HVAC replacement. Your opinions matter!!!

[tolken4]

Not garage only, but I trust you guys/gals

This is purely an opinion thread as I know there are a lot of variables and answers. But, I would greatly appreciate the feedback to help me make my decision.

The facts:
1. 24 year old trane 2.5 ton trane AC died yesterday.
2. My furnace is a 17 year old trane xe80 is still humming along.
Replaced the blower motor myself 3 years ago.

Got alot of bids today to try and figure out what path to take. My options are pretty much as follows.

The options


1. Super cheap = maytag m120 13 seer replace ac only. $1,800 ish
2. Pretty cheap = Maytag m120 13 seer and 80% furnace $2,900 ish

3. MIDDLE of the Road = 14-15 seer Trane, Carrier, or American Standard air conditioners and 80% furnace 6000-8000.

4. As high as i would think about going = Trane, Carrier, or american standard 15 seer with variable blower furnace 870%

If anyone out there is in the bus for any of these models and wants to help me out on what the real cost is on these feel free to chat me on the side. I won't post it.

 

[pseudorealityx]

How much longer do you plan on living where you're living?

 

[snorky18]

If you find out the cost of the unit itself, you'll find that many HVAC companies make a lot more money on the higher SEER Units.

I went through this at my house recently - the 2 ton upstairs unit died, it had always been undersized, ran a heat load calc and it needed a 3 ton.

The estimates ranged from ~$5500 to $13000 for 13 seer up to 18 seer. The price went up steeply based on the seer rating, much more steeply than the cost of the unit.

We ended up going with an Amana 16 seer variable speed blower with 2 stage compressor, and lifetime compressor warranty, and have been really happy with it for the last 6 months. Utility bills have improved as well.

 

[uniballer]

If you find out the cost of the unit itself, you'll find that many HVAC companies make a lot more money on the higher SEER Units.

I went through this at my house recently - the 2 ton upstairs unit died, it had always been undersized, ran a heat load calc and it needed a 3 ton.

The estimates ranged from ~$5500 to $13000 for 13 seer up to 18 seer. The price went up steeply based on the seer rating, much more steeply than the cost of the unit.

We ended up going with an Amana 16 seer variable speed blower with 2 stage compressor, and lifetime compressor warranty, and have been really happy with it for the last 6 months. Utility bills have improved as well.

Did you buy the unit and have someone install it?

 

[mayday0017]

I have bought 2 systems now from this place http://ingramswaterandair.com/ and have gotten great customer service and quick delivery. Price was excellent too, second time I even called and haggled over price a little. Delivered it right to my doorstep, unboxed it, and the guy even wheeled it into my back yard for me.

If nothing else it gives you a good idea of what the equipment cost is and how much of it is labor. I installed my equipment myself and had an HVAC friend give me a hand, doing it over again I would do it 100% myself I find that I pay more attention to detail then a "professional" will.

 

[snorky18]

Did you buy the unit and have someone install it?

No, we went with a large local company, who did a good job, at what I thought was a pretty good price ($7K installed, which included some additional ductwork mods, new lineset, new wiring).

I did very seriuosly condsider assembling my own geothermal system and DIYing it, but it was too big a time commitment (just had a baby too) and learning curve for me to do what I felt like would be a good job. (I'm an engineer and a perfectionist, so sometimes I have more intelligence than sense. I could do a good job, but it ends up costing me far too much time).

 

[JMURiz]

How much longer do you plan on living where you're living?

Best question to answer, if you plan on being there for a long time I'd go all-in. Besides, a variable speed blower is really nice to have. I have a 2-stage and think it's way better than my old one-speed.

 

[Falcon67]

The prices on Ingrams site for the Goodman heat pumps are really cheap compared to previous quotes. 16 SEER combo for under $2400? Dang it.

 

[philjafo]

Im an HVAC tech, been doing it for many years, and yes much of the cost for equipment replacement is labor, but its making up for the service calls where the only charge is for replacing a filter that's been in use for three or four years and is plugged tight. But that's got nothing to do with your questions. I recommend Goodman, amana equipment because I will only sell something I would use in my own home, that said most are ok, only one to really stay away from is carrier, their high efficiency furnaces have secondary heat exchangers that are lined with a plastic coating that always fails after 5 to 7 years. I've seen some fail at 6 months. If you don't believe me just google it, they have lost lawsuits over it and are still making them the same way. Most Goodman dealers have a 10 years parts and labor warranty too. Also depending on where you live I highly recommend getting the highest efficiency furnace and ac you can, fuel and electricity costs don't go down very often, look up true cost calculator or cost to operate calculator. I will try to post a link to a good one but I'm not sure if I can make that work.

 

[philjafo]

http://www.hvacopcost.com/
Here is the link let me know if it doesn't work

 

[pop pop]

I'm 67 and have owned several Carrier units. As far as my service, they are, and always heave been the best, but I would not get the super high eff. furnace. It is a self destruct device. The variable speed units with humidistat are the cat's meow! Highly recommend. Whatever you buy, negotiate a 5 or 10 year parts and labor deal. If they have to stand behind it, they will install it correctly including the vacuum to proper level reather than a hit and a kick.

 

[Falcon67]

Helpful, but when I apply our figures and compare it to the actual bills, it's not real accurate. About $1000 or more too high on the electric heat.

The Goodman heat pump unit I priced today had a lifetime warranty on the compressor and 10 year on parts, etc. Pretty decent IMHO.

 

[tolken4]

Thanks everyone. Currently looking at 3 options now. not sure if posting prices is bad form so I won't. My below numbers are all the difference between the cheapest option and the option mentioned. So, for example, the trane is 2750 more than the 14 seer maytag with variable speed furnace.

But, if anyone reps these and would care to let me know what "fair" pricing is, I would appreciate it. I know a guy has to feed his family and get paid for his work, i just don't want to be taken advantage of. So, to you reps out there, if you can chat me I will keep it to myself.



Maytag
14 SEER with variable speed furnace = cheapest
16 SEER with variable speed furnace = +700

24.5 SEER IQ with variable speed furnace = +2,900

Trane = +2750
Option 2 - Trane 80% Efficient Furnace with 15 SEER R410 Outdoor Unit
(1)
Trane Model TUD1B100A9361A 100,000Btu 80% Efficient XR Gas Furnace with Multi-Speed
Blower Motor
(1)
Trane Model 4TTR5036E1000A 3.0 Ton 36,000Btu 15 SEER R410 Refrigerant XR Outdoor
Condensing Unit
(1)
Trane Model 4TXCB036BC3HCB 3.0 Ton 36,000Btu R410 Indoor Coil

 

[JimL]

Im not a big fan of train equipment. Or some of the local dealers for that matter. Maytag is the cheapest of cheap equipment.

That said.

Thing's you want to look for from the installers.

What kind of air filter you getting? 1"? Media? Eac? Media is the way to go, 4-5" thick. We put them on every system we do.

New line set? New refrigerants, we usually try to replace them, if not flush them good.

What kind of plenum adaptors are you getting? What is going from your new furnace/coil to your old ductwork. They going to have metal made? Fab up on site? Hack in some ductboard? We custom order out transitions/adaptors before we show up to do the work. All metal, Fits together like a puzzle.

Tons of other little things,
new whip/disconnect outside?
New pad for the outdoor unit, plastic/concrete? We use 2" solid concrete pads. Newer bigger units are heavy!
New drain? Condensate pump? New flues if you go 90%

There is tons of people that will slap you a new system in. Will it work, sure. Will you be getting the most you can out of it? Maybe not.

 

[JJGearhead]

I'm a licensed hvac contractor with 20+ years of experience. 70% of the quality is how well it's installed. Stay with the big 3 brands if you can. That would be Carrier, Trane, Lennox. Goodman isn't as bad as some people think but in my opinion their higher seer stuff isn't as reliable. Speaking of seer, anything above 15 seer is probly a waste of money. I say that because unless you're cooling/heating a large area, you wont save enough to get a return on the cost increase. If you had several thousand square feet and a very long and hot summer, then yes a 18 seer a/c would make a huge difference. As far as your furnace is concerned, I would buy 90% afue. Just buy a good carbon monoxide detector for your home no matter which furnace you buy. Most brands have a ten year parts warranty if you by a matched system. As far as labor warranties, Most of the big 3 offer labor warranties for equipment through thier distributors for an extra cost. If the company that installs it goes out of business another dealer for that brand will warranty the equipment and they will be reimbursed by the manufacturer. The ONLY incentive a contractor has for doing it correctly is it's reputation. You'll get better service from a good install on cheap equipment then you will from a bad install on the best equipment. I hope I have helped.

 

[danski0224]

Did anyone do a load calculation? The take measurements and building orientation load calculation, not the look at the existing equipment load calculation. Bonus points if they used a blower door to actually figure out air changes per hour.

If a 2.5 ton AC unit worked for 24 years, why get a 3 ton?

Did anyone check to see if the ductwork is sized properly for the current system?

Did anyone check to see if the ductwork is sized properly for a replacement system?

Did anyone ask you if there are hot/cold rooms? Excess dust? Allergies?

What kind of air filters do you think you need, and have they been sized to the airflow requirements and static pressure drop?

I can 95% guarantee you that your ductwork is undersized right now. I can also 100% guarantee you that higher efficiency furnaces and AC units require *more* airflow than the stuff that is replaced.

If your biggest concern is "fair pricing" info on the side, then you are in for a surprise. Good luck.

 

[pseudorealityx]

I can 95% guarantee you that your ductwork is undersized right now. I can also 100% guarantee you that higher efficiency furnaces and AC units require *more* airflow than the stuff that is replaced.

I'm with you on the current ductwork is likely undersized. You lost me with the idea that a newer unit "requires" more air. Can you explain?

 

[danski0224]

I'm with you on the current ductwork is likely undersized. You lost me with the idea that a newer unit "requires" more air. Can you explain?

Higher SEER AC combos only work with increased airflow. Check out the equipment matches. It is usually a big evaporator coil matched to a big blower.

Higher AFUE rated furnaces also require more CFM per delivered BTU.

 

[JJGearhead]

Higher SEER AC combos only work with increased airflow. Check out the equipment matches. It is usually a big evaporator coil matched to a big blower.

Higher AFUE rated furnaces also require more CFM per delivered BTU.

I disagree. You still only need 400cfm per ton. Some manufacturers use a larger air handler on higher seer equipment because they want the increased coil size. You're supposed to lower the blower speed. If you use much more than 400cfm per ton you lose latent heat capacity. Likewise if you use much less than 400 you remove more latent heat but not as much sensible. I absolutely agree with you on the sizing with a load calc and on the undersized ductwork.

 

[brihvac]

Im an HVAC tech, been doing it for many years, and yes much of the cost for equipment replacement is labor, but its making up for the service calls where the only charge is for replacing a filter that's been in use for three or four years and is plugged tight. But that's got nothing to do with your questions. I recommend Goodman, amana equipment because I will only sell something I would use in my own home, that said most are ok, only one to really stay away from is carrier, their high efficiency furnaces have secondary heat exchangers that are lined with a plastic coating that always fails after 5 to 7 years. I've seen some fail at 6 months. If you don't believe me just google it, they have lost lawsuits over it and are still making them the same way. Most Goodman dealers have a 10 years parts and labor warranty too. Also depending on where you live I highly recommend getting the highest efficiency furnace and ac you can, fuel and electricity costs don't go down very often, look up true cost calculator or cost to operate calculator. I will try to post a link to a good one but I'm not sure if I can make that work.

Aint this the truth with Carrier/Bryant. When you try to turn one in for warranty, they make you buy the new one and when they receive your old one, they will decide wether to reinburse you.

 

[danski0224]

I disagree. You still only need 400cfm per ton. Some manufacturers use a larger air handler on higher seer equipment because they want the increased coil size. You're supposed to lower the blower speed. If you use much more than 400cfm per ton you lose latent heat capacity. Likewise if you use much less than 400 you remove more latent heat but not as much sensible. I absolutely agree with you on the sizing with a load calc and on the undersized ductwork.

Sometimes, the blower speed can't be cranked down enough... or the combination works on AC but grossly oversizes the furnace. Then there is the static pressure drop across the coil.

At least the manufacturers seem to be offering more versatility in variable speed blowers and adjustments, but all that stuff helps only when the static pressure readings are taken and referenced against the fan charts.

In the end, the high efficiency equipment only delivers when it is installed properly.

Recently, California had a utility rebate program for the installation of energy efficient equipment. That program was suspended when it was determined that the new energy efficient equipment actually used more electricity due to improper installation.

But, none of this really helps to determine the "fair" price of a unit. Anyone can install one

 

[thooks]

Uh.....

NOTHING will beat the stuff put out by the mini-split manufacturers as far as durability, efficiency, sound and overall performance.

It's not cheap and easy.

I'll never put anything 'from the big 3' in any house I ever live in again...

 

[pseudorealityx]

Uh.....

NOTHING will beat the stuff put out by the mini-split manufacturers as far as durability, efficiency, sound and overall performance.

It's not cheap and easy.

I'll never put anything 'from the big 3' in any house I ever live in again...

Of the 4 items you picked out...

durability
efficiency
sound
overall performance

Mini-splits are actually ahead of the pack in exactly 1 of those items, efficiency.


They haven't been around long enough to determine how durable they are. On the other hand, probably half the people on this forum have had a furnace or air handler that lasted at 15 years.

You can't compare sound since you can duct standard A/C systems. If we're talking the recessed mini-split stuff, then it's about equal. It'll come down to duct design and diffuser/grille choices.

Overall performance? No idea what that entails. They typically have pretty shallow coils, and can't do a lot of dehumidification when running at full cfm. Also, most are the wall mounted types, and they are terrible for anything beyond a single room/area, since they aren't ducted. They also don't have great filtration options because they don't have much in the way of external static. And unless you use a ducted example, there's no way to provide ventilation air.

 

[pseudorealityx]

Higher SEER AC combos only work with increased airflow. Check out the equipment matches. It is usually a big evaporator coil matched to a big blower.

Higher AFUE rated furnaces also require more CFM per delivered BTU.

I disagree.

For example... Carrier's 19 SEER air conditioners have matched equipment running as low as 350 cfm/ton on high speed. That's the exact same as the code minimum 13 SEER equipment.

19 SEER A/C: http://www.docs.hvacpartners.com/idc/groups/public/documents/techlit/25hna9-2pd.pdf

13 SEER A/C: http://www.docs.hvacpartners.com/idc/groups/public/documents/techlit/24abb3-2pd.pdf

 

[Wholesum]

All the studies I have seen show that more than half of the AC units in houses are grossly oversized for the space and the area where the house is located. The builder thinks that bigger is better and they don't have to worry about a professional design for each house layout they build. With an oversized AC unit it will run shorter periods of time and be a lot less efficient in both cooling and moisture removal. An AC takes 10 minutes to be at peak efficiency and if it goes 5 minutes and then cycles off it never reaches this stage.

Heating furnaces are similar in that a variable speed fan can keep the air circulating better and minimize dead zones that feel cold. When we upgraded our furnace to a two stage burner with a variable speed fan we found we could set the thermostat 3-4 degrees lower and the house was more comfortable than before with the old furnace.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Aint this the truth with Carrier/Bryant. When you try to turn one in for warranty, they make you buy the new one and when they receive your old one, they will decide wether to reinburse you.

here's the laminated steel hx on my 11 year old 90 plus bryant propane furnace. I read that one dealer said everyone of the bryants he installed with propane failed.
anyway I started checking into that warranty and seemed like it was a bunch of run around and bs and the fact that it was January...........I just went to the wholesale and bought a new 100k comfortmaker furnace.

ain't suppose to look like that............air is suppose to flow thru them there slots, no wonder the roll switch out was tripping.

 

[Hades12]

here's the laminated steel hx on my 11 year old 90 plus bryant propane furnace. I read that one dealer said everyone of the bryants he installed with propane failed.
anyway I started checking into that warranty and seemed like it was a bunch of run around and bs and the fact that it was January...........I just went to the wholesale and bought a new 100k comfortmaker furnace.

ain't suppose to look like that............air is suppose to flow thru them there slots, no wonder the roll switch out was tripping.

I have picked up two in the last few week that look just like that. and got in an outdoor package unit that has a hole in the gas heat exchanger.

 

[Jackfre]

Of the 4 items you picked out...

durability
efficiency
sound
overall performance

Mini-splits are actually ahead of the pack in exactly 1 of those items, efficiency.


They haven't been around long enough to determine how durable they are. On the other hand, probably half the people on this forum have had a furnace or air handler that lasted at 15 years.

You can't compare sound since you can duct standard A/C systems. If we're talking the recessed mini-split stuff, then it's about equal. It'll come down to duct design and diffuser/grille choices.

Overall performance? No idea what that entails. They typically have pretty shallow coils, and can't do a lot of dehumidification when running at full cfm. Also, most are the wall mounted types, and they are terrible for anything beyond a single room/area, since they aren't ducted. They also don't have great filtration options because they don't have much in the way of external static. And unless you use a ducted example, there's no way to provide ventilation air.

I installed my first mini-split in 1978. They have actually been around for a long long time. We are about the only people in the world foolish enough to blow air through tubes...that leak like sieves. CA, OR and NV now require that prior to changing our a furnace you must do a pressure test on your duct system. Not sure what other states are doing. DOE says that you will loose between 18-42% of your energy in duct leakage. A 90% furnace with a 70% duct system is...hmmm, 63% day one. Prior to doing anything equipment wise I would see if the duct system can support new equipment. Poor ductwork is the dirty little secret the unitary equipment manuf don't want to talk about. They can put all the technology in the box they want. They simply cannot deliver it. Check your ductwork.

I heat and cool my home with a combination of Rinnai Energysavers and Fujitsu mshp. De-hu is not a problem here, but when I living in MA it was dreadful. MSHP's are inverter controlled, or true variable speed. They are designed to attack the latent heat (duhu) first and the sensible heat (temp) second. They will do this best at low speed and they will then decide what speed they need to run at to provide the best comfort.

Audio wise, I will take a mshp over a ducted system any day. I have a 12kbtu (25 seer/12hspf) in the living room and consider it very quiet. Keep in mind that the 25 seer is "net to the space" with no duct losses, so you are actually getting that rating.

The mshp provides the best zone control of any system I've seen. My system upstairs is not turned on until a couple hrs before bed time. Then I put it in either fan mode (most times) or quiet mode (for very hot nights) and in a word, it is great. I turn the downstairs system off when we go to bed. They are incredibly efficient when they are not running.

A mshp, being variable speed, will in fact project its air into other spaces as it will not shut down very often. Yes, you have to position the evaporator properly to do this, but it does work. Where you have problems with a single unit heating adjoining spaces is with the old single stage, on/off units

I would take a long look at your whole system prior to deciding what you are going to do. A mshp system to do the whole house may well cost more, but will make you very comfortable and save you money in the long run.

 

[danski0224]

here's the laminated steel hx on my 11 year old 90 plus bryant propane furnace. I read that one dealer said everyone of the bryants he installed with propane failed.
anyway I started checking into that warranty and seemed like it was a bunch of run around and bs and the fact that it was January...........I just went to the wholesale and bought a new 100k comfortmaker furnace.

ain't suppose to look like that............air is suppose to flow thru them there slots, no wonder the roll switch out was tripping.

Looks like improper combustion to me.

Did/does that one dealer own a combustion analyzer, and does he know how to use it?

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Looks like improper combustion to me.

Did/does that one dealer own a combustion analyzer, and does he know how to use it?

no thats the exact problem that bryant/carrier have been having with the laminated steel heat exchangers the lamination has been separting from the steel and for some reason what ever is in propane seems to make it happen even faster............they why they lost a huge law suit over this.

I should add that its a little late for testing when it looks like that. I did not install that furnace. When we bought the house 6 years ago it seemed to be working fine, I didn't do anymore than give it a visual, in hind sight that would have been the time to test it.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Looks like improper combustion to me.

Did/does that one dealer own a combustion analyzer, and does he know how to use it?

i don't know about that dealer I just came accross that on the internet when I was doing some research on the problem after it showed up.
so who knows

 

[brewchief]

We combustion test on all of our tuneups and you will have one of the carrier/bryant/paynes that's perfect one year and failed the next, the problems are worse on propane then natural gas but we see it on both.
Replacing them *****, you get a pile of parts instead of a assembled heat exchanger, also takes up to six months to get credit back on the parts,

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

[pseudorealityx]

I installed my first mini-split in 1978. They have actually been around for a long long time. We are about the only people in the world foolish enough to blow air through tubes...that leak like sieves. CA, OR and NV now require that prior to changing our a furnace you must do a pressure test on your duct system. Not sure what other states are doing. DOE says that you will loose between 18-42% of your energy in duct leakage. A 90% furnace with a 70% duct system is...hmmm, 63% day one. Prior to doing anything equipment wise I would see if the duct system can support new equipment. Poor ductwork is the dirty little secret the unitary equipment manuf don't want to talk about. They can put all the technology in the box they want. They simply cannot deliver it. Check your ductwork.

Agreed that ductwork in a LOT of residential applications *****. But ductwork is also the part of the system that allows flexibility within a system.

I heat and cool my home with a combination of Rinnai Energysavers and Fujitsu mshp. De-hu is not a problem here, but when I living in MA it was dreadful. MSHP's are inverter controlled, or true variable speed. They are designed to attack the latent heat (duhu) first and the sensible heat (temp) second. They will do this best at low speed and they will then decide what speed they need to run at to provide the best comfort.

What I bolded is marketing BS and you know better. MSHP, standard DX unit, chilled water units, etc.... ALL do the exact same thing assuming they run a wet coil. They take the initial conditions of the air, and then do a straight line (on a psych chart) from that initial point to the saturated surface temperature of the cooling coil. They do both sensible and latent at the same time. You cannot do latent without sensible. The only thing you can do if you don't want sensible is set up a reheat loop to bring that temp back up. Various ways to do this. The MSHP just has the advantage of being able to run at lower volumes than standard DX so you get dehumidification for longer periods of time between satisfying the t-stat, and it can vary that speed. And the inverters let you save a boatload of energy due to the affinity laws.

Audio wise, I will take a mshp over a ducted system any day. I have a 12kbtu (25 seer/12hspf) in the living room and consider it very quiet. Keep in mind that the 25 seer is "net to the space" with no duct losses, so you are actually getting that rating.

Anecdotal evidence doesn't really prove a thing regarding 'sound'. You could design a duct routing that would be essentially silent, and not have an ugly box hung on the wall.

The mshp provides the best zone control of any system I've seen. My system upstairs is not turned on until a couple hrs before bed time. Then I put it in either fan mode (most times) or quiet mode (for very hot nights) and in a word, it is great. I turn the downstairs system off when we go to bed. They are incredibly efficient when they are not running.

My problem with zone control is that with non-ducted units, you need a unit in every separated space if you want it conditioned. Sure, the control IN the room the unit is in is very good. But in the room on the other side of the wall/door.... nothing.

A mshp, being variable speed, will in fact project its air into other spaces as it will not shut down very often. Yes, you have to position the evaporator properly to do this, but it does work. Where you have problems with a single unit heating adjoining spaces is with the old single stage, on/off units

Which is an installation problem, not an equipment problem.

I would take a long look at your whole system prior to deciding what you are going to do. A mshp system to do the whole house may well cost more, but will make you very comfortable and save you money in the long run.

It MIGHT save you money. People need to look at everything and do a cost analysis. The various Mini-split systems will use less energy, but there's trade offs, and they go beyond the first cost.

 

[Jackfre]

Ductwork in most existing homes is sub-standard according to the DOE. Current specs for new homes in CA is no more than 6% leakage. In Oregon on a retro-fit you can have 15% leakage. Let's see, 95% furnace at .85= 80.75% high efficiency system. First step in any replacement of equipment is to analyze the distribution system. Most states probably do not have these testing requirements but the national implications for energy consumption/waste due to duct losses is enormous. Test the ductwork!

Psych, you are correct in the Psych chart. All I will say is I know how they work and when in a really humid start up, my unit will not run on high speed right away. It will run at a lower speed and the water just pours out of the thing. Yes it is doing latent and sensible at the same time but the lower speed allows excellent de-hu and the unit does run on low first. I cannot say where it crosses the line to go to high, but it darned sure works.

You and I can go round and round on this. Most of the points we discussed are subjective. I am not put off by having a mshp evap on the wall(s) of my home. I consider them to be very quiet in my home. I think they were a a wise investment in comfort. I find the air distribution, while not perfect, perfectly acceptible. You make a living primarily with ducted systems and I will readily acknowledge that with the right guy doing the install they can work very well. In 48 yrs in the business I've just seen so much junk, as have you, that I think the mshp should be a part of every customers analysis on equipment replacement. Essentially it comes down to not perpetuating the mistakes of the original low-cost bidder.

 

[pseudorealityx]

Psych, you are correct in the Psych chart. All I will say is I know how they work and when in a really humid start up, my unit will not run on high speed right away. It will run at a lower speed and the water just pours out of the thing. Yes it is doing latent and sensible at the same time but the lower speed allows excellent de-hu and the unit does run on low first. I cannot say where it crosses the line to go to high, but it darned sure works.

The unit runs at a lower speed because it's making sure that it can get the discharge temp low enough to really condense out the water. Gives the air more time to cool down as it's going slower over the coils.

You and I can go round and round on this. Most of the points we discussed are subjective. I am not put off by having a mshp evap on the wall(s) of my home. I consider them to be very quiet in my home. I think they were a a wise investment in comfort. I find the air distribution, while not perfect, perfectly acceptible. You make a living primarily with ducted systems and I will readily acknowledge that with the right guy doing the install they can work very well. In 48 yrs in the business I've just seen so much junk, as have you, that I think the mshp should be a part of every customers analysis on equipment replacement. Essentially it comes down to not perpetuating the mistakes of the original low-cost bidder.

a) I make my living by deciding what type of HVAC units to provide as well as distribution design, if needed. I've used hundreds of ductless splits in applications that suit their strengths.

b) You're quite a bit older... I mean 'more experienced' than I am. So I bet you've seen more junk than I have.

 

[6768rogues]

I have Carrier equipment that has performed fairly well for 18 years. Carrier likes sophisticated controls and throws on lots of stuff that is not really needed. Those extra things have been the only problems. For that reason, I wouldn't buy a Carrier again; I would buy something simpler.

 

[philjafo]

Rogues, 18 years old when is the last time you have had the heat exchanger checked on that? Not just with one of those fancy bore cameras either, they have their place but its easy to miss stuff with them. To do a real inspection the whole thing needs to be removed from the furnace. A lot of techs don't do that because its a lot of work, but its the only way to be sure older furnaces are still safe. With carrier equipment we start pulling he at 8 years old and have found bad ones on younger then that.

 

[danski0224]

Yeah, those borescopes are not really something to rely on.

The cheapies (most consumer grade versions) do not have the resolution to see fine detail. The HD versions are quite a bit more and an infrared HD imaging camera is even more, and you still can't see but 20% of the heat exchanger.

Can't really evaluate what is going on without a combustion analyzer.