Hvac technicians: ancient ac unit repair or replace?

[The Maxx]

Good evening!

I have a Lennox residential central air unit that needs a new fan. We're pretty sure it's original to the house which is 1964. Worked good until the fan went out.

The local HVAC technician that diagnosed it is reluctant to put a motor in it if they can get one. He thinks it's just throwing away money on a machine that could die at any time. But he doesn't really deal with older machines much.

Others I have talked to are of the idea that if it lasted this long without issue it could run for many more years.

Anyone have any experience with a unit this old? Was it overbuilt and bulletproof or did we just get really lucky for the last 8 years we've owned this house?

I'm leaning towards replacement, but it's not a good time for me to lay out that kind of money so I'm weighing my options closely.

Thank you.

 

[dsimatt]

Patch it cheap enough to get thru the end of summer and then save up to replace before next year.

Things were built to last a long time ago but that's a long time ago, why invest 30-40% of a new unit into something that could fail completely in weeks.

 

[bonneyman]

^^^What he said.

I'm all for fixing old stuff but 54 years is really needing replacement.

I'd call Lennox and see if they'd want the thing for their museum!

 

[The Maxx]

I'd call Lennox and see if they'd want the thing for their museum!

We discussed that. Maybe it's so old it might be worth something to the manufacture.

Like when Toyota used to show trucks with 300k - 400k miles on them in their adds.

 

[ProGun3400]

Patch it cheap

A Grainger near you should have a motor & capacitor. That is a long life but I'd run it until it dies. Now that you know it's ancient, it'll be no surprise when it does. Plan on eventually replacing it...

 

[danski0224]

did we just get really lucky for the last 8 years we've owned this house?

In other words, one has had 8 years to set *something* aside for equipment that was well beyond the average expected life expectancy 8 years ago, and....

 

[The Maxx]

In other words, one has had 8 years to set *something* aside for equipment that was well beyond the average expected life expectancy 8 years ago, and....

Laugh it up.

My wife has been out of work for over a year and a half with numerous health issues, the latest being cancer with the ensuing chemotherapy.

So please, laugh it up when I say I wasn't looking to lay out this kind of money right now, even though I have it in the bank. I never said I didn't have the money.

Thanks you for your wise commentary.

 

[dsimatt]

Laugh it up.

My wife has been out of work for over a year and a half with numerous health issues, the latest being cancer with the ensuing chemotherapy.

So please, laugh it up when I say I wasn't looking to lay out this kind of money right now, even though I have it in the bank. I never said I didn't have the money.

Thanks you for your wise commentary.

Really sorry to hear about your wife, hoping it gets better for her. I unfortunately know how medical issues can get expensive really fast.....I'd go on a tangent but I've been warned.

What is the cost to get it running versus full replacement done right, sub $500 I would say it's worth the gamble fixing it. I think if you can limp till it's a slow time and plan a replacement before next year might be your best bet.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I just posted to this thread a minute ago and now it seems my post has disappeared.

Anyway,
Sorry to hear bout your wife.
Is it the indoor (evaporator) or outdoor (condenser) fan? Even if the OEM motor is no longer available, replacing it with a "universal" type is a relatively easy task for a decent tech, with the condenser fan motor being the easier of the two. It shouldn't be too costly, either. IMO, if the system has been running well other than a fan motor going bad, it wouldn't be a waste of money just to get you through until you can think about replacing the system.

Tommy

 

[brewchief]

If you post model and serial numbers it's pretty easy to determine the age.

Is this gas heat with A/C? or heat pump or electric heat with A/C?

Replacement with modern equipment could potentially save a decent bit on utility bills depending on how much it's used. Ductwork needs to be looked at closely if it's that old as it may very well be undersized/leaky. Your utility company may offer rebates to offset some of the cost of replacement and there may be some state rebates or tax incentives as well as possible federal tax incentives.

We have different finance offers available depending on the time so that might be an option if you wanted to replace but not empty your cash reserves. Some states offer finance options as well.

 

[FastKat]

I like the idea of repairing the old one but I bet a unit that old is pretty inefficient. Buying a newer and more efficient air conditioner might save you money in the long run... and maybe even the not-so-long run!

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

I would think this is one of the few times where a complete replacement WOULD have a payback in a short period of time. I doubt it would even meet a modern 6 SEER rating.

Unless the climate is such where it's rarely used, I could see it being almost a wasteful financial move to keep it going from just the utility bills.

I had a rental unit that had a GE Weathertron that was also working perfectly, over 30 years old. They don't build them like that anymore.

 

[danski0224]

Laugh it up.

My wife has been out of work for over a year and a half with numerous health issues, the latest being cancer with the ensuing chemotherapy.

So please, laugh it up when I say I wasn't looking to lay out this kind of money right now, even though I have it in the bank. I never said I didn't have the money.

Thanks you for your wise commentary.

I won't apologize for what I said, but I wouldn't have said it with additional details.

It seems to be possible that there was 4 years, maybe, to have made a decision about major mechanical components that were at statistical end-of-life when the home was purchased, and before the health issues. You do not get a pass on that one if the assumption is true.

Repairing the stuff now is a **** shoot. I often advise against major repairs when a system is around 12-15 years old. Yes, the repair is cheaper- if the repair holds and nothing else breaks down. Otherwise, that money was just flushed down the toilet and the customer calls back b!tching because the $$$ or $$$$ they spent is now gone.

And yes, there seems to be many, many dishonest HVAC contractors and employees throughout the industry and country.

Only you know whether or not you can afford the repair- or replacing the equipment. Your need to run the equipment to be comfortable and the operational cost will also factor into the decision.

If the AC is needed for your wife, and if you do indeed have the money "in the bank" as you say, then why gamble?

Hopefully things will turn around for your wife, for the better.

 

[theoldwizard1]

What type of refrigerant does it use ? Some of the old stuff is going to get very expensive very soon !

 

[akshaya10]

I actually had a similar situation recently in my house. My coil broke in the furnace and was leaking water into the ducts. Instead of paying a couple grand for the new coil, and install, we replaced the unit all together as it was from 2003. Since it was an older unit, it used the old refrigerant as well (I think r32) which is no longer made and is super expensive compared to the new stuff (almost 100 bucks a pound, which my unit needed 8). We also got a better deal replacing he furnace and water heaters as well. Good luck!


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[BillK]

Max,

I am all for fixing old stuff myself but I can usually do it myself so that makes a big difference.

I figure replacing the entire system will probably be in the 8-10K range. A fan motor cant possibly be more that a couple of hundred bucks. Fans are usually one of the easiest parts to replace in an HVAC system so the labor should not be terrible either.

If it was working fine before it should work fine again once the fan is replaced.

Thats my opinion,

 

[driftpin]

I agree with Bill K and others who have said replace the motor, they aren't expensive or labor-intensive to replace, I've done mine before to patch an ancient 1986 system, probably 10 years ago. A few years after that, it just wasn't doing the job on the hottest days in south Florida, so I got a 19 SEER Bryant, w/discounts, rebates, and whatever the government was offering at the time on a tax break, it worked-out to be close-to the same $-wise if I got something less-efficient. 1600 sq ft home, blown-in attic insulation, we kept the insulated metal ducts. The last August with the old system I got a $280 electric bill, and we weren't running it at 72 degrees F. The next August with the new system the bill was $130. A year of savings made us very happy, and the unit payed for itself in a couple of seasons after that. We've replaced a motor each inside and outside, the bearings seem to go. The cooling however, is much-better, cost-wise, as you would expect, going from a SEER of probably 10 to almost 20.

Replace the motor, but if it gives you much of anything else in needed repairs, replace it.

We have 2 CA survivors in the household.

 

[Musicinabottle]

What a testament to the way older things of this nature were built. Just about bet that the replacement won't go no 50+ years.

 

[Trey T]

Laugh it up.

My wife has been out of work for over a year and a half with numerous health issues, the latest being cancer with the ensuing chemotherapy.

So please, laugh it up when I say I wasn't looking to lay out this kind of money right now, even though I have it in the bank. I never said I didn't have the money.

Thanks you for your wise commentary.

If the machine needs a fan, then it might be more feasible to spend the several-hundred dollar and get it going until winter. During winter, the cost of equipment are lower and the labor market is more competitive (more affordable).

I prefer to have the top crew working in on AC system replacement in winter than summer. When it's hot, there's gonna be a lot ****** work along the install process.

 

[4x4OnTheShore]

What kind of unit are we talking about here? furnace with separate coil? Heat pump? etc

 

[Jim greengo]

I just posted to this thread a minute ago and now it seems my post has disappeared.

Anyway,
Sorry to hear bout your wife.
Is it the indoor (evaporator) or outdoor (condenser) fan? Even if the OEM motor is no longer available, replacing it with a "universal" type is a relatively easy task for a decent tech, with the condenser fan motor being the easier of the two. It shouldn't be too costly, either. IMO, if the system has been running well other than a fan motor going bad, it wouldn't be a waste of money just to get you through until you can think about replacing the system.

Tommy

 

[The Maxx]

Thanks to everyone for the information. Many points were brought I up didn't think about.

My original ( and current plan ) is to run it until it died, since it's not a critical piece of equipment like the furnace and we can do without it for a week or so when it dies. This way we know we got every last day out of it. But it's time to replace. My local HVAC company is already in a slow period between seasons so we have a deal good for both of us.

I've never had an issue spending money to get good reliable equipment. ( Just ask Fabick Cat ) But my current situation has me scrutinizing a purchase more than I used too.

Thanks for the help folks. It's much appreciated.

 

[akshaya10]

Good luck with it!


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[HoosierBuddy]

IIWY I'd ride it out this summer and then replace it.

You have to be paying much more for power with your current system then you otherwise would. If I can help it, I never try to ride any piece of equipment all the way to the end of the line. If you do, your need to replace in a hurry will likely result in paying more than you otherwise would for an off-season replacement and/or limit your equipment choice to whatever the HVAC guy has on hand or can get quickly rather than the best system at the best price for your application.

Phil

 

[danski0224]

My original ( and current plan ) is to run it until it died, since it's not a critical piece of equipment like the furnace and we can do without it for a week or so when it dies.

The problem with this plan is that the AC will never die in winter, much like a furnace won't die in summer.

While you may be able to go without AC for a "week or so", most that I encounter will seemingly die if the AC is non-functional for 20 minutes or so.

Then, when the equipment does die, it is typically at the height of the cooling or heating season, then one is at the mercy of those that replace that equipment. The contractors are either busy or gouging. Significant upgrades (equipment, ductwork, etc) then become difficult/impossible due to time constraints (uncomfortable in summer, stuff freezes -or may freeze- in winter).

I always suggest a proactive replacement plan, typically in an off season to allow some breathing room if there are major changes as part of the job. One may not get "every single operating minute" out of the equipment, but the replacement portion is much smoother and the quality can be much better.

The "off season" "deal" is usually BS....

 

[FlaGman]

I have a similar situation with a Trane heat pump that was installed 40 years ago in a North Carolina home that we inherited and only use a few weeks a year. I had to replace the fan and a capacitor, but otherwise it keeps plugging along. We are going to retire in a few years and that will become our permanent home, until then I don’t mind fixing what breaks. Once we are there full time I think it will pay to replace with something more economical to run.

 

[driftpin]

I just paid my August electric bill: $92.93.

When I had my 1986-era split system functioning, my last August bill was about $280 (probably six years ago), and the unit wasn't cooling the house adequately on the hottest days (pick one). Go back to post #17. It doesn't take much savings like that to make the replacement pay for itself, and you're a lot more-comfortable.

 

[American Locomotive]

Is it the outdoor condenser fan that went bad? If so, just fix the thing. Universal condenser fan motors are cheap and easy enough to install. Worry about a full replacement later on.

Do you have any pictures of the unit? A 1960's central air system would be something, as that would have been pretty cutting edge for the time.

 

[metlmunchr]

About the only physical difference in condensing units from the 60s is that they all had a vertical slab coil with horizontal air flow, and the fan was mounted in the blow thru position rather than draw thru as current units are. By the 60s they were all using canned compressors, so other than the physical arrangement of components, they really weren't much different than those of today. Of course they all ate a lot more electricity back then.

If you want to see a real relic, there are a few Carrier window units still surviving from the early 50s. A 7500 btu unit was so heavy it took 2 men to carry it once it was out of the sleeve. Most of the weight was due to the fact that they used cast iron hermetic compressors rather than canned ones, and of course everything in a window unit that's plastic today was steel back then. Damn things were heavy and ugly and loud, but they'd run forever.

A lot of the old F W Woolworth dime store chain stores had York central systems that were installed in the last half of the 1930's. York had factory crews who traveled around the country installing these systems in Woolworth's and other department stores. All systems were R12 with all the refrigerant piping done in steel pipe with oxy-acetylene welded joints and all the condensers were water cooled evaporative units.

We replaced one of these systems in the mid 90's that had been installed in 1938. It was still functional, but with all the various valves in the system having packing typical of the 30s, plus mechanical shaft seals on the open drive compressors, you'd have to add a couple hundred pounds of refrigerant over the course of a year to keep them running. Once the price of R12 headed to about the same height as the ozone layer, as well as energy efficiency equivalent to a SEER of maybe 3, it was no longer economical for owners to keep them in operation.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

About the only physical difference in condensing units from the 60s is that they all had a vertical slab coil with horizontal air flow, and the fan was mounted in the blow thru position rather than draw thru as current units are. By the 60s they were all using canned compressors, so other than the physical arrangement of components, they really weren't much different than those of today. Of course they all ate a lot more electricity back then.

If you want to see a real relic, there are a few Carrier window units still surviving from the early 50s. A 7500 btu unit was so heavy it took 2 men to carry it once it was out of the sleeve. Most of the weight was due to the fact that they used cast iron hermetic compressors rather than canned ones, and of course everything in a window unit that's plastic today was steel back then. Damn things were heavy and ugly and loud, but they'd run forever.

A lot of the old F W Woolworth dime store chain stores had York central systems that were installed in the last half of the 1930's. York had factory crews who traveled around the country installing these systems in Woolworth's and other department stores. All systems were R12 with all the refrigerant piping done in steel pipe with oxy-acetylene welded joints and all the condensers were water cooled evaporative units.

We replaced one of these systems in the mid 90's that had been installed in 1938. It was still functional, but with all the various valves in the system having packing typical of the 30s, plus mechanical shaft seals on the open drive compressors, you'd have to add a couple hundred pounds of refrigerant over the course of a year to keep them running. Once the price of R12 headed to about the same height as the ozone layer, as well as energy efficiency equivalent to a SEER of maybe 3, it was no longer economical for owners to keep them in operation.

My family's house had an old upflow Carrier unit. I replaced the condenser fan motor around 1987. I went by there about a year ago and the system is still there.

One of my old contracts was a bank in Morristown on the corner of The Square. I don't remember the name, but it's Provident Bank now. They had ancient water cooled R12 systems that had been meticulously maintained before I worked on them. My guess is that the person that maintained them was former Navy, as it was all clean and everything that moved like pulleys and pump drives was painted yellow and accented in red and the equipment itself was battle ship gray.

Tommy