Hydronic heating gas to electric?

[ArcReactorKC]

We finally moved into our new place. Went from a tiny 3 bedroom mobile and the large bulk of our things in storage and the storefront to a good sized house with a 2 car garage, lower single car workshop, and 9 full acres of no neighbors.

Anyway I digress. The home was built late 60's and has hydronic baseboard heating. The house is currently on propane but has 400A available at the meter. Current system is only a 200A but has quite a bit of headroom left.

The real question, the hydronic system is currently on propane, has anyone ever seen or performed a switch from propane to electric heat for the hydronic system? Propane seems to be getting pricier and the electric from the co-op plus the planned solar/wind generation will make up for the costs rapidly.

If I can get away from propane for house heat I would really like to as it is by far the biggest user. I figure I have until october'ish to get this done.

 

[LopezBart]

Consider an air-water heat pump; these are far more economical than resistance heating, often using 1/3 the amount of electricity otherwise required.

 

[ArcReactorKC]

Consider an air-water heat pump; these are far more economical than resistance heating, often using 1/3 the amount of electricity otherwise required.

Fantastic idea. This is my first real interaction with this style of heating. I was hoping for these kind of suggestions!

 

[fitter30]

Fantastic idea. This is my first real interaction with this style of heating. I was hoping for these kind of suggestions!

Air to water hp can't use standard baseboard heat emitters. You will find 2 to 3 times the fins some have 2 & 3 rows. Any brand of condensing boilers if the return water temp has to be cooler than 139° for 95% efficiency the cooler the better above 130° drops to 87% boiler stops condensing.

HE3 Silent Fin Baseboard | Smith's Environmental Products

Silent Fin HE3 baseboard is the perfect complement to today’s high efficiency heating equipment. Silent Fin provides max output at lower temperatures.

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[pcmeiners]

https://www.maine.gov/energy/sites/maine.gov.energy/files/inline-files/Home-Heating-Calculator.xls

 

[ArcReactorKC]

https://www.maine.gov/energy/sites/maine.gov.energy/files/inline-files/Home-Heating-Calculator.xls

Fuel cost becomes irrelevant when electricity becomes "free" with the solar and wind I will export the majority of the time. Hence the want to go electric.

 

[Sumboodie]

Air to water hp can't use standard baseboard heat emitters. You will find 2 to 3 times the fins some have 2 & 3 rows. Any brand of condensing boilers if the return water temp has to be cooler than 139° for 95% efficiency the cooler the better above 130° drops to 87% boiler stops condensing.

HE3 Silent Fin Baseboard | Smith's Environmental Products

Silent Fin HE3 baseboard is the perfect complement to today’s high efficiency heating equipment. Silent Fin provides max output at lower temperatures.

smithsep.com

If it's under 139* it's 95%
If it's under 130* it's 87%?

 

[Dagny]

where you getting free electricity?

 

[PoorUB]

I know nothing of solar and winds costs to install, but is it worth while to size the solar or wind for the loads for heating and the rest of the loads? I have a couple friends with solar and they sized somewhere around the average electrical load.

The only thing I would add is not not rip out the LP boiler. If you have some electrical failure, utility, or something in your solar/wind controls you are out of heat. At least with the LP boiler a small generator will keep it running.

 

[jack stand]

I wouldn't count on wind or solar to save anything, it's just the opposite here. Working folks and the old folks pay for the solar and wind investors (state guaranteed) unicorn ride and those with money to have rooftop solar fleece the system pushing transmission (state grid) costs to the balance of users.
Might be a much different story in your state, we suffer from a 1 party govt. here, mathematics and critical thinking is the looser to idealism here in Maine.

 

[ArcReactorKC]

I own and operate a critical power company. I am doing the install and spec of my "renewables"

Not having to pay installers makes a big difference

 

[ArcReactorKC]

I know nothing of solar and winds costs to install, but is it worth while to size the solar or wind for the loads for heating and the rest of the loads? I have a couple friends with solar and they sized somewhere around the average electrical load.

The only thing I would add is not not rip out the LP boiler. If you have some electrical failure, utility, or something in your solar/wind controls you are out of heat. At least with the LP boiler a small generator will keep it running.

We have two wood burning stoves in the house so I'm not super concerned with complete loss of power. Along with the battery bank and generators we will be fine. I'll still have the LP tank on site.

 

[fitter30]

If it's under 139* it's 95%
If it's over 139* it's 87%?

above 130° drops to 87% boiler stops condensing. Post 4

 

[LopezBart]

We have two wood burning stoves in the house so I'm not super concerned with complete loss of power. Along with the battery bank and generators we will be fine. I'll still have the LP tank on site.

This is our backup as well. A couple of cords in the woodshed and one doesn't worry about winter storms much at all. I also have a 275 gallon cube in the basement w/ water and an RV pump & 12V battery to provide backup water for toilets, etc. One of these years we'll work on a generator & transfer switch.

 

[American Locomotive]

You will just need a conventional electric boiler. They're around, just size it similar to your propane boiler, and you should be good to go.

A heat pump hydronic system would be great, but as of right now they're only workable if you have in-floor radiant heat.

 

[brewchief]

How big of a solar/wind system are you planning? You could easily see a 70 to 100 amp load just from an electric boiler. Can you provide that much power all night? Can you provide enough power during the day to sell back to the utility company to cover nightime shortages?

If the house doesn't currently have A/C you might consider adding some minisplits heat pumps instead, more efficient use of the electricity for heating and you may only need the boiler in extremely cold weather. As a bonus you get A/C. If you decide this route I would add antifreeze to the boiler as there always seems to be one pipe that will be in a drafty corner and will freeze up if it's super cold and the boiler isn't running for hours at a time.

 

[mike93lx]

Congrats on the move! That is a huge change
My first thought was a heat pump as well, but ducted. Any desire to get a/c at the same time?

 

[Sumboodie]

above 130° drops to 87% boiler stops condensing. Post 4

Melania! That's what I quoted.

It says "139° for 95% efficiency the cooler the better above 130° drops to 87% boiler stops condensing."

Why i asked because it didn't make sense. I wasn't sure if hotter was better or colder.

I run mine at 125-135*, depending on outside temps. When it's-30* the boiler is running pretty much full bore. Didn't know it reduced the efficiency.

Planning to use it as only a backup and heat with used oil. Have about 3500 gallons collected so far.

Edit... no idea what Melania! is. I didn't put that!

 

[fitter30]

All the different heat emitters for hp air to water

idronics™

A journal of design innovation

www.google.com

 

[Jackfre]

Agree that self install of the solar makes the system pop $ wise. On the last place I did my 7.5 kw system for half of what the pro companies wanted for a 5 kw system. I had mini-splits in the house. With our power costs I had it at a 4yr pay-out on the solar system. Fitter is on the money as to your distribution system. I would consider air to water to be in the “early adopter” category. Experience tells me there is risk there. AS you all ready have the lp boiler I’d suggest that you pipe the system to accommodate the new boiler but arrange a simple change-over from one to the other. Do build the solar system, but make it so it can be expanded based upon the boilers affect. A mini-split in the central part of the house would pay out as well.

 

[ArcReactorKC]

So the house already has a central a/c with an older unknown condenser outside and another unknown air handler in the attic (woo..)

I haven't yet determined what I am going to do there as it so far is keeping the house cool.

I am pondering on putting a chiller in parallel in the hydroponic loop to see how cooling the house with the baseboard loop would work. I haven't really seen anything in my google searches where this is common at all. It seems to only be common with actual in floor loops.


The solar farm money also is somewhat irrelevant since it's also an example of what the company is capable of and will be in all of our advertising media so it's an investment beyond the actual electrical benefit.



Tomorrow it is supposed to be a fairly cool day in the morning so I'm planning another attic excursion to see the possibility of junking the entire central air system minus ducting and going in with a new air handler and heat pump/condensing unit and scrap most of the hydro altogether.

 

[mike93lx]

I am pondering on putting a chiller in parallel in the hydroponic loop to see how cooling the house with the baseboard loop would work. I haven't really seen anything in my google searches where this is common at all. It seems to only be common with actual in floor loops.

I can't see how this would work. Where is the condensate going to end up? I can't imagine being able to get the water cold enough to matter, either

 

[LopezBart]

Note that most air-water heat pumps can be configured to provide chilled water as well. Since we really are not in need of AC here less than a mile from the 55F Salish Sea, ours instead is set up to provide pre-heated (~100 F) water for the electric water heater, saving significant amounts of energy.

 

[75gmck25]

My BIL in North Dakota has system where they drilled multiple deep wells and the deep water is pumped up to his heating system. In the winter he is pumping deep ground temperature water and using it as part of water-air heat exchanger. However, I don't know any details about how the system is designed.

As a side benefit he can also pump some of the water out to keep the stock tanks for his cattle unfrozen in the winter.

 

[nadogail]

My Mother told me “There are many ways to skin a cat”.

Just find the way that works best for you.

 

[American Locomotive]

So the house already has a central a/c with an older unknown condenser outside and another unknown air handler in the attic (woo..)

I haven't yet determined what I am going to do there as it so far is keeping the house cool.

I am pondering on putting a chiller in parallel in the hydroponic loop to see how cooling the house with the baseboard loop would work. I haven't really seen anything in my google searches where this is common at all. It seems to only be common with actual in floor loops.


The solar farm money also is somewhat irrelevant since it's also an example of what the company is capable of and will be in all of our advertising media so it's an investment beyond the actual electrical benefit.



Tomorrow it is supposed to be a fairly cool day in the morning so I'm planning another attic excursion to see the possibility of junking the entire central air system minus ducting and going in with a new air handler and heat pump/condensing unit and scrap most of the hydro altogether.

Baseboard will not cool the house. Baseboard can heat the house, because it has 170-200 degree water running through it. So there's anywhere from 100-140 degree temperature difference between the ambient air and the baseboard. With chilled water, you might have a 20-30 degree difference. Then as mentioned, all the condensation needs to go somewhere. You'd likely just end with wet floors and a weird stratified layer of slightly cold air.

 

[Jackfre]

I would suggest that while in the attic you put a close eye on the ductwork. It is exceedingly rare for an old ducte system to not leak like…well, a duct. Throwing new machinery at it may not be the answer you want. This is a good thread as you are seriously down the rabbit hole on this one. Interested to see which way you go.

 

[reader2580]

If you already have an air handler and ducts why not go with a heat pump? I suppose the location of the outlets might not be ideal for heating. In Minnesota the outlets are usually near the floor since heating is a bigger issue than cooling.