Hydronic Problem- Driving Me Nuts !!!!

[Punchwood]

Hi all, and thanks in advance. We bought this house four years ago from the original owner. For the entire time that we've been here, I have been battling air in one zone only. A LOT of air. I'm talking glug, glug, glug air. BIG pockets of air that you can hear as soon as the zone valve opens and at every 90 in the piping.

Here's the really strange part. It's a 3 loop system, and the only loop that has this issue is the middle loop, from an elevation standpoint. The lower loop gets zero air, and the highest loop gets zero air. I mean none. Only the middle loop gets air, but it is continuous.

Every register in the house has a bleed valve. I can sit here and bleed this loop all day and the air is never totally gone and returns to glug glug glug status in no time at all.

Through researching this on my own for quite a while now, I have learned that there is no air scoop, and that the expansion tank is in the wrong spot- I've replaced that thing twice, the last time I realized that the inlet pressure was way high and adjusted it properly and haven't blown out a bladder since.

Anyway, all of that said, what gives with this middle loop? Why on earth doesn't the air go to the highest loop?

 

[DekeT]

Is air may be entering from somewhere in the middle loop thru your bleed valves? I would close out the bleed valves and replace with an air separator and air valve. Are there shut off valves that you can use to flush thru each individual zone?

 

[volleyball]

I agree you have a leak. If air is coming in, water is leaving. I'd start with bleed valves, then check pipes. Maybe there is a nail in the pipe

 

[anthony666]

i agree .. air is getting in, usually it's through the bleeder screws

BUT .. usually if that much air is getting in there must be some water displacement .. where is it going ?? what kind of piping is in the system ?? copper, pex, black iron .. pictures please

the expansion tank is in the wrong spot- I've replaced that thing twice, the last time I realized that the inlet pressure was way high and adjusted it properly and haven't blown out a bladder since.

where was/is the expansion tank .. how did you figure out this pressure issue & how did you adjust it ?? how did you know the bladder was blown ?? was the tank water logged, did water come out of the schraeder valve ??

pictures pictures & more pictures please

 

[anthony666]

you can see a TON of corrosion below the zone valve bank .. wire brush that and see whats causing the corrosion

 

[roscoe2000]

There is a good chance that the corrosion below your zone valves is part of your problem. Those valves are on your return side and one or two are weeping (either valve packing or solder joint). Since water molecules are larger than air. What is happening is that (under partial load) when one or two of the zones are satisfied, the pump is sucking in air at those points.

 

[DekeT]

Is that a combined pressure reducer and backflow preventer on your fresh water intake? I see from the picture you do not have drains and shutoffs for each zone. Makes it tough to isolate and correct problems. You have plenty of room below those zone valves to install some plumbing hardware. Where is your expansion tank?

 

[Punchwood]

i agree .. air is getting in, usually it's through the bleeder screws

BUT .. usually if that much air is getting in there must be some water displacement .. where is it going ?? what kind of piping is in the system ?? copper, pex, black iron .. pictures please



where was/is the expansion tank .. how did you figure out this pressure issue & how did you adjust it ?? how did you know the bladder was blown ?? was the tank water logged, did water come out of the schraeder valve ??

pictures pictures & more pictures please

The expansion tank was waterlogged. I followed the procedure using the pressure gauge on the side of the boiler and brought that pressure down using the adjustment screw on the inlet pressure valve when the boiler was cold. 12 psi cold, about 20psi hot- no problem with bladder tank since.

Water was blowing out of the pressure relief valve- to the point that the previous owner had a garden hose running from it to the sump crock. Nothing like paying to heat water so that you can pump it into the ground

The expansion tank is before the pressure relief valve, on the back of the boiler.

I wish I had zone valves, I don't.

As far as leaks go, I have to agree. It's all copper piping, and on the offending zone I can see every inch due to the home's layout. Theres corrosion at almost all of the bleeders, and a ton at that particular zone valve.

I've been planning on relocating the pressure tank and replacing the zone valve, temp/pressure gauge, and all of the bleeders in this loop after this heating season. Don't really want to get into wet side repairs in the dead of winter.

 

[volleyball]

Spring isn't far away. just sock away money for when you can shut down the system and do it right. Put in your zoning as well.

 

[mygarageone]

The expansion tank was waterlogged. I followed the procedure using the pressure gauge on the side of the boiler and brought that pressure down using the adjustment screw on the inlet pressure valve when the boiler was cold. 12 psi cold, about 20psi hot- no problem with bladder tank since.

Water was blowing out of the pressure relief valve- to the point that the previous owner had a garden hose running from it to the sump crock. Nothing like paying to heat water so that you can pump it into the ground

The expansion tank is before the pressure relief valve, on the back of the boiler.

I wish I had zone valves, I don't.

As far as leaks go, I have to agree. It's all copper piping, and on the offending zone I can see every inch due to the home's layout. Theres corrosion at almost all of the bleeders, and a ton at that particular zone valve.

I've been planning on relocating the pressure tank and replacing the zone valve, temp/pressure gauge, and all of the bleeders in this loop after this heating season. Don't really want to get into wet side repairs in the dead of winter.

If your tank was water logged , it will be again . So plan on a new one .

 

[Punchwood]

If your tank was water logged , it will be again . So plan on a new one .

Why will it do it again? From what I gathered it was blowing out bladders because of it being over pressure. The last one I replaced was in November. The two prior didn't last but a couple of days after they were changed.

 

[mygarageone]

Why will it do it again? From what I gathered it was blowing out bladders because of it being over pressure. The last one I replaced was in November. The two prior didn't last but a couple of days after they were changed.

Unless the tank has 0 pressure behind. The bladder , it's most likely ruptured.
Bladder tanks will handle the pressure you have talked about .

 

[anthony666]

I wish I had zone valves, I don't.

at that particular zone valve
I've been planning on .. replacing the zone valve

you wish you have zone valves, but you don't .. the how is anything happening at a zone valve, and how can you replace a zone valve ??? you're contradicting yourself

top left of the picture, above that chunk of corrosion .. those are zone valves

next thing .. hydronic systems are CLOSED systems .. in order to lower the pressure in the system you must physically remove a volume of water .. adjusting a the pressure valve will NOT lower pressure .. it is a one way street, up only

next thing .. hydronic expansion tanks are burst rated for 100's of pounds .. the t&p valve lets go at 30 pounds .. you didn't pop the bladder in two days .. it just does not happen

no offense, but the statements you're making tell me you don't have just enough knowledge to be dangerous to yourself and/or your wallet .. you need someone who knows hydronics to take a look at your system .. throwing parts at it is not the way to fix it .. any reputable guy is gonna give you an evaluation for free .. get a couple of opinions

 

[acmikee]

does the expansion tank have a bladder and a access port to pressurize it. and what is that pressure set at on the tank
what is the static pressure with the pump off a gauge after the prv is recommended.
shut off your makeup water and see if it bleeds down. its a closed loop so it shouldn't need to makeup water.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

you can see a TON of corrosion below the zone valve bank .. wire brush that and see whats causing the corrosion

X2. Your pump may be pulling air in at a leak since your zone valves are on the return side or it may be sucking in air during the unoccupied or "off" cycle when things cool down.

Tommy

 

[Punchwood]

I know what a zone valve is. I meant shut off valves for each zone. Pardon me. I drained the boiler, ( cold ) before adjusting the pressure.

As far as the bladder tank goes, what I said is what happened. If you don't believe me, I don't care.

Thanks for the help everyone, except Anthony666.

Hey Anthony- go have a **** size competition with someone else. I'm not interested.

 

[anthony666]

I know what a zone valve is. I meant shut off valves for each zone. Pardon me. I drained the boiler, ( cold ) before adjusting the pressure.

As far as the bladder tank goes, what I said is what happened. If you don't believe me, I don't care.

Thanks for the help everyone, except Anthony666.

Hey Anthony- go have a **** size competition with someone else. I'm not interested.

hahaha .. i guess you missed the no offense bit .. no **** competition man, i do radiant for a living, every heating season i spend a ton of time un-f*cking stuff home owners do .. all i have to go on is what you write here

 

[Bondo]

Hi all, and thanks in advance. We bought this house four years ago from the original owner. For the entire time that we've been here, I have been battling air in one zone only. A LOT of air. I'm talking glug, glug, glug air. BIG pockets of air that you can hear as soon as the zone valve opens and at every 90 in the piping.

Here's the really strange part. It's a 3 loop system, and the only loop that has this issue is the middle loop, from an elevation standpoint. The lower loop gets zero air, and the highest loop gets zero air. I mean none. Only the middle loop gets air, but it is continuous.

Every register in the house has a bleed valve. I can sit here and bleed this loop all day and the air is never totally gone and returns to glug glug glug status in no time at all.

Through researching this on my own for quite a while now, I have learned that there is no air scoop, and that the expansion tank is in the wrong spot- I've replaced that thing twice, the last time I realized that the inlet pressure was way high and adjusted it properly and haven't blown out a bladder since.

Anyway, all of that said, what gives with this middle loop? Why on earth doesn't the air go to the highest loop?

Ayuh,.... Yer entire system is plumbed,... well,.... Unconventionally,...

How deep ya wantin' to dig into this, Diy-wise,..??

Why I'm not a HVAC Tech,...
I've designed, 'n built a couple of systems for my own places over the last few years,...

I'd cut out ALL of the near boiler plumbin', 'n put it in with up to date technology, 'n theories,...

If yer interested, I'll peck out how I'd do it, 'n other's can argue 'bout whether it's right, wrong or otherwise,....

Basically, Move the pump, auto-fill, pressure tank, 'n air-purge valvin' to the Hot, out-goin' pipe at the top of the boiler, 'n put yer zone valvin' at the return at the bottom of the boiler,....

 

[Punchwood]

"Basically, Move the pump, auto-fill, pressure tank, 'n air-purge valvin' to the Hot, out-goin' pipe at the top of the boiler, 'n put yer zone valvin' at the return at the bottom of the boiler,.... """ - Bondo

Yup, agreed. I was told the same by 2 different techs. Both also said that the reason it was done the way it was is solely for the purpose of saving space.

As far as doing it myself I am completely capable of doing it. The next question I have though is if it's worth doing. The boiler is from'86- original to the house. While I know that a boiler can last a really long time, this one was on a well until around 2000. When it is coming up to temp it's loud. A lot of pinging and deep gurgling sounds. Probably caused by sediment from when it was on the well ???

So what I'm getting at is should I just have the thing replaced and re plumbed next summer? Whadda ya think?


Anthony666- A guy can also say, "no offense", right before he insults someone's mother. It doesn't mean that their won't be offense taken. I think you know what I meant when I misspoke and said zone valves instead of zone isolation valves- it was in the context above.

Then again, maybe it's me. I've never had good luck dealing with Canadians. No offense.

 

[Bondo]

"Basically, Move the pump, auto-fill, pressure tank, 'n air-purge valvin' to the Hot, out-goin' pipe at the top of the boiler, 'n put yer zone valvin' at the return at the bottom of the boiler,.... """ - Bondo

Yup, agreed. I was told the same by 2 different techs. Both also said that the reason it was done the way it was is solely for the purpose of saving space.

As far as doing it myself I am completely capable of doing it. The next question I have though is if it's worth doing. The boiler is from'86- original to the house. While I know that a boiler can last a really long time, this one was on a well until around 2000. When it is coming up to temp it's loud. A lot of pinging and deep gurgling sounds. Probably caused by sediment from when it was on the well ???

So what I'm getting at is should I just have the thing replaced and re plumbed next summer? Whadda ya think?


Anthony666- A guy can also say, "no offense", right before he insults someone's mother. It doesn't mean that their won't be offense taken. I think you know what I meant when I misspoke and said zone valves instead of zone isolation valves- it was in the context above.

Then again, maybe it's me. I've never had good luck dealing with Canadians. No offense.

Ayuh,.... If yer gonna dig into it, the boiler water spaces can be inspected durin' the replumbin',...

The noises could very well be caused by the known Air Problem,....

I'm of the boilers will last darn near Forever gang,...
'course the story of my life is fixin' the old, 'n never buyin' New,...

The 1 in this house is out of a military housin' unit tear down, from 'bout 10 years ago,...
The boiler was installed in the early 70s, originally,...
It's been on my well water for over a decade,...
The burner has been replaced, but there's Nothin' wrong with the boiler castin's,...
Boiler systems are usually filled only once, so sediments are minimal anyways,...

Yer choice I guess,......

 

[Punchwood]

Thanks.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

Another example of DIY hydronics. Don't do it. Don't try to re-do it. Hire a professional to install a new boiler properly sized and plumbed for quiet, reliable operation. No amount of air or "gurgling" is acceptable in any hot water heating system.

You will need a proper air eliminator, diaphragm expansion tank and common, simple, zone valves with a single (one time) purge point. Adding fresh oxygenated water to any hydronic system is always bad.

I would send a drawing but the upload limits are still made for crayons.

 

[Jackfre]

I have a few points, but I get along with Canadians. It can't go well

 

[Punchwood]

That's not DIY, the installer was a licensed professional.