HVAC Screwing

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

I agree all these guys deserve a living wage. How much that should be is debatable. The guy that was here to look at the furnace still received his service call of $95.00 For a drive over and being here 15 minutes. Really, I have never made that kind of money. It is a free market society. I am a professional musician. I get $20.00 for a 1/2 hour lesson. I do gigs that might pay $150.00 that would include a couple rehearsals. I have years of education, thousands of dollars in instruments, I suppose I should raise my rates, but then I would get no work. If consumers would realize how they are being raped then things would change. The problem is, people want and need heat, and are willing to pay whatever. Music is not a necessity, so little monetary value is placed on it.

They deserve a living wage. So yes we should outsource everything we do because people deserve a living wage. Brakes? Forget it, mechanics deserve a living wage. Painting your deck? Painters need a living wage, so forget that. So do lawnmowers, etc. Bathtub stopped up? Don't buy a drain snake, you're putting a plumber out of business! He needs to feed his family. He deserves a living wage.

Wipe your own ***? Maybe if we created a new class of professional ***-wipers we wouldn't have so many problems in the country!

 

[Brian_WK]

When doing HVAC/R work the only parts we wouldn't sell OTC are Gas valves. Elctronic boards once they have been installed we no longer take them back. Everything else got the same sliding scale mark-up 200% on anything under 5$ / 75% $5-100 / 25% $100 - $1000 / 15% $1000+. That was anything that was stocked on the shelves. Order in was different and usually less but also had freight involved. Having a van shop full of parts is not cheap and when no one is buying said parts. Yes if you don't mind waiting for the part or knowing the quality of said part until it gets to you and you are comfortable installing it go ahead and buy online and save the money.
Some places are worse then others for the prices they charge just like any other product, store, industry, business or trade.
Scenarios:
1.If you were to call me up and say that your furnace isn't working come fix it that price can vary alot.
2.If you were to call me up and said the your blower motor isn't working its a Model X Serial Z and is in a equipment room in your basement I could give you a price quote over the phone that would be within 10$ of the actual bill and when I could have the work done.
3. You called me up and needed part number XXXX whats the price? Dollar amount right down to the cent.

Most HVAC techs have seen every furnace and know them inside and out down to wire colors. So a simple job that might take them 15 minutes to diagnose and 5 to repair (say a blower capacitor) Might take you 3+ hours of internet searching to fix it (not sure what people did before the internet have it fixed and then not ***** about the price on the internet or did scammers just appear once the internet was invented?) Then another hour looking for the parts then waiting for parts if they ordered on the internet then 1 hour to install them and hope that was the only problem. You now wasted $100's in your time and may or may not have a working furnace a few days later.

So on your experience it sounds like you did scenario 1 but could have done scenario 2 and called around for an installed price. Sounds like Scenario 3 was tried but you had issues. I never worked on the wholesale side but I still buy personal stuff from them all the time must be a regional thing.

Brian

 

[Gerald O]

You think HVAC service prices are a ripoff?
How about doctors? $2,500 bill for 15 minutes and 3 stitches (that didn't hold). Squirted some superglue on the failed repair job for $2 and good to go...

 

[justanengineer]

I've never understood the business model that turns away customers eager to purchase a product. I've had the same experience with multiple supply house type establishments. I wonder if it's a union backed policy.

The business model is simple - its a warehouse based business, not a retail business and the storefront is only there for current customers' walk-in emergencies. They make their money by having warehouse staff that can quick turn supplies for a decent markup. Most businesses have accounts directly with manufacturers and can get things cheaper in a week or so, but when you NEED something within a day or two you call or order online from the industrial houses and pay for (usually) next day delivery. If you cant wait til the next morning you do a walk-in, most customers usually wont however as theyve got businesses to run and other matters to attend to. The storefront/counter aspect is a money loser compared to the warehouse and delivery drivers which is the bread&butter aspect of their business. Its not a union thing, nothing protectionist about it, and in reality many of the local employees wont care, some like Fastenal/Grainger pretty commonly will sell to Joe Public.

 

[CKS1955]

Try substituting the words "Capitalism", " Free Market" or "Supply and Demand" for "theft"...
Tommy

Free market would imply that anyone can purchase the same part for the same price. The HVAC supply house is controlled by the HVAC installers. This is not a free market, but that is were the internet is the great equalizer.

Jay

 

[justanengineer]

Free market would imply that anyone can purchase the same part for the same price. The HVAC supply house is controlled by the HVAC installers. This is not a free market, but that is were the internet is the great equalizer.

What youre suggesting only occurs under strict government control, which by definition isnt a free market. Under a free market system the business owners are free to set up and run their business according to any model or in any manner that they wish, target any subset of customers, and the customers are free to shop at the one they see as best. In this case, the supply house owners are free to follow their warehouse-based model targeting a particular customer base (contractors) and not forced to follow some generic retail model, by definition THAT IS a free market economy. Despite the entitled attitudes of snowflakes outside their customer base, the supply houses are controlled by their owners and there is no great conspiracy against yuppie homeowners, if HD/Lowes/Amazon provided more value to their customers then the supply houses wouldnt be in business.

 

[PWC Repair]

I've been working behind the counter at an HVAC supply house for 15 years. We are rural and also the only one for a 50 mile radius. Items are not priced which confuses people. We are a wholesale house and deal with contractors that have accounts. I have different pricing on most things; contractor (far those in the trade), business (for schools,hotels, hospital,etc with maintenance men), and cash (for Joe public). We will not sell equipment,compressors, or refrigerant to anybody that does not hold a license. We do not special order any parts for Joe public without full payment up front. And we have a sign up stating no returns on electrical items. I have some contractors that work off a flat rate book which is stupid expensive to the homeowner. I also have a few out to make a living and not a killing. Then there are a few whom I would not recommend to a homeowner. I'm sure you'll have that everywhere. All that being said, I'm happy to help a homeowner diy and offer advice if I can. I spent a couple hours 2 weeks ago laying out a full duct system with materials list for a diy that just built a new house. I believe it all comes down to company policy or attitude of the man behind the counter.

 

[bdk1976]

After dealing with HVAC companies several years ago when getting a new heat pump setup and some associated issues with it afterwards, I've added them in with lawyers, politicians, and used car salesmen in my list of people I avoid dealing with. This feeling has only grown as I hear from others' experiences. Of course, most people don't even realize how badly they are being screwed.

Some (note - not all) of the actual guys doing the work have been great, but the salespeople, management, etc. I've dealt with in the industry seem slimy to me. I also suspect some 'funny business' amongst the major players - at least in this area.

Most of this stuff it not rocket science, regardless of how the industry may portray it. There are plenty of online HVAC suppliers that will sell you what you need if you do some of the work on your own (research part numbers, etc.)

 

[469 runner]

Yes, bdk1976, I totally agree. People want heat, and get taken advantage of by a conspiring industry. Though, I received my new motor that I paid $120.00 for. Installed it in a half hour and all is well. I think this is why we are all on this forum is to educate one another. I love being in charge of my life as well as my finances, and not feeling like a victim. So, another lesson learned. There are obviously some things homeowners can't take on from a practicality standpoint, just too much labor involved, logistics, etc... Roofing comes to mind, cement work, but this is one that really is very easy for homeowners to handle and I think that is what the industry is afraid of.

 

[Showkey]

Free market would imply that anyone can purchase the same part for the same price. The HVAC supply house is controlled by the HVAC installers. This is not a free market, but that is were the internet is the great equalizer.

Jay

Agree ^^^^^^^^^ remember when car and motorcycle dealers had a captive parts market.........full retail plus on parts. Well the Internet as turned that around with factory parts 50-90% off retail. There are many dealers willing to sell at a 20% mark up all day long with free shipping to their internet customer.

Same thing is happening in HVAC with firms like:

https://www.alpinehomeair.com

Just one company of many willing to change the industry. If warranty becomes an problem which it has not so far.........I can buy a whole new furnace for parts delivered to my door for $700

 

[PeterT]

I buy all my HVAC stuff on the internet

 

[Falcon67]

This does not apply to the OP's situation at all. He was not trying to buy the parts cheaper and then have a tech do the install. He was doing the work himself and simply needed a basic part. His situation is the equivalent of needing to change the brakes on your car and when you go into NAPA for the parts they tell you that you need to take it to the dealer....

Just because you are skilled in a trade does not mean you can charge as you please as punishment that the client doesn't know your craft... The free market typically weeds those businesses out pretty quick.

The other side of it is that you buy that expensive HVAC part, or even a small one, you are self warranty. The mfg won't stand behind the install because you're not a trained tech. That's fine if it's like the old Carrier unit in our old house that was a 1976 model, no warranty on anything anyway.

As far as the brake analogy, try DIY AC work - they will sell you the compressor, but a lot of the "fine print" in the box may say no warranty unless you take it to a certified tech for system evac and charge, and sometimes they will require the shop install a pre-filter on the compressor. Been there, done that.

anyway, it's the same here - you want an HVAC part, you buy it off the net. Supply houses will say flat "no" unless you are licensed in the trade.

 

[Woodman920]

Order it on line. Keep looking. There's supply houses that sell retail too.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[Woodman920]

I'm thinking liability has a lot to do with it in today's litigious society.

No. It's market control.

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[jeepman1]

I read this thread yesterday, and thought about it today while I was doing yard work. I am an hvac tech (for the last 20 yrs) and also i talked to a coworker that was on call today, about this situation.

the following are some ramblings and thoughts about our trade and its comparison to the auto industry that myself and my coworker came up with.

first of all, most people (household or family) have one heating appliance and one cooling appliance. but they have 3 or 4 cars.... so volume is huge here. also we guessed that on average a furnace or air conditioner will break every 3 to 4 yrs. where cars have more moving parts and will break more often, especially older cars. plus its cool to rebuild older cars.... hvac equipment just doesn't look that cool with a new paint job and 22" wheels....

I live in a town of 22000 people. in my town there are 2 hvac supply houses (each repping their own brand of equipment) two plumbing supply houses and one refrigeration supply house that also reps some hvac stuff.... these are the only supply houses in a 50 mile radius.... and remember each supply house will have some univerasal parts, then mostly stock oem parts for the brand they carry......in the same radius are at least 10 new car dealers... in my town alone are 5 auto parts stores.. plus remember each dealer will sell parts over the counter. also note that the 5 auto parts stores specialize in carrying common parts for every make.

my point here is this is a supply and demand thing... there is no "deal" that has been made behind the scenes that keeps homeowners from buying parts over the counter..... the demand is just not there.... we live in a free country... if it was profitable somebody would have done it... as has been stated the supply houses I deal with are not setup to charge tax...

remember, trying to buy parts from a contractor is the equivilant to trying to buy them from the local independent auto mechanic. more than likely he is already busy selling parts and labor, stopping to sell "just parts" over the counter is a pay cut.. plus most good mechanics/techs are busier than they want to be..... selling parts over the counter is just less profitable, this may sound bad, but I promise you they are in business to make money....

the company I currently work for will not sell parts over the counter, my bosses stance is that there is too much liability (meaning the customer could hurt themselves) also in my state we are required to have a epa 608 license and a mechanical license.... the mechanical license is our lively hood and could be lost just like a doctor could loose his license. technically if a customer hurt themselves trying to install a part we sold them they could file a complaint with the state and we could loose our license. I'm sure it sounds funny, but it is real!!
the company I used to work for would sell any parts including equipment over the counter.... it was all $$$$ to them.

lastly I don't really have a stance on the subject...I get it, I do lots of work around my house, in fact I'm getting ready to have a spray foam guy insulate the basement of my house and the only reason I am having it done is because I don't have a spray foam machine in the 13 years ive lived here it is the only thing ive hired out for except roofing. ive added onto my garage, built sheds, patios, porches, redone bathrooms.... you name it ive done it.

I guess the bottom line is in most areas I don't think there is enough volume in hvac to have a dedicated "auto zone" or "advance auto parts" but there is plenty of room on the internet for places like "amazon" and "supply house.com".....

 

[Git]

the company I currently work for will not sell parts over the counter, my bosses stance is that there is too much liability (meaning the customer could hurt themselves)

Seriously - do you know how stupid that sounds?

I can get a 608 license by taking an online, OPEN BOOK test and spending $25

https://www.epatest.com/608/

So an auto parts store shouldn't sell me an oil filter because I may hurt myself installing it?

Call it what you want, it is just the trade trying to protect themselves because if the general public actually figured out how badly they were getting ripped off - the 'supply house' would be out of business. As it is now - it is just a matter of time

 

[James-W]

Seriously - do you know how stupid that sounds?

I can get a 608 license by taking an online, OPEN BOOK test and spending $25

https://www.epatest.com/608/

So an auto parts store shouldn't sell me an oil filter because I may hurt myself installing it?

Call it what you want, it is just the trade trying to protect themselves because if the general public actually figured out how badly they were getting ripped off - the 'supply house' would be out of business. As it is now - it is just a matter of time

Many years ago the store I worked at sold a customer a picture tube because he came in and wanted to buy one. We tried to talk him out of it, but he insisted he wanted to buy it and install it himself. So, we reluctantly sold him the picture tube he wanted to fit the set he had.

Long story short, he dropped it while trying to install it and it imploded causing numerous pieces of flying glass to cut him in several places. He had to go to the hospital and get his wounds taken care of. He then tried to sue the store for damages to himself, pain and suffering, and I am not sure just what all else was in the lawsuit.

I am not sure how it all turned out, the store had a lawyer they used for such things and I don't really know the final outcome. But the point is, it isn't BS when people say there is a liability to selling people certain things. I am not talking about a motor specifically causing a liability issue, only that these days it is wise to be careful of what you sell and to whom you sell things to.

 

[Brian_WK]

Seriously - do you know how stupid that sounds?

I can get a 608 license by taking an online, OPEN BOOK test and spending $25

https://www.epatest.com/608/

So an auto parts store shouldn't sell me an oil filter because I may hurt myself installing it?

Call it what you want, it is just the trade trying to protect themselves because if the general public actually figured out how badly they were getting ripped off - the 'supply house' would be out of business. As it is now - it is just a matter of time

EPA 608 Type One, the one online open book is for appliances 5 pounds or less, Will not cover you for Type 2 and 3 Which includes 410a and all home HVAC (mini splits fall under high pressure 410a). The 608 type 2 is what is needed for residential HVAC and is a proctored exam closed book.

And yes people sue for the stupids things. Have you read anything in the free parking or heard of ther person who sued because their McDonalds coffee was too hot. If they don't need the money why bother with the liability they have every right to do so. If so many people become eduacted that they are able to fix their own equipment like so many people fix their cars that the demand to sell to the public becomes profitable they will.

Brian

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Seriously - do you know how stupid that sounds?

I can get a 608 license by taking an online, OPEN BOOK test and spending $25

That's an <5# appliance cert. You still can't work on comfort cooling equipment or anything with 410A.

Tommy

 

[steveo1o9]

EPA 608 Type One, the one online open book is for appliances 5 pounds or less, Will not cover you for Type 2 and 3 Which includes 410a and all home HVAC (mini splits fall under high pressure 410a). The 608 type 2 is what is needed for residential HVAC and is a proctored exam closed book.

And yes people sue for the stupids things. Have you read anything in the free parking or heard of ther person who sued because their McDonalds coffee was too hot. If they don't need the money why bother with the liability they have every right to do so. If so many people become eduacted that they are able to fix their own equipment like so many people fix their cars that the demand to sell to the public becomes profitable they will.

Brian

I understand your point but I really wish people would read the real story behind the coffee incident, it was a legit lawsuit... A 79 year old woman received 3rd degree burns over 1/3 of her body requiring skin grafts from a cup of d@mn coffee... I just hate that the story has become the example for frivolous lawsuits, you would have sued too.

Sorry to derail the thread.

 

[Git]

That's an <5# appliance cert. You still can't work on comfort cooling equipment or anything with 410A.

Tommy

Yep - I understand that. I was interested in it because I have an expensive outdoor refrigerator/ice maker that is not working right. So for $25, I would licensed/certified to work on it

Same thing with working on a car's a/c. It requires a 609 license which can be had by completing an open book, online course and paying the $20 fee

Section 609 Certification allows the purchase of any refrigerant in any size container from an auto supply house for use in cooling the passenger compartment of vehicles!

I am going to call my local supply house today (Johnstone Supply) and see how much they charge for the 608 universal test which has to taken in person at one of their locations. I will report back with the info (I am curious at this point)

 

[Brian_WK]

I understand your point but I really wish people would read the real story behind the coffee incident, it was a legit lawsuit... A 79 year old woman received 3rd degree burns over 1/3 of her body requiring skin grafts from a cup of d@mn coffee... I just hate that the story has become the example for frivolous lawsuits, you would have sued too.

Sorry to derail the thread.

Yes I have I still think its ridiculous. My coffee maker ejects coffee at 197F I know that. I boil noodles at 212F I take that risk YOLO....
Thus McDonalds can serve the right to either A Sell a cup of coffee for 3 million dollars a cup or B not sell coffee and mitigate the risk and lose the customers. Who will then go online buy said coffee make it them selves and ***** about the cheap ****** Chinese coffee that broke the coffee machine and burnt them and tasted like donkey.

Brian

 

[Zeke]

I'm a contractor and the place where I bought HVAC stuff now won't sell to me because I don't have the specialty license. Now it does require a cert to handle refrigerant and I'm fine with that. But when they cut me off for duct work and even tools, I just go to the HD. If they don't have it there are many places that will ship it.

But this is the trend nowadays, for wholesalers to sell to the specific trade only. I say **** all of them. My licence as a general specifically states that I can take any type of work out there as long as I do 2 different trades under any given contract and don't advertise as a specialty.

If they can't accept that, well you know my sentiments. I can only hope they all go out of business. There are 3 major HVAC suppliers within 3 blocks near me. One ain't gonna make it with this new policy. And I couldn't give a ****.

 

[Git]

Update to my previous post.

Called the local supply house. The study material and the actual test (up to Universal) would cost $110. (Test has to be taken in person)

This would allow you to purchase and handle refrigerant and you would be able to buy it from them. But, they also said they would not sell me actual repair parts since I did not have the HVAC certification

Here is the link to the study guide as an example if anyone is interested
https://www.johnstonesupply.com/storefront/product-view.ep?pID=B13-041

Here is a link to the locator map where you can find test locations
https://www.epatest.com/locator/

Zeke - I agree with you. I think that they think that they are actually protecting themselves by only selling to local, licensed/certified customers but they are just going to put themselves out of business unless they are willing to change

 

[egdede]

And yes people sue for the stupids things. Have you read anything in the free parking or heard of ther person who sued because their McDonalds coffee was too hot...

Brian

The McDonald's lawsuit wasn't as stupid as it might seem. IIRC McDonald's had their coffee pots made to keep coffee 20 degrees higher than industry standard, and had been put on notice hundreds of times that their too hot coffee was causing 2nd degree burns.

 

[redneckcharlie]

I understand your point but I really wish people would read the real story behind the coffee incident, it was a legit lawsuit... A 79 year old woman received 3rd degree burns over 1/3 of her body requiring skin grafts from a cup of d@mn coffee... I just hate that the story has become the example for frivolous lawsuits, you would have sued too.

Sorry to derail the thread.

Thats bs. That case was here. Her son took the lid off. And a third of her body, seriously. It was a cup of coffee, not a five gallon bucket of coffee. In the end they barely recovered there bs legal fees.

 

[finn]

But McDonald's no longer serves coffee at scalding temperatures, so it looks like, in the end, she clearly won the case.

Reckless corporate behavior lost here.

 

[Falcon67]

Thats bs. That case was here. Her son took the lid off. And a third of her body, seriously. It was a cup of coffee, not a five gallon bucket of coffee. In the end they barely recovered there bs legal fees.

It was hotter than f*** and as above, they were out of spec. I drink 6+ cups a day and there's nothing around here, not even the crappy Starbucks, that serves anything so hot it'd burn your lips off. That and the "Pinto" suit seem to always run off in the wrong directions.

Also, if you read up on "Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants" you'd find that MickeyD missed a chance to settle for $20K to cover her medical bills. The final bill for the cup of coffee was somewhere south of $600K. Oops.

Agree with Zeke, that seems to be going a bit far. What is a contractor is not "the trades" - seems like a good way to sit around drinking 190F coffee and complaining about how bad the supply business is these days.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Update to my previous post.

Called the local supply house. The study material and the actual test (up to Universal) would cost $110. (Test has to be taken in person)

This would allow you to purchase and handle refrigerant and you would be able to buy it from them. But, they also said they would not sell me actual repair parts since I did not have the HVAC certification.

That supply house is either lying to you or they're just wrong. EPA Sec 608 IS the "HVAC certification".

To purchase from an HVAC supply house you need nothing else except maybe a local contractor/business license, depending on vendor and state...

Tommy

 

[ilovevocs]

Yes, bdk1976, I totally agree. People want heat, and get taken advantage of by a conspiring industry. Though, I received my new motor that I paid $120.00 for. Installed it in a half hour and all is well. I think this is why we are all on this forum is to educate one another. I love being in charge of my life as well as my finances, and not feeling like a victim. So, another lesson learned. There are obviously some things homeowners can't take on from a practicality standpoint, just too much labor involved, logistics, etc... Roofing comes to mind, cement work, but this is one that really is very easy for homeowners to handle and I think that is what the industry is afraid of.

Many suppliers will get black balled by contractors for selling to non-business in our roofing market here in Toledo. Non-business being home owner, small start ups, and non-union shops.

About 10 years ago they had to start selling top tier manufactures to the non-union shops because they were taking such a large part of the market share. Some union contractors refused to buy from them until they realized they need more than 1 supply house and 1 manufacture to service them.

That said I hate to see some hack installing a roof system we typically offer with 20 to 30 year warranty terms. Someone gets a bad job and they start to blame it on the roof system not the installer and it affects the reputation of the product quickly.

I can see why your bent, I would be too, but they are likely trying to protect there business as well. The contractors are their primary source of income and jeopardizing those relationships for a small sale is hardly worth it.

A local supplier of safety gear once used a non-union contractor to perform some building maintenance and all the larger union shops stopped buying from him. His building was old and he didn't need to hire a huge contractor with a ton of overhead, I was frustrated for him.

Again, not saying your wrong at all, just sharing perspective while understanding your frustration.

 

[sberry]

I wont bother to stop if they are on fire.

 

[Power KC]

Wow - this just happened to me two weeks ago, except instead of a blower motor it was the blower wheel that was out of balance and needed replacement. HVAC company quote was over $550 including labor. After pulling the wheel and getting the part number i had the same exact experience of going to three local HVAC suppliers and none of them willing to sell parts to a homeowner directly. I finally went to grainer and got the wheel for under $100 and did the repair in less than an hour. I get the HVAC companies have a lot of overhead with their trucks and the time it takes them to drive to your house to perform the repair but this whole situation left a very bad taste in my mouth.

Glad you got yours fixed easily too. Many common HVAC problems can be resolved by the homeowner.

 

[Zeke]

That supply house is either lying to you or they're just wrong. EPA Sec 608 IS the "HVAC certification".

To purchase from an HVAC supply house you need nothing else except maybe a local contractor/business license, depending on vendor and state...

Tommy

It was Johnstone Supply that showed me the door after a 5 year relationship.I never asked to buy any refrigerant or a unit. Only supplies to repair or extend a branch. Maybe some registers in odd sizes. Screw them, I'm strictly online now and the gas tank loves it. When the electrical supply shows me the door I'll do the same. HD actually has a pretty good electrical dept anyway. Sam with plumbing.

I get 50% off list on all name brand plumbing fixtures with my license. If I buy the same on Amazon I pay maybe 5% more. Don't ever buy a toilet from Amazon though. They get broken in shipment more often that not.

 

[99LeCouch]

The local HVAC supplier wouldn't sell to me directly either when the condenser fan motor went out on our A/C two summers ago. Found a middleman who charged their markup on it for getting it from the HVAC supplier. I know, the middleman did me a service and charged accordingly. Whatever, I was glad to have working A/C again.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

It was Johnstone Supply that showed me the door after a 5 year relationship.I never asked to buy any refrigerant or a unit. Only supplies to repair or extend a branch. Maybe some registers in odd sizes. Screw them, I'm strictly online now and the gas tank loves it. When the electrical supply shows me the door I'll do the same. HD actually has a pretty good electrical dept anyway. Sam with plumbing.

I get 50% off list on all name brand plumbing fixtures with my license. If I buy the same on Amazon I pay maybe 5% more. Don't ever buy a toilet from Amazon though. They get broken in shipment more often that not.

I can beleive it and I don't blame you for walking from Johnstone. They're really spotty when it comes to who they decide to deal with. They are technically a "wholesaler", but I know many people who are "contractors" that they turn away and many that are not that they will serve. Their prices aren't any big break anyway...

Tommy