HVAC guys am I paranoid or is this normal?

[tlmartin84]

I noticed it seemed like it was taking longer to heat a portion of my house. I walked outside and found frost on my unit.

I haven't really noticed it before on either unit. It seemed to work fine through the winter, no crazy bills, etc.

It has also been rainy the last few days with a temperature around 50F.

I called out an HVAC tech and he said it was low on refridgerant and added some. He "guessed" maybe 4 lbs. Well I didn't notice it frosting up last night (It was warmer, 70ish).

Well today I noticed some frost again. It works fine in AC mode, cools good, no frost.

What's your thoughts?

View media item 103419
Oh yeah, what does R410a cost per lb in your neck of the woods?

 

[tlmartin84]

And the unit beside it never has any frost...….

 

[Jim greengo]

Did he find the leak?

 

[tlmartin84]

Didn't look for one...said it may take a week to leak off again or years...

Said it might take 5-6 hours to find it, and it probably wasn't worth the cost...

 

[American Locomotive]

Find a new HVAC guy that doesn't "guess" how much refrigerant he added.

Some frost can be normal for heat pumps, depending on the ambient temperature (which is why many have a defrost cycle). Although at a 50 degree ambient, I don't think it should be frosting.

 

[Robbie B]

Didn't look for one...said it may take a week to leak off again or years...

Said it might take 5-6 hours to find it, and it probably wasn't worth the cost...

I would hope he at least glanced at the easy to see parts but I doubt it. Get a flashlight and look the lines over and see if you see any wet/oily looking spots. If not it’s likely either a Schrader valve in the charge ports or in the coil which would be hard to find without a sniffer. How old is the unit? My unit is ancient and we just had to have Freon added last summer for the first time.


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[tlmartin84]

Find a new HVAC guy that doesn't "guess" how much refrigerant he added.

Some frost can be normal for heat pumps, depending on the ambient temperature (which is why many have a defrost cycle). Although at a 50 degree ambient, I don't think it should be frosting.

He had guages hooked up when he charged it. Said the only way to know how much he put in it was to weigh the cylinder....

 

[tlmartin84]

It's 10 years old. The unit beside it is 13.. no issues.

The ports seem oily but maybe that's from where he just charged it?

He said it was most likely the indoor coil.

Said to try a leak stop agent first?

 

[Robbie B]

My unit I think is close to 25 years old... and before I get flamed it’s going to get replaced...eventually. I wouldn’t put a stop leak in it it’ll just end up stopping the system up and you’ll have to replace the whole thing. If you can see the indoor coil you might see it on it. You might could have someone add dye to it like on a car and then take a up light and inspect it. And the guy should’ve weighed the cylinder. Keeps the techs honest.


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[tlmartin84]

You know, come to think of it, the evaporator tray was oily when I cleaned the coil.

I remember wiping and wiping and never could get it off. I thought it might have been from some previous cleaner residue or something...

 

[u3b3rg33k]

looks normal to me. cold and rainy is perfect conditions for frosting up. just because you're not watching doesn't mean it's not happening.

 

[Jim greengo]

It's 10 years old. The unit beside it is 13.. no issues.

The ports seem oily but maybe that's from where he just charged it?

He said it was most likely the indoor coil.

Said to try a leak stop agent first?

That's every crooked bastards answer to a leak,its probably a bad coil!
I'd say 9 out of every 10 leaks I've come across in the last 30 plus years is loose shrader valves,I can count on my fingers the number of bad A coils I've actually cone across over the years.
Te that clown to pound sand.

 

[Robbie B]

That's every crooked bastards answer to a leak,its probably a bad coil!
I'd say 9 out of every 10 leaks I've come across in the last 30 plus years is loose shrader valves,I can count on my fingers the number of bad A coils I've actually cone across over the years.
Te that clown to pound sand.

There’s also a fair amount of laziness in that “diagnosis” also.


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[yeldogt]

That's every crooked bastards answer to a leak,its probably a bad coil!
I'd say 9 out of every 10 leaks I've come across in the last 30 plus years is loose shrader valves,I can count on my fingers the number of bad A coils I've actually cone across over the years.
Te that clown to pound sand.

I'm with you .....

I'm in the --- if it's not broken don't fix it camp for HVAC. But -- whenever my units are touched they get new shrader valves. Hate them. They are so often the problem and the service guys just fills the system back up ... for it to leak down once he leaves.

They can't find the leak because the gauge is stopping it !

I agree ... find a new service provider.

 

[fitter30]

Pick up a pocket thermometer measure temp difference between supply and return at furnace or air handler at filter and 24" from coil
For Heat Pump in Heat mode:

Starting at 32°F outside temperature, the indoor split (rise) should be 20°F. For each 3°F degrees rise in outside temperature, the split should rise 1°F.

Outside Rise across air:

Temperature: Handler should be:

32°F - 20°F
35°F - 21°F
38°F - 22°F
41°F - 23°F
44°F - 24°F
47°F - 25°F
50°F - 26°F
53°F - 27°F
56°F - 28°F
59°F - 29°F

(1) These are approximate values. Any manufacturer’s data takes precedence over these.

(2) Any supplemental heat strips should be shut off before running the heat pump and measuring the split.

 

[bonneyman]

That's every crooked bastards answer to a leak,its probably a bad coil!
I'd say 9 out of every 10 leaks I've come across in the last 30 plus years is loose shrader valves,I can count on my fingers the number of bad A coils I've actually cone across over the years.
Te that clown to pound sand.

Yep! I'm bettin he didn't have to "guess" at his price for freon.

And he probably adjusts the superheat with his "calibrated finger".

 

[Aileron]

huh? was it a buddy that charged up your system or a service company. He's right, only way to tell is to weight the drum but if he charged you for the refrigerant ,he should have weighed the drum.

 

[Aileron]

I have to disagree with the schrader valve theory. Not saying they are are not leaking but 36 years in industrial commercial , I have rarely walked up to a unit that they been the leak. Have had them not seal after pulling a hose off but not the initial leak. They should have been capped anyway.

 

[justinjoyal]

Please do not call them back... I would have your system checked by (true) professionnals.

 

[American Locomotive]

He had guages hooked up when he charged it. Said the only way to know how much he put in it was to weigh the cylinder....

...exactly my point. Refrigerant isn't free. R410 is about ~$5/lb, R22 is 3-4x that. If he's putting gas in the system and charging you money, he should be weighing how much gas he put in.

Yeah some leaks are hard to find, but if you're losing enough gas fast enough for it to be problematic again in like a week, that's a big leak.

 

[tlmartin84]

...exactly my point. Refrigerant isn't free. R410 is about ~$5/lb, R22 is 3-4x that. If he's putting gas in the system and charging you money, he should be weighing how much gas he put in.

Yeah some leaks are hard to find, but if you're losing enough gas fast enough for it to be problematic again in like a week, that's a big leak.

He charged me 35 for refrigerant....said it cost 50 per lb.....but then he said it was 3-4 lbs...

None of it made any sense.

 

[tlmartin84]

huh? was it a buddy that charged up your system or a service company. He's right, only way to tell is to weight the drum but if he charged you for the refrigerant ,he should have weighed the drum.

Service company!

 

[Aileron]

I started to reply again to this thread but reread the original post and deleted it. I personally think he didn't know what the issue was if there even was one and hit the old needs gas button. Sounds like he may have just topped it with a few ounces. If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with ********.

 

[justinjoyal]

...exactly my point. Refrigerant isn't free. R410 is about ~$5/lb, R22 is 3-4x that. If he's putting gas in the system and charging you money, he should be weighing how much gas he put in.

Yeah some leaks are hard to find, but if you're losing enough gas fast enough for it to be problematic again in like a week, that's a big leak.

I dont know about the US but we sell R410a for 25$/lb.

 

[Jim greengo]

I have to disagree with the schrader valve theory. Not saying they are are not leaking but 36 years in industrial commercial , I have rarely walked up to a unit that they been the leak. Have had them not seal after pulling a hose off but not the initial leak. They should have been capped anyway.

Follow me around servicing residential equipment for a week and see how many lose shrader valves I find before I even put gauges on.

 

[Jim greengo]

...exactly my point. Refrigerant isn't free. R410 is about ~$5/lb, R22 is 3-4x that. If he's putting gas in the system and charging you money, he should be weighing how much gas he put in.

Yeah some leaks are hard to find, but if you're losing enough gas fast enough for it to be problematic again in like a week, that's a big leak.

I'm not aware of anybody selling 410a for $5 a lb,or r22 for $15-20 a lb

 

[BD1]

My local supplier sells 410A 30 pounds around a $100 and R 22 30 pounds for $300. This is contractors price.


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[Jim greengo]

My local supplier sells 410A 30 pounds around a $100 and R 22 30 pounds for $300. This is contractors price.


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Right,but nobody sells it out of there van for anywhere near that price.

 

[danski0224]

That's every crooked bastards answer to a leak,its probably a bad coil!
I'd say 9 out of every 10 leaks I've come across in the last 30 plus years is loose shrader valves,I can count on my fingers the number of bad A coils I've actually cone across over the years.
Te that clown to pound sand.

What is a "loose" Schrader valve?

I have yet to see one that seals 100% of the time- even brand new with Nylog on it. I can put my IR leak sniffer by one and it will always go off.

The cheapie plastic caps should be replaced with metal ones. The finger tight ones with the O ring inside work, but a wrench tight flare cap is better.

When sealed and tightened, the IR leak detector doesn't go off.

King valve caps are another problem- I frequently see those finger tight, and they leak. They need to be tightened with a wrench, usually 1/6 of a turn (says so right on the cap).

After replacing plastic service port caps with metal ones, tightening king valve caps I find A coils to be the next big issue.

Systems with missing service access caps or loose/missing king valve caps WILL leak, sometimes a lot more than you think it will.

I have two systems with small leaks that I cannot find after exhausting every reasonable method to do so, including UV dye. I suspect the condensing unit, but there are no tell tales. I am thinking about wrapping the outdoor unit up in plastic cling wrap in the off season and letting it sit for a day or two or three, then sticking the leak detector inside to see if it goes off. One of the systems could be reading low just from putting hoses on it, and with digital gauges and sensors, a system can be dialed in that close.

It doesn't take too long for me to find most leaks. I can determine if the A coil is leaking quickly, and check obvious and accessible piping joints reasonably quickly.

Small leaks in a condensing unit are NOT easy to find and leaking concealed piping joints are almost impossible.

There is a point where the hourly rate spent chasing leaks may be better applied to system replacement or living with a small annual or 2 season top off unless/until it gets worse.

I have a scale, too.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Didn't look for one...said it may take a week to leak off again or years...

Said it might take 5-6 hours to find it, and it probably wasn't worth the cost...

Find a new HVAC guy that doesn't "guess" how much refrigerant he added.

Some frost can be normal for heat pumps, depending on the ambient temperature (which is why many have a defrost cycle). Although at a 50 degree ambient, I don't think it should be frosting.

HACK!

Demand a refund for services not rendered and find a REAL tech.

Tommy

 

[LS6 Tommy]

...exactly my point. Refrigerant isn't free. R410 is about ~$5/lb, R22 is 3-4x that..

Hook me up with your vendor. Wholesale isn't even that low.

Tommy

 

[Mike007]

Follow me around servicing residential equipment for a week and see how many lose shrader valves I find before I even put gauges on.

Are there no service caps where you work? I wouldn't count on any schrader to hold 100%. And I doubt they are meant to do so long term.

 

[rsanter]

Find a new HVAC guy that doesn't "guess" how much refrigerant he added.

Some frost can be normal for heat pumps, depending on the ambient temperature (which is why many have a defrost cycle). Although at a 50 degree ambient, I don't think it should be frosting.

This is the correct answer.
Find a new HVaC guy.
They don't need to guess, there are methods to sell them what the correct charge is for whatever temp things are at.
Even without a gauge set a good HVAC guy can properly charge a system by taking tempatures of the coil in different spots and of course knowing how these systems work

 

[American Locomotive]

Hook me up with your vendor. Wholesale isn't even that low.

Tommy

https://www.climatedoctors.com/r410a-refrigerant-25lb/

 

[LS6 Tommy]

^^^ Thanks!

Tommy

 

[Aileron]

What is a "loose" Schrader valve?


The cheapie plastic caps should be replaced with metal ones. The finger tight ones with the O ring inside work, but a wrench tight flare cap is better.


.

I try and buy the caps with the thicker hose end gasket. I hate the caps with o rings in them. The hexagonal flare caps work great but I found some over tighten them and when you do need to remove the schrader it rolls the inside of the flare closed a bit and the core wont come out.
Only leak detector I trust is the H10 with a cord. Hated it at first but once you learn how to use it and dial it back, it will home in and pinpoint the smallest leak from walking a row of frozen cases in a grocery store or checking a centrifugal with only 8 psi in it. Shame they quit making it with the cord, I not real fond of the battery version of it however.

 

[truckman5000]

Makes sence if the tech put ....3 4 OF a pound in. Which would be 35 to 45$
Then that would be no real need to find a leak, if the temperature/ pressures were correct.

I would think it would be acouple pounds low if the frost was half way up at 50 deg. outside..

 

[bwringer]

This is the correct answer.
Find a new HVaC guy.
They don't need to guess, there are methods to sell them what the correct charge is for whatever temp things are at.
Even without a gauge set a good HVAC guy can properly charge a system by taking tempatures of the coil in different spots and of course knowing how these systems work

Yep. Fire this tech and his ****** company. Find someone that has some idea what they're doing.

It took me a few tries. Then the owner of the place I was using retired and sold out, and the new owners were the standard-issue scumbags. So I had to start over.


Going back to the title of the thread, unfortunately this sort of incompetence is fairly standard, so it is sort of "normal". It takes a real effort to find the few companies in your area doing things right. They are busy and may seem a little expensive.

 

[Jim greengo]

What is a "loose" Schrader valve?

I have yet to see one that seals 100% of the time- even brand new with Nylog on it. I can put my IR leak sniffer by one and it will always go off.

The cheapie plastic caps should be replaced with metal ones. The finger tight ones with the O ring inside work, but a wrench tight flare cap is better.

When sealed and tightened, the IR leak detector doesn't go off.

King valve caps are another problem- I frequently see those finger tight, and they leak. They need to be tightened with a wrench, usually 1/6 of a turn (says so right on the cap).

After replacing plastic service port caps with metal ones, tightening king valve caps I find A coils to be the next big issue.

Systems with missing service access caps or loose/missing king valve caps WILL leak, sometimes a lot more than you think it will.

I have two systems with small leaks that I cannot find after exhausting every reasonable method to do so, including UV dye. I suspect the condensing unit, but there are no tell tales. I am thinking about wrapping the outdoor unit up in plastic cling wrap in the off season and letting it sit for a day or two or three, then sticking the leak detector inside to see if it goes off. One of the systems could be reading low just from putting hoses on it, and with digital gauges and sensors, a system can be dialed in that close.

It doesn't take too long for me to find most leaks. I can determine if the A coil is leaking quickly, and check obvious and accessible piping joints reasonably quickly.

Small leaks in a condensing unit are NOT easy to find and leaking concealed piping joints are almost impossible.

There is a point where the hourly rate spent chasing leaks may be better applied to system replacement or living with a small annual or 2 season top off unless/until it gets worse.

I have a scale, too.

I keep my shrader valve tool in my pocket,I can get 1.5-2 turns out of most of them on suction line service valve and driers on the units that somebody comes out and adds freon to every year.
I definitely agree on the brass caps with seals in them as a simple insurance policy.

 

[Jim greengo]

Are there no service caps where you work? I wouldn't count on any schrader to hold 100%. And I doubt they are meant to do so long term.

Lots of missing caps or cheap plastic ones,one of the things I agree with lennox on is those brass hex head caps they use,harder for kids to take them off.
My guess is most guys dont want to check them because it cuts in to their big cash cow of selling freon every year.