HVAC recommendations?

[mendozer]

I need a new heat pump/furnace system ASAP because my bryant died at 18 yrs old, heat exchanger corrosion. Got a few bids today which included different servicers pushing Goodman/Daikin, American Standard, Mitsubishi.

I did a lot of research on the parent companies and the shared models between the two companies (Trane vs Am Standard for example). Curious to hear input from anyone here on whether it REALLY makes a difference.

Goodman generally gets good reviews but not great. It's vanilla ice cream. Made in USA and nothing fancy. Others like Trane cost quite a bit more and I'm sure some of it is name inflation, but there also has to be component differences that go into it. Like for my water heater I put in this past summer I went with a brand using stainless heat exchangers vs copper alloy. Cost more from that but I know that's worth it.

thoughts?

 

[American Locomotive]

If you're going heat pump or minisplit, Mitsubishi is basically the gold standard.

The biggest issue with Goodman is that they'll sell to anyone and there are a lot of terrible installers. But find a good installer, and you'll be okay. My complaint about Goodman is a lot of their stuff seems to use thinner sheet metal, and have less serviceability (e.g., screw on panels instead hinged doors)

 

[yelchevelle]

The biggest issue with Goodman is that they'll sell to anyone and there are a lot of terrible installers. But find a good installer, and you'll be okay.

I see this comment A LOT. What does quality installation include? Proper duct size? Properly sealed up duct work?

My system at my house has all kinds of installation problems, but I would like to know what all to look for to correct

 

[Wiz02]

My heat pump died about 18 months ago, as the compressor died and the unit was around 10 years old I decided to go for a new unit. I got a fair number of bids, and ended up have the installation done by an hvac company owned by a neighbor. The American Standard condensing furnace (backup) appears identical to the equivalent Trane. The heat pump is missing some bells and whistles, but I saved a few thousand dollars going with American Standard over the Trane.

Adding a second zone for proper upstairs cooling and fixing the duct work broke the budget, so they just connected the new unit to the existing duct board / long runs of flexible ducts that were installed by the builder 30+ years ago. At least there are plenty of returns.

I switched from electric resistance heat to propane condensing furnace for backup and when the outdoor temperature is under 32F, the house feels warmer than the old heat pump, plus I added a propane powered whole house backup generator a few months later. However, there are no measurable savings from the new heat pump despite it's higher SEER rating than my old one.

It's really hard to say what to look for in an installer. Textbook way to tell is that the installer should do a manual j load calculation, but if you have a tract house that he has seen over and over again, how important is it? I go with reputable local companies that have been in business for years and l have had good service. YMMV

 

[yeldogt]

There are many reasons for the various names. Carrier (main company) and Bryant are the same company and the products are identical except some cosmetic differences that make the thermostats and outdoor compressor look different. Bryant was typically sold by oil dealers and all the Carrier made oil furnaces were Bryant. It gave the oil dealers a dedicated product and they were not on the surface direct competitors w/ Carrier dealers. In other cases it was a merger or buyout and the name was saved because they were a large player in a given area. In other cases companies had names they only sold to builders .... it was a value line. One really has to look at a specific product ... Most times the best units are only given to the main corporate line ... but the differences are all over the map.

At 18 years are you doing a new heat pump -- or just the furnace. Natural gas?

A proper load should always be done as more often than not the units are all oversized and the proper sized unit will make the house more comfortable. The multi speed heat-pumps and modulating furnaces are really for comfort and the need depends on location and house ....

How is the current system performing? Good humidity control in the summer ... even heat and cool in every room. Quite enough.

 

[RoninB4]

Currently replacing/installing a heat pump by myself here in SE Tennessee due to unskilled and/or unscrupulous companies in this rural area. So many considerations to what you're needing to do, all can be solved IF you take time to read/research your application. I went with a Goodman only because I can purchase as a consumer, simplicity for service (by me) and parts availability. Other brands may be better built, more experienced members here could answer that better than I could. Unit sizing is important, yours may/may not be correctly sized. A good installer is critical but if you don't do the calculations you'll never know if the unit/ducts are sized correctly or not. JMO

I did the J, D, and S calculations due to the unit being a throw-on by the bank, foreclosed property and meth-heads stealing the original. The ducting is also critical or the unit won't function properly and perhaps have a shorter working life. Proper size, layout (flexible ducting is often poorly installed) and sealing is critical. Duct insulation seems important enough for me to do this. The ducts here were poorly installed, poorly sealed, and I have to re-do all but the main supply trunk (sheet metal in engineered open truss).

If you need to purchase a new AC (or heat pump) you may want to read about new EPA regulation for 2023 that mandates a new refrigerant for units. Don't know if that allows for left-over stock units using R -410 to be sold or if ALL newly sold units have to use the new refrigerants. The new refrigerants haven't been tested over time in the field so nobody really knows how this can/will affect longevity of critical components. Companies may offer reduced prices for old stock.

Bear in mind that I'm just a retired toolmaker, this is my first HVAC project, and I have no experience prior to last May other than a blower motor or capacitor replacement. There are other members here with far more knowledge/experience than I have and what they post should carry more weight than my experience and opinions. Good luck

 

[danski0224]

However, there are no measurable savings from the new heat pump despite it's higher SEER rating than my old one.

That's because SEER takes the whole thing into account, it isn't just energy consumed by the equipment (EER).

It is much closer to a made up number than reality.

That said, I would bet that the rest of the system is sub-par.

The entity called ductwork has many attributes.

Ability to move air.

Ability to contain said air.

Insulation, if installed outside of the building envelope (bad idea).

Then we get into evaporator coil selection and things like filters that further restrict airflow.

If the ductwork is not up to snuff, you will never get the claimed energy savings, IF the equipment is sized and installed and commissioned properly to start with. This also includes controls. Stuff like a two stage furnace on a single stage thermostat. DIP switch settings wrong on the furnace board.

Many "high SEER" split system combinations rely on an oversized evaporator coil and a massive blower. That makes the ductwork stuff even more important.

 

[Wiz02]

That's because SEER takes the whole thing into account, it isn't just energy consumed by the equipment (EER).

It is much closer to a made up number than reality.

That said, I would bet that the rest of the system is sub-par.

The entity called ductwork has many attributes.

Ability to move air.

Ability to contain said air.

Insulation, if installed outside of the building envelope (bad idea).

Then we get into evaporator coil selection and things like filters that further restrict airflow.

If the ductwork is not up to snuff, you will never get the claimed energy savings, IF the equipment is sized and installed and commissioned properly to start with. This also includes controls. Stuff like a two stage furnace on a single stage thermostat. DIP switch settings wrong on the furnace board.

Many "high SEER" split system combinations rely on an oversized evaporator coil and a massive blower. That makes the ductwork stuff even more important.

@danski0224, I agree with you, about the crappy ductwork, but in my house, short of ripping out the walls, there is no accessibility to the ductwork except for the main trunk in the basement.

For $10k, I can have a second unit/ductwork/zone to cool the upstairs. Might do that someday as the summers are hotter and last longer. The downstairs is fine all year round.


@RoninB4, you made a great point about the refrigerant. "new EPA regulation for 2023 that mandates a new refrigerant"

Nobody seems to know what's going to happen next year

 

[danski0224]

@danski0224, I agree with you, about the crappy ductwork, but in my house, short of ripping out the walls, there is no accessibility to the ductwork except for the main trunk in the basement.

For $10k, I can have a second unit/ductwork/zone to cool the upstairs. Might do that someday as the summers are hotter and last longer. The downstairs is fine all year round.

There's plenty that can be done with the ductwork connected to the equipment, maybe some of the main trunk stuff and equipment selection (coil, filter) to sometimes drastically improve airflow.

It doesn't always mean tearing everything out.

 

[Jim greengo]

Around here we're being told they can continue to sell the 410 equipt that's already built/sitting in warehouses anyway.
Once it's gone they wont be able to make anymore complete units,only parts.
That's in nebraska anyway.

 

[RoninB4]

Around here we're being told they can continue to sell the 410 equipt that's already built/sitting in warehouses anyway.
Once it's gone they wont be able to make anymore complete units,only parts.
That's in nebraska anyway.

-That's part of the reason I bought mine in Sept. and decided to do this myself. Would rather have had professionals do this but the new reg's spooked me to take control and move forward. Hope the new refrigerant situation doesn't turn out like the incandescent light bulb did.

 

[Jim greengo]

-That's part of the reason I bought mine in Sept. and decided to do this myself. Would rather have had professionals do this but the new reg's spooked me to take control and move forward. Hope the new refrigerant situation doesn't turn out like the incandescent light bulb did.

We were kind of hoping they'd be able to make "dry" 410a units for a few years like they did with r22 condensing units,that's not going to happen though from what the supply houses have told me anyway.
If I had the room I'd get 10 2t's,10 2.5t's and 10 3t condensers to sit on ,just so id have them.
I guarantee a lot of people are going to be panicking come spring time.
I haven't seen prices on the new replacement equipt yet,but I'm guessing theres going to be some sticker shock.

 

[fitter30]

Contractor is more important than the brand. Short change the installation even a top of the line unit will have problems. The higher the seer over 18 the sharper the service person has to be. Get into variable refrigerant flow units might need a lap top with the correct program. Systems today are critical charge for.proper operation. Check with your utility companies for rebates and fed tax energy credit.

 

[Wiz02]

Contractor is more important than the brand. Short change the installation even a top of the line unit will have problems. The higher the seer over 18 the sharper the service person has to be. Get into variable refrigerant flow units might need a lap top with the correct program. Systems today are critical charge for.proper operation. Check with your utility companies for rebates and fed tax energy credit.

@fitter30, I agree with you on the criticality of the installer, that's why it took me a while to choose one.
Local power company offered a whopping $200 rebate for my new heatpump. Hardly worth the effort to jump through the hoops of fire required to apply for it

 

[danski0224]

We were kind of hoping they'd be able to make "dry" 410a units for a few years like they did with r22 condensing units,that's not going to happen though from what the supply houses have told me anyway.
If I had the room I'd get 10 2t's,10 2.5t's and 10 3t condensers to sit on ,just so id have them.
I guarantee a lot of people are going to be panicking come spring time.
I haven't seen prices on the new replacement equipt yet,but I'm guessing theres going to be some sticker shock.

Those little loopholes were closed.

No "dry" condensers.

 

[wogamax]

At the cusp of DIY air source or pro-installed geothermal, myself. I confess water to air wouldn't be my choice ($$$) w/o state and federal programs. Our forced air, oil system pushes just under 1000CFM. So, not up to snuff for 3, or more, tons. We've had the same 2'x2' vertical hole-in-the-house proposed. Need 5-6 heat pump tons.

Pricing a couple $4-8,000 multi-zone minis online somehow becomes $35k-47k when pro-quoted. Mini-splits would be ~7 days worth of man-hours. Kind of crazy, but even $10k in rebates leave me a little cold.

Pro or not, the bigger your house, the fewer the people, the more zone control looks appealing. Exotic geo doesn't do zoning much better than any other system controlling those antiquated 24v round & rectangular metal duct dampers. Most want to fatten the return right above the furnace, creating whole-house suction, unbalancing any zone we might try. Geo, or not, ducts lose about a full Coefficient Of Performance. I learned yesterday, New England geo usually gets installed with X,000 watt resistance heat strips, anyway. OK, maybe that's emergency backup only.

At the 11th hour, its currently 5-6 tons of minis before this season gets too deep. COPs of 2X below <=5F aren't great, but especially the hyper-heat units are good for pretty much all their rated btu's down there. Way cheaper than heat strips. I put a 10KW toaster on the EV circuit in the garage, where I'd like to keep the resistance. I guess getting to 10-20F without it, or fossil, is now reasonable. About everything that can be sealed / insulated has been. We went 9" over the joists with cellulose, yesterday. What a beautiful mess.

 

[TheOtherGoose]

I recently had a Daikin system installed. Although basic and not uber-high efficiency, the system performs well and is quiet.
Long warranty, too.

 

[wogamax]

Daiken works efficiently in cold. By the NEEP numbers, they hold 2.5-3.0 COPs @17F where Mitsubishi is generally 2.0-2.5. Doesn't seem like much, but gains in COP mean more at 2 to 3, than 3 to 4, or 4 to 5.

I am not trying to sell air-source, but, conversely, getting hung up on geothermal's ~5 COPs without realizing COP gains are fractional (1/3...1/4...), and not a savings multiplier, can help bring ground source into better perspective. Not saying it's no longer worth it.