HVAC guys - does this quote seem reasonable?

[SweetD]

Hi Guys,

Looking for some opinions / reassurance from GJ HVAC pros here on the attached quote. I'm no pro and know very little other than research I have done on-line to date, and talking with a couple of engineering friends. I'm not looking so much for a finite $ answer as I understand that costs can vary widely depending on where you live and who you are talking to, but I am looking for experienced opinions on the overall work to be done.

I have a newer (installed 2006) hydro-air system - at the time we had the A/C "roughed in" and now we are looking to finish it. I had a reputable, (recommended by my contractor friend) local, larger company come out to take a look and get a quote last week.

I've attached the quote here. It's not really broken out into too much detail, but it's the quote for everything all-in. Condensers are called out at 2 ton and 3 ton. They sell Carrier units. SEER rating is not a critical concern for me - based on our relatively limited usage and moderate climate, I'm good with keeping it lower cost on the SEER rating - it would take a long time for me to see my investment returned on high SEER value units.

Basically I have two handlers, one for the basement / master / and main floor of the house, and then the other one in the attic crawlspace for the second floor. Both units are set up for R-22, and the guy strongly recommended that we convert them to R-410A. Is that smart / reasonable to do?

The guy was very professional and they are NATE certified, etc. He said all the right things about purging the system, pressure testing, 500 micron test, etc. The copper lines that are currently roughed in are soldered to the air handlers rather than brazed, and he said they would braze them as that's what's needed for the R-410A.

One other thing, the copper lines were never capped outside the house - just left open to the elements, etc. He said they can use the same lines, they'll just need to clean them up. You'll notice in the quote he calls out an "integrity of mechanical line sets" exclusion. Opinions on that? Is that standard procedure?

Thanks in advance for any opinions from you all that have professional experience in this area.




Dave

 

[Mike007]

Seems cheap to me. Looks like they are trying to do the job right too.

 

[jhelrey]

Means he is covering his **** if your lines are ****.

 

[dbonne]

That is a reasonable price. The converting of evaps to 410A is a very minimal operation, probably changing the oriface(s).

The contractor is covering his *** on the line sets as he did not install them and wants to be covered in case one is kinked, leaks, or has been installed poorly. I would have included an exclusion on the evaps also as the "holding" charge of nitrogen has been let out when the line sets were soldered on. (I like to know for sure there is pressure in new evaps to ensure they have no leaks from factory or shipping, got burned on that one before)

 

[danski0224]

The exclusions seem reasonable.

If the lines have been open since 2006, I'd be concerned about spiders or other insects finding a home in there.

What is the SEER rating of the indoor coils? You don't want a 10 SEER indoor coil mated to a 13 SEER condenser.

How are they converting the indoor coils to work with R410-A?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Carrier *****.
I still use staybrite 8 on 410a units when I install them,never had a problem .
Sounds to me like hes just changing the metering devices on the coils to work with 410 condensors,which is fine if theyre rated for it anyway.

 

[SweetD]

Thanks guys for the replies so far - good stuff.

zmax - why does Carrier ****? It seems like everyone has good and bad opinions about every brand out there (what else is new on the Internet???)...

Thanks,

Dave

 

[Grumpy365]

The exclusions seem reasonable.

If the lines have been open since 2006, I'd be concerned about spiders or other insects finding a home in there.

What is the SEER rating of the indoor coils? You don't want a 10 SEER indoor coil mated to a 13 SEER condenser.

How are they converting the indoor coils to work with R410-A?

A SEER rating is a combined / system rating. There is no such thing as a 14 SEER condenser and a 10 SEER evaporator. Because it the rating is for the SYSTEM.

(at least that's how it was explained to me)

 

[danski0224]

A SEER rating is a combined / system rating. There is no such thing as a 14 SEER condenser and a 10 SEER evaporator. Because it the rating is for the SYSTEM.

(at least that's how it was explained to me)

In some ways, that is true.

However, the minimum SEER in 2006 was not 13 like it is today. Therefore, the OP will have a mismatched system. An assumption is if the OP isn't spending the money on high SEER equipment today, the OP didn't do it in 2006, either.

Fundamentally, it is no different from taking a current production (13 SEER) "dry" condenser and mating it to an existing 10 SEER evaporator coil. It works, but not very well, from an efficiency and equipment longevity standpoint.

 

[Bill1031]

SweetD, If the units are AC only then I think it is a fair price since he also has to change metering device, pads, flush, etc. Heat Pumps? Very good deal for you.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Thanks guys for the replies so far - good stuff.

zmax - why does Carrier ****? It seems like everyone has good and bad opinions about every brand out there (what else is new on the Internet???)...

Thanks,

Dave

Ive fixed a lot of leaking coils and pans on carrier stuff in the past,quality control is iffy with them also in my experience anyway.
Theyre really proud of their parts price wise also,like dealing with lennox or trane.

 

[BD1]

Did he check the test pressure rating on the R 22 evap coil ? Some 22's are only tested to 400 PSI. That 410 A runs at higher pressure.
Some manufactures recommend ''New piping'' when converting from R 22 to 410 A. I would check manufactures manual for info to be safe.

 

[Bobdog]

Sounds about right to me, maybe a little on the cheap side.

Don't know that I would "convert air handlers from r22 to r410a", but if that's what you want to do, go for it.

 

[BF750]

That seems a little cheap.

I would ask the contractor to do a pressure test on the Line sets and coil's, after changing the TX valve, prior to connecting to the new condenser's. Tx valves need to be changed to make it compatible with the 410A. As someone mentioned, if the Line set's were not capped bugs and moisture have been collecting for quite a while now. At a minimum have him put filter dryer's on both, the high and low side.

More than likely the air handlers are 13 seer. If not your going to need new air handlers too. If the company is reputable, they took the model and serial #'s to match the condenser's as best they can.

Good Luck

 

[monkeyspanners]

I don't like the idea of using pipe work that has been left open, especially on new equipment.

 

[brewchief]

What brand and model are the air handlers?

What model are the proposed new units?

Does uncapped outside mean a completely open line or taped up but not brazed?

If they are going to get rid of some soft solder joints inside it would be very easy at that time to blast some nitrogen though the linesets to push any spiders and such out, if it looks like there is a bunch of stuff in there some Rx-11 flush wouldn't be a bad idea.

Moisture will be removed from the lines by pulling a proper vacuum on the system.

It may be entirely possible to get a 13 seer or better rating, in some cases today we may be using the exact same coil with both a 13 and 15 seer unit and get an AHRI match with both.

 

[SweetD]

Thank you all for the sound opinions and advice.

Brewchief: Here is a pic of the unit's specs...tough angle since my beer fridge is right next to it!



Also, I believe he intends to do the nitrogen blast through the lines. Here is a question from me and response from him just today:

"One thing that came up that I would like to ask you about - due to the line sets being exposed for so long to the elements and whatever else, what do you think about installing filter dryers on both the high and low side? And then at some point coming back to remove them after a period of time? Is that something that you would consider as part of the overall standard install?

Great question.

Both system will have liquid line filter driers. We only install suction line driers when we have electrical burnout, they are restrictive.
Prior to start up we pressure test with nitrogen and then run a deep vacuum to 500 microns. If you reach 500 microns you have removed all non-condensibles.
"

Thank you for any further opinions or advice!



Dave

 

[brewchief]

It looks like the air handlers will need new r410a txvs, a quick look at the manufactures instructions shows the txvs are non-bleed style and may need hard start components installed in the condensers. Instructions also state that those air handlers are designed for up to 15 seer condensers, you may not find a listed AHRI match but I wouldn't worry about it.



Sounds to me like they have everything covered pretty good.

FWIW I agree on not adding a suction drier unless it's a burnout.

 

[SweetD]

It looks like the air handlers will need new r410a txvs, a quick look at the manufactures instructions shows the txvs are non-bleed style and may need hard start components installed in the condensers. Instructions also state that those air handlers are designed for up to 15 seer condensers, you may not find a listed AHRI match but I wouldn't worry about it.



Sounds to me like they have everything covered pretty good.

FWIW I agree on not adding a suction drier unless it's a burnout.

Boy I really appreciate your input. I assume you didn't just sleep at a Holiday Inn last night!

If you're in RI at anytime, hit me up for a garage beer!

Dave

 

[metaldad]

I don't like 410.
R22 will be around for your lifetime. A time proven refrigerant.
410 is a rushed to market blended gases that fractionate and requires synthetic oils.
It's lifetime on the market may be in question.
Higher pressures.......... I do not see the advantage.
Cost? jah, the epa has forced 22 thru the roof. It will come down, as has all the other epa 'banned' gases have.
So what?
A properly installed QUALITY unit should not need recharging/topping off in it's lifetime during normal use

 

[jbeenthere]

I don't like 410.
R22 will be around for your lifetime. A time proven refrigerant.
410 is a rushed to market blended gases that fractionate and requires synthetic oils.
It's lifetime on the market may be in question.
Higher pressures.......... I do not see the advantage.
Cost? jah, the epa has forced 22 thru the roof. It will come down, as has all the other epa 'banned' gases have.
So what?
A properly installed QUALITY unit should not need recharging/topping off in it's lifetime during normal use

While a system shouldn't need topped off. many do. R22 will probably triple in price next year. Since its production an import level will be reduced to a lower amount then in 2012.