hydronic radiator placement

[billconner]

I'm almost decided to add a zone to my boiler for conversion of existing attached garage to living space, as opposed to mini-split. Just seems much less expensive (and I like hydronic heat!)

Just not sure where to place base board radiators or if I should look at panels or vertical tubes even.

Trying to justify a long section on wall with two windows and on wall with one window - top and right in attached plans. Worry about all the glass on left wall - the infilled overhead door openings - and cold air dropping. And trying to do it with basic fun tube base board.

This is a cold climate. A small window ac for 3 or 4 weeks solves it. And we have the zone pump and relays in place. Just piping and thermostat.

 

[Bert_]

Have you figured how much you need?

 

[billconner]

About 12,000 BTU. Started with a 3' strip - 1800 - under each window and side light - 7 total - but decided we don't want to block side lights. 460 sf but very well insulated - foot thick walls and lots of cellulose in ceiling and a good 6 mil vapor barrier.

Camping on an island and signal is iffy if I don't respond till Saturday evening.

 

[fitter30]

Look at European style radiation

Residential Hydronic Radiators | Runtal Radiators

We have a variety of hydronic heating systems for your home. From baseboards and wall panels to vertical panels and towel radiators – even custom orders! We have the heating solution to fit your needs.

runtalnorthamerica.com

 

[billconner]

Look at European style radiation

Residential Hydronic Radiators | Runtal Radiators

We have a variety of hydronic heating systems for your home. From baseboards and wall panels to vertical panels and towel radiators – even custom orders! We have the heating solution to fit your needs.

runtalnorthamerica.com

I put Rental in my kitchen and thought about them here till I say price was over 10 times basic slant fin radiators. Just not worth it to me.

 

[billconner]

Sill wondering how to deal with cold air from all that glass without infloor?

 

[Bert_]

Why can't you put the baseboards under the windows?

 

[billconner]

I can under windows but the whole left wall is basically doors. We may "fix" some but don't want to make it permanent.

 

[Bert_]

Picture doesn't load for me so I'm not sure I understand the layout

 

[billconner]

20 x 23 - one 23' wall has the original two 10' openings each of which will have three 36" full light doors. Basically all doors and glass.

 

[Mr onetwo]

Why don't you just put up insulated curtains or movable foam panels so you can insulate things on bad weather days and at night...easy to do.

 

[billconner]

Why don't you just put up insulated curtains or movable foam panels so you can insulate things on bad weather days and at night...easy to do.

I may do that. Framing an "inside" wall on 12" ICF, so lots of depth for a covering and valance within wall thickness. Was thinking a roman shade or roll drop (theatre style with bottom roller).

Still don't want drafts on cold days while working.

Wondering if I can get away with baseboard radiators just on other two exterior walls.

 

[Mr onetwo]

get an accurate heat loss of the area and just put in some extra baseboard to help with recovery.I would put in an extra 20% or so and it will be fine.The wall with all the heat loss will just be chillier. You could also use an infrared propane "brick" as a spot heater on exceptionally cold, windy days.

 

[billconner]

No magic answers I guess. I even looked at a strip of floor - both electric and hydronic - but none really compatible with hardwood on ply on foam on slab.

I think strip of baseboard on the adjacent walls is best I can do, with sections under rear and side windows. 5 - 4' sections - each 2400 BTU - should be enough.

I plan to run piping along edges - stop sleepers 1 1/2" short of walls - let sub floor over hang. It should be covered by 5/8 drywall and baseboard. Leaning toward PEX but can't quite see approach to keep all fittings out of floor. Maybe long radiator covers will allow bends. Toyed with a talk baseboard detail that would allow access - like 2 - 1x1s ( actual) and a 1/2" cover panel. Or actual radiator cover all around.

 

[Mr onetwo]

Two questions...what is the running temp of your existing boiler and what is the actual purpose of this space?In one place you state "living space" and in another "drafts while working". If this is shop space and your hydronic system runs at 180 degrees then just put a 30,000 to 50,000 btu unit heater w/speed switch in a front corner blowing across the front glass wall.Knock back the speed and regulate it according to outside conditions.If an actual bedroom or sitting room then just stuff the 2 walls with as much baseboard as possible and get some heavy curtains.

 

[billconner]

Thank you.

180 degrees

My wife's stained glass studio (working) while we live here - we're in our 70s - but would assume family room for most future buyers. Over R30 walls and R60 ceiling.

Most recent sketch has 28' of radiator which I figure is 26,800 BTU or 35+ BTU per sf. I suspect it's overkill. The various online calculators are all over the place, resulting in a range of under 20 BTU per sf to over 40.

 

[billconner]

Materials...
It seems pex-al-pex is better than type A oxygen barrier pex, but I can't grasp "workability" issues and not sure that much better. I know I need the 200° rating. And type L copper is an option. And I think 3/4" will be fine.

Then fittings - several types of PEX - crimp on, the ones that expand, and push on - probably the least preferred though I've used them with no problems. Then if copper, pro-press style or solder. Seems the same reasons not to use push on (shark bite) apply to pro-press - the o-ring.

Not sure I'll diy this, but wanted to be better educated when/if I talk to plumber, who of course will have preferences. Without input, I think PEX A (200° & oxygen barrier) and the sharkbite crimp on fittings.

Thoughts?

 

[Mr onetwo]

3/4" type M copper with sweat joints...well proven.I think you are nuts to do anything else.

 

[billconner]

3/4" type M copper with sweat joints...well proven.I think you are nuts to do anything else.

Thanks. Plumber would approve, but most they do is copper and propress.

Thinking to do radiator cover around 3 sides instead of base and keep all piping easily accessible and protected. Simplifies install - finish room and then install system. This seems to favor copper because you can see return line if vent is open and PEX sags.

 

[Mr onetwo]

Call me old fashioned...never liked Pex-Al-Pex because of the fittings and press depends on an o-ring...no thanks. If you use a better grade of baseboard such as Slantfin Fine/Line 30... it is more durable and looks better. https://www.slantfinbaseboard.com/Products/Details/FineLine30

 

[billconner]

Was looking at Kampak from Sterling, available from local supply house, but will look a Slantfin and ask plumber. Thanks.

Copper and Propress seems to be plumbers preference. We'll discuss soldering.

My preferred idea of all install after room is finished with dummy covers and return in, would seem to make it easy with few fittings.

 

[billconner]

Anyone have an opinion on BTU? Heavily insulated 20' x 24' room, 12" fiberglass in walls, 20" cellulose on ceiling, over top plates, 1 1/2" foam on top of slab under wood floor, double glazed doors and windows, meticulous air/vapor barrier. Zone 6 - it's Canadian border cold. I've been thinking 18,000 - 30' of fin tube at around 600 BTU/ft.

 

[GrayFlattop]

Heat loss is calculated - not a matter of opinion.
one calculator - this will get you in the ball park

There's an App for that

 

[billconner]

I used the calculator, which didn't really allow for the insulation levels, and seems maybe 15,000 is enough.
I can see the negatives of oversizing a boiler - seemed to be basis for calculator - but what is risk of 20% more radiator? 5 sections at 5' versus 6'?

 

[billconner]

Have you tried to download to the slant fin app lately? Seems corrupted.

 

[Mr onetwo]

Anyone have an opinion on BTU? Heavily insulated 20' x 24' room, 12" fiberglass in walls, 20" cellulose on ceiling, over top plates, 1 1/2" foam on top of slab under wood floor, double glazed doors and windows, meticulous air/vapor barrier. Zone 6 - it's Canadian border cold. I've been thinking 18,000 - 30' of fin tube at around 600 BTU/ft.

If you don't know the flow rate then you have to assume 1 GPM. Figure 550 btu per foot to be safe...you want to have a little too much, not too little fin.

 

[billconner]

If you don't know the flow rate then you have to assume 1 GPM. Figure 550 btu per foot to be safe...you want to have a little too much, not too little fin.

So it 5 at 5' seems enough, 5 at 6' is ok?

Using various online calculators I get from 12000 to over 25000 BTU required. That's the problem.

 

[Mr onetwo]

What wholesaler are you going to get the Kom-Pak at ? If it's FW Webb they will have someone in-house who can do an accurate heat loss.Most of the on-line calculators are BS.If it was me, considering who will be using the space, I would get 6- 8ft pcs of Kom-Pac with full 3/4" element with accessories and be done with it.Fill the 2 walls up with fin and you will get fast response.The price difference between complete and enclosure only is minimal.

 

[billconner]

What wholesaler are you going to get the Kom-Pak at ? If it's FW Webb they will have someone in-house who can do an accurate heat loss.Most of the on-line calculators are BS.If it was me, considering who will be using the space, I would get 6- 8ft pcs of Kom-Pac with full 3/4" element with accessories and be done with it.Fill the 2 walls up with fin and you will get fast response.The price difference between complete and enclosure only is minimal.

It's a local contractor supply house, McCabe's Supply.

Looking at other rooms in house, all less well insulated, I think 20' would be adequate, so the idea of 40' seems way overkill. But it seems other than some additional initial cost, there is no downside to more radiator than necessary.

 

[billconner]

Finally about to order.

So, no downside to too much radiator (other than small extra cost)? Really just increasing from 28' to 36'. Could squeeze in more. Still just dummy on interior wall.

If I'm fine with Sterling Kompak appearance, it's a good product? No reason to look elsewhere? Dealer offered Crown Eight but Velocity Boiler Works. Lowe's has Hydrotherm.

Leaning toward type L and Propress, which seems to be contractor's preference.

Almost no previous experience with this kind of work, and not a real popular YouTube how to subject. Thanks to all.

 

[Mr onetwo]

More fin just gives you better response.Type L is overkill, but it's your money.I'm old school (or just old) but I don't trust depending on an o-ring to seal long term.Soldering with Silvabrite 100 is my choice, but I had 40 years to practice.

 

[billconner]

Thank you. Type M and solder is definitely on the table. Hiring it done, hard for me to tell if M and solder is more or less than L and press. (Plumber and an on line source suggested press fittings can crimp type L.)

No preferences or warnings on Kompak, Crown Eight, Hydrotherm, Jayson, SlantFin, or other baseboard radiator? At least there all made in US for a change.

 

[Mr onetwo]

You can't use press on the copper fin tube anyway...the copper is way too thin. Might as well solder it.I simply don't trust the o-rings in press fittings over the long haul.M is thinner than L by the way.

 

[billconner]

So I have it all - Sterling Kom Pak. Mounting to ICF stem wall covered in 5/8" drywall. Tapcons? 1/4 x 4? I'd like to find something smaller. I looked at drywall anchors, considering these basically sit on the flooring.

I thought the Tapcons could be near 3' of center (a pair every 3'); whereas the anchors half that.

Wish I could believe adhesive or 3M'S VHB double sided tape would stand up to the heat.

 

[Mr onetwo]

I would use these with a fender washer...you should be able to get these locally at any construction supply or lumber yard.They are available in nylon too, but I wouldn't trust them. https://www.tannerbolt.com/pow-0280...with-carbon-steel-nail-mushroom-head?q=nailin

 

[Mr onetwo]

if you must use 4" https://www.aftfasteners.com/powers-1-4-x-4-nylon-nailin-hammer-drive-anchors-mushroom-head-100-pkg/

 

[billconner]

Thank you. Forgot about these. Think they're better than Tapcons? I worry that they are not easy to remove.

Was hoping to find a 3/16".

I guess no option to avoid concrete. Played with idea of trying to hit those plastic tabs on the ICFs but don't think I can hit two rows - a high and low pair.

 

[Mr onetwo]

I never liked Tapcons, but they do work and are removable

 

[billconner]

Thank you.Plumber suggested just two tapcons per unit and drywall anchors - the screw in zinc ones - in between and below. Seemed reasonable. (He also said he prefers sweating joints, so that seemed a positive indicator.)

Still wish double faced tape would work.

Just finished hardwood floor. Would you set radiators on floor or a little higher?

 

[Mr onetwo]

Right down on the floor. Just get the biggest fender washers you can...the EZ anchors will be fine, especially with 5/8" rock.If you are up to it, you could install all the back plate before your guy gets there and save some money.