses last year that were 3500 sq ft. One was conventional high eff condensing gas and the other house was done with mini-splits. Installed $ came out almost identically. Difference is the ms house bought more capital goods and less labor. The ms house operated for less than half of the other.

Given your success with the current garage unit, I'd suggest you get bids on Mitsu and Fujitsu units. Put the highest efficiency unit in the primary living space (mine is 25 seer and 12 hspf), the one you keep conditioned all the time and go with multis to handle the rest of the house. I did that at my home after tearing probably the worst duct system ever installed out of my new old house. I have a combination of Fujitsu's and a Rinnai Energysaver. Life is good. We are comfortable and efficient! Happy Heating! Oh, one more thing. You will not require back-up heat on the new mini-splits. They will easily heat your house at your temps.

Good point, along with leakage as well as the r value of its insulation.
I would get a home energy audit done, test the leakage of the building, ductwork and all
They are reletivaly inexpensive for the test

 

[rr999999999]

I come at this a bit differently. Your current system is over 20 yrs old. You love your current mini-split. I'm a manuf rep. This week I called on 12 HVAC contractors. I worked the conversation around to existing residential duct work deficiency. To meet todays spec a duct system, in CA, can't have, I think it is greater than 6% leakage. That is the current spec. There was no spec for leakage in the past. Some of the contractors I spoke with are saying that they are having to take classes to test, evaluate and repair existing duct work. Your and 99.999% of all people in forced air H/C applications problem is that the duct leaks like a sieve. Trane, Lennox, Carrier, all of them, can put all the technology they want into the box. They just can't deliver it thru the existing duct systems. One of the contractors offered that it would cost $10-12k to rehab an existing duct system. I have a DOE publication that says that residential duct work will leak anywhere from 18-42%. Take the median and say 30%. Let's say you have a 90% furnace with 30% leakage. That is a 63% efficient system...day one! My suggestion, before doing anything is to get a pressure test on your duct system. I think you will be blown away Actually, my suggestion is to not waste the money on that test. Just go with the mini-splits.

I spoke with another contractor a few weeks ago who did a couple houses last year that were 3500 sq ft. One was conventional high eff condensing gas and the other house was done with mini-splits. Installed $ came out almost identically. Difference is the ms house bought more capital goods and less labor. The ms house operated for less than half of the other.

Given your success with the current garage unit, I'd suggest you get bids on Mitsu and Fujitsu units. Put the highest efficiency unit in the primary living space (mine is 25 seer and 12 hspf), the one you keep conditioned all the time and go with multis to handle the rest of the house. I did that at my home after tearing probably the worst duct system ever installed out of my new old house. I have a combination of Fujitsu's and a Rinnai Energysaver. Life is good. We are comfortable and efficient! Happy Heating! Oh, one more thing. You will not require back-up heat on the new mini-splits. They will easily heat your house at your temps.

Mitsu SEER is at full blast. The comparison is fixed with non-inverter units. No way to compare the efficiency. The true efficiency might be 35 SEER or more for the Mitsu.

 

[JimL]

Don't do an EAC.
Go with a premium pleated media filter. Don't let him sell you a 1" thick filter setup.
Im not a fan of trane equipment but whoever is a good honest dealer is the one I would go with.

 

[pop pop]

Most installers will bite on this offer. If 10 years on parts, then make it 10 years parts and labor at the offered price. If they have confidence in their install and equipment, they should take it. Even in the first year, they are eating the labor on warranty work and most of it is caused by poor installation. I did this on my retrofit 6 years ago and noticed how careful and detailed the installation was since they were eating any call backs for years. Even had to call around to find an electronic vacuum gage to meet Carrier's spec.

 

[rr999999999]

Don't do an EAC.
Go with a premium pleated media filter. Don't let him sell you a 1" thick filter setup.
Im not a fan of trane equipment but whoever is a good honest dealer is the one I would go with.

Trane's perfect fit 5" media filter is almost $100 a piece. Bear, Filtrete, Honeywell 5" but really 4" media filter about $27. These filters say for one year, buy two for the year and save half. Gives you MERV 12.

 

[JimL]

Ones we sell are 5" merv 11. Get $30 each or $50 for 2.

 

[rr999999999]

If I order two to be shipped to San Antonio TX how much would that be?

 

[JimL]

?? There are a ton of media filters out there. The ones we sell are 5" thick. We custom make the cabinets to fit them. We don't ship parts. I was stating that there are better options than the train filters. You pay alot for the name with them.

 

[Jackfre]

Mitsu SEER is at full blast. The comparison is fixed with non-inverter units. No way to compare the efficiency. The true efficiency might be 35 SEER or more for the Mitsu.

That is true. The DOE has no method to test the real efficiency of an inverter/variable speed mini-split heat pump. Given the politics of the situation, all the mshp's are foreign while all the ducted systems are US/Canada/Mexico made means there is not a lot of inducement to develop a true test of seasonal efficiencies. It would make the unitary manuf look worse than they are. Mshp are pushing the efficiencies of ground source heat pumps.

 

[rr999999999]

The heating and cooling for our homes will be 50% of our energy cost, but industry are fighting tooth and nail to keep out the mini-split. To mini-split a garage we charge $4500.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I have one of those expensive thick pleated filters.

Deep Pleat Air Cleaner
Description: Air Filters; Type: Pleated Air Cleaner; Width: 24-1/2 (Inch); Length: 19-3/4 (Inch); Depth: 6-3/8 (Inch); Material: Cotton Polyester; Description: Spaceguard Replacement Filter

The contractor installed a Trane 1200 system in this house in '95. Its a log house, the owner/builder ran out of money in '84 when they built and never installed heat or air. They lived on a fireplace and a window unit for ten years. I bought the house in '97 and bought the first filter from the dealer/installer. Turns out they come in boxes of two and he charged me for one, what two of them cost. I figured out MSC supply carries them and now order two at a time. I get as much as 18 mos out of them with no noticeable loss of air flow and the filter looks good also. This was with a cat in the house (dander and hair). It was a zoned system, which the installer told me the owner (widow, husband died in '93) insisted on. I couldn't control the temps worth a flip, finally called Temp-a-Trol who made the zone system and after describing the floor plan, the tech support guy tole me that a zone system should have never been installed. I ended up disconnecting the zone dampers and locking them open, and removing the zone thermostats. House cools and heats OK. Cooling is not sufficient upstairs, but it is not used anyhow. I'm considering a mini-split in the upstairs bedroom and bath to cure that problem

Anyhow, long story, but the Trane has NEVER been service, never, ever, in the whole time its been installed ('95).

Charles

 

[davo727]

What do the mini splits have as far as air filters? Does a house with them need additional separate air filtering units?