Hyperheat vs standard minisplit?

[Raisedonadeere]

I have tried various searches to discover the physical difference between Hyperheat and non-Hyperheat minisplits.
Mitsubishi, Mr Cool use this term, Senvile and others use other terms. I know Hyperheats heat to lower outside ambient, because I have three of them. I am just wondering if the Hyperheat does its thing with a bigger coil, compressor or if it does it with some invisible high tech tricks?

I can only find hyper marketing words to describe what it does and nothing on how it is done, or where the extra cost lies.

I don't know if what's bugging me about this is the fact, I don't know the answer or the fact I can't find any information? Either way can come one put me out of my misery somehow besides whacking me in the head?

 

[American Locomotive]

Generally speaking, Hyper Heat units have the following features:
- Larger than usual outdoor coil
- Higher capacity compressor that can spin faster
- Outdoor unit pan heater
- Enhanced Vapor Injection
- Various other controls, piping and software optimizations.

Not all "hyper heat" units are built the same. Some cheaper brands basically claim anything that can run at low temps a "hyper heat", but will be way below nameplate capacity.

 

[fitter30]

Hyper units even though they can run down to -22° there is loss in heating output it isn't as much as a standard unit. Most have full capacity down to 23° some at -13° capacity 76%. Call the manufacturer unit model # for both indoor and outdoor get that info.

 

[pcmeiners]

My Fujitsu HLTH Hyperheats 9K units put out 123 % of the heat rating at -26°. Have (2) 12k and (4) 9k units. The (4) 9k are not in yet

The 9k,12,14.5k Fujitsu Hyperheats are the exact same indoor and outdoor units to a tee, including the weight of the units. The only thing which varies is the inverter current ,firmware parameters, and indoor fan speed.

The regular Fujitsu 9k, 12k, 14.5k models use the exact same indoor and outdoor units as the Hyperheats, minus a stainless steel heater in the pan, firmware parameters are different.

https://www.goodlifehvac.ca/images/Fujitsu_LZ_Series.pdf

 

[fitter30]

My Fujitsu HLTH Hyperheats 9K units put out 123 % of the heat rating at -26°. Have ()2) 12k and (4) 9k units.

The 9k,12,14.5k Fujitsu Hperheats are the exact same indoor and outdoor units to a tee, including the weight of the units. The only thing which varies is the inverter current ,firmware parameters, and indoor fan speed.

The regular Fujitsu 9k, 12k, 14.5k models use the exact same indoor and outdoor units as the Hyperheats, minus a stainless steel heater in the pan, firmware parameters are different.

https://www.goodlifehvac.ca/images/Fujitsu_LZ_Series.pdf

Stand corrected when did they come out with this product? Been looking for a three head replacement didn't this brand.

 

[pcmeiners]

Actually it has been out for years. Mind you the 9k is the most efficient BTU size, efficiency go down as the unit BTU size, and the number of zones goes up. Mitsubishi also has high efficiency units, but not as high as Fujitsu, and a more expensive out the door.
Personally I do the care about the Seer rating, my heat use is far greater than my air conditioning needs, HSPF in my climate and COP are more important At the moment I do not have AC in my attached home. I have a 12k Fujitsu unit cooling my 36x30 garage so I leave the door open and it is also cooling my 1800 squft attached home to a comfortable level (temporary until I get my other heat pumps in). Surprises me is the amount of water it produces

 

[justinjoyal]

My Fujitsu HLTH Hyperheats 9K units put out 123 % of the heat rating at -26°. Have (2) 12k and (4) 9k units. The (4) 9k are not in yet

The 9k,12,14.5k Fujitsu Hyperheats are the exact same indoor and outdoor units to a tee, including the weight of the units. The only thing which varies is the inverter current ,firmware parameters, and indoor fan speed.

The regular Fujitsu 9k, 12k, 14.5k models use the exact same indoor and outdoor units as the Hyperheats, minus a stainless steel heater in the pan, firmware parameters are different.

https://www.goodlifehvac.ca/images/Fujitsu_LZ_Series.pdf

You look at the specs of the 9k unit and wonder why they even call it a 9k.... It's easy to say it has 123% capacity @ -26*c when the heating capacity is 3100-22000 BTU.

The 9k, 12k and 15k units all have roughly the same heating capacity !

 

[pcmeiners]

"The 9k, 12k and 15k units all have roughly the same heating capacity !"

Exactly, that is why I purchased the 9k units. If I had known of unit's true performance I would have purchased a 9k for my 1080 squft garage instead of the 12k unit .

 

[Raisedonadeere]

Thanks American locomotive. That makes more sense our of what i have observed in the various brands. Years ago i read some hype from mitsubishi that made me think there was some new type of refrigeration process that was inherently more cold capable. Later on I kept looking for more info on that. My cool Hyperheats looked like standard HVAC units. They are impressive though in cold performance compared to heat pumps I had before the turn of the century.

The Fusitsu informantion is very interesting, about the 9K, 12K, etc being the same phsical units with firmware differences. I love knowing about things like that

 

[u3b3rg33k]

I have tried various searches to discover the physical difference between Hyperheat and non-Hyperheat minisplits.
Mitsubishi, Mr Cool use this term, Senvile and others use other terms. I know Hyperheats heat to lower outside ambient, because I have three of them. I am just wondering if the Hyperheat does its thing with a bigger coil, compressor or if it does it with some invisible high tech tricks?

I can only find hyper marketing words to describe what it does and nothing on how it is done, or where the extra cost lies.

I don't know if what's bugging me about this is the fact, I don't know the answer or the fact I can't find any information? Either way can come one put me out of my misery somehow besides whacking me in the head?

At the end of the day, there's no cheating physics. some things can be done via computer settings (run the compressor faster to make up for low pressure refrigerant), but some things (like vapor injection) have to be built into the unit from the get-go. can't add that with wishes.
other things are ancillary, like condensate and refrigerant management in the ODU (insulation, heated pans, compressor heaters). you can be pretty sure they at least THOUGHT about ice with a hyper-heat marketed unit.

your question also overlaps into the marketing of units. it's very common to sell only a few condenser sizes. often they'll make a 24k and a big boy. why make and stock 15 things when you can do 2? that's where most of the "US style" inverter units are going as well. 3 ton and 5 ton ODUs, and your capacity is set with dip switches & system sensors (and indoor coil size). under-working the ODU just gets you a higher SEER/HSPF, which you'll see on the sell sheets if you look for it.

so can you get the same heat out of a 9k head as a 15k head? MAYBE. heating capacity comes down to ∆T and airflow. a bigger coil allows more heat moved at the same ∆T. you can only run a fan so fast.

 

[pcmeiners]

"so can you get the same heat out of a 9k head as a 15k head? MAYBE. heating capacity comes down to ∆T and airflow. a bigger coil allows more heat moved at the same ∆T. you can only run a fan so fast."

If you look at the weight, demensions and other parameter these Fijitsu units are the exact same units, including the indoor head. I pointed out the few small differences in previous posts, nothing to do with changing any physical parts. They did not underate the 9k specs so the 12 and 15k appear that much better.

 

[American Locomotive]

I can confirm Mitsubishi does similar things. Their 6,000 BTU hyperheat and 9,000 btu hyperheat have the same indoor unit, and the outdoor unit has identical hardware. The ODU has the same condenser, fan, compressor, etc... as the 6,000 BTU. The only difference is the control board's programming. The 9,000 btu unit can spin the compressor a bit faster than the 6,000 BTU unit.

 

[Raisedonadeere]

Hmmm i wonder if the smaller sizes get the higher seer from operating in the sweet spot whereas the bigger unit is just pushing the same hardware a bit harder to get the output. I have not understood why it is intrinsic that a smaller unit would be higher seer, -- something I often hear said, and seem to confirm from just looking at btu and seer.

 

[Jackfre]

I would suggest opening the FujitsuGeneral.com and downloading the entire brochure. While they do not list the entire output curve in the brochure there are min/maxs on every unit. it is good for comparison of the 5*f units vs the -20*f units.

 

[pcmeiners]

Then you have to wonder if the manufacturers are supplying real values. AHRI certifications rely on information given by manufacturers. Supposedly AHRI can verify the information, but they do not; from what I have read, only one submital has ever been challenged out of thousands. Sort of a sleeping dog minding the hen house, I wonder if AHRI is somehow related to JD Power and Associates.
End result, minisplit manufacturers can lie like hell and NO one including the FED or state agencies keep them honest. It pays to have a powerful lobby and a "club" (manufacturers, dealers, service people) which protects it's members.

Real values?....
Carrier claims they have a minisplit with a SEER42 , first try to find a AHRI certificate with any data which backs the claim up, then see if you can find one of those units on the market. I tried, but the claims and minisplit appear to be wishful thinking.

"I would suggest opening the FujitsuGeneral.com and downloading the entire brochure"

There is a ton more information downloadable from the Fujitsu website aside from the brochure... sumittals sheets and engineering info, and output curves..takes a bit of digging.

 

[American Locomotive]

Hmmm i wonder if the smaller sizes get the higher seer from operating in the sweet spot whereas the bigger unit is just pushing the same hardware a bit harder to get the output. I have not understood why it is intrinsic that a smaller unit would be higher seer, -- something I often hear said, and seem to confirm from just looking at btu and seer.

Pretty much any modern "variable capacity" air conditioning system is more efficient at low load (for whatever reason, not sure of the physics myself). So if the 6,000 btu and 9,000 btu units are the same, it makes sense the 6,000 BTU unit will be operating more in the "sweet spot". But if both units are at the same low load level, they should have equal efficiency.

BTW, there is a new SEER2 standard for efficiency that is supposed to better reflect re-world conditions. You will notice that some units going from SEER to SEER2 took a minor hit in efficiency, while others had a huge hit. For example, the Mitsubishi 33.1 SEER unit is 32.2 SEER2. While the Gree 38 SEER unit plummeted to 27 SEER2. You will find that most of the cheap Chinese "high SEER" minisplits plummeted with the new SEER2 ratings, while the more higher-end brands hardly changed.

 

[justinjoyal]

While the Gree 38 SEER unit plummeted to 27 SEER2. You will find that most of the cheap Chinese "high SEER" minisplits plummeted with the new SEER2 ratings, while the more higher-end brands hardly changed.

Yeah, that's a pretty sad drop.

I sell those units and they are rather solid performers. I wonder why the rating took such a fall. The 12k model went from 30.5 SEER to 24 SEER2, a lesser drop.

 

[pcmeiners]

"You will find that most of the cheap Chinese "high SEER" minisplits plummeted with the new SEER2 ratings, while the more higher-end brands hardly changed."

The higher end manufacturers have less reason to falsify data. The minisplit manufacturers are living in a wild west town, with no sheriff, there are no rules to abide by.

 

[American Locomotive]

Yeah, that's a pretty sad drop.

I sell those units and they are rather solid performers. I wonder why the rating took such a fall. The 12k model went from 30.5 SEER to 24 SEER2, a lesser drop.

Gree (and other Chinese manufacturers) were likely gaming the algorithm used to determine SEER ratings. SEER measures the system efficiency at various temperatures and loads, and they're weighted differently. They probably found if they really got the efficiency high at a specific load point, it artificially pumped up the SEER ratings.

The newer testing method has a breakdown of the efficiencies at different load points, and I remember a unit having absurd effiiciency at a specific point, where Mitsubishi was more efficient throughout the range.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Hmmm i wonder if the smaller sizes get the higher seer from operating in the sweet spot whereas the bigger unit is just pushing the same hardware a bit harder to get the output. I have not understood why it is intrinsic that a smaller unit would be higher seer, -- something I often hear said, and seem to confirm from just looking at btu and seer.

Pretty much any modern "variable capacity" air conditioning system is more efficient at low load (for whatever reason, not sure of the physics myself). So if the 6,000 btu and 9,000 btu units are the same, it makes sense the 6,000 BTU unit will be operating more in the "sweet spot". But if both units are at the same low load level, they should have equal efficiency.

BTW, there is a new SEER2 standard for efficiency that is supposed to better reflect re-world conditions. You will notice that some units going from SEER to SEER2 took a minor hit in efficiency, while others had a huge hit. For example, the Mitsubishi 33.1 SEER unit is 32.2 SEER2. While the Gree 38 SEER unit plummeted to 27 SEER2. You will find that most of the cheap Chinese "high SEER" minisplits plummeted with the new SEER2 ratings, while the more higher-end brands hardly changed.

Yeah, that's a pretty sad drop.

I sell those units and they are rather solid performers. I wonder why the rating took such a fall. The 12k model went from 30.5 SEER to 24 SEER2, a lesser drop.

I think it comes down to what they're measuring.

remember SEER isn't COP:

The seasonal energy efficiency ratio (SEER) is also the COP (or EER) expressed in BTU/watt-hour, but instead of being evaluated at a single operating condition, it represents the expected overall performance for a typical year's weather in a given location. The SEER is thus calculated with the same indoor temperature, but over a range of outside temperatures from 65 °F (18 °C) to 104 °F (40 °C), with a certain specified percentage of time in each of 8 bins spanning 5 °F (2.8 °C). There is no allowance for different climates in this rating, which is intended to give an indication of how the EER is affected by a range of outside temperatures over the course of a cooling season.

so at lower lift/non max conditions, the minisplits (inverter gear) really shine. you get an oversized evap and condenser when not at design load. if you have some way to monitor latent load, you could run a 55F+ coil temp if the load is low and really cut back on energy use.

 

[fitter30]

You look at the specs of the 9k unit and wonder why they even call it a 9k.... It's easy to say it has 123% capacity @ -26*c when the heating capacity is 3100-22000 BTU.

The 9k, 12k and 15k units all have roughly the same heating capacity !

Units using the heat of the compression from the compressor and blower motor to add what the refrigerate is doing to raise capacity.

 

[pcmeiners]

Tina, please do not repeat info that is already given, thanks

 

[Raisedonadeere]

Tina25 said " Hyper-Heat technology in mini-split systems refers to a specific heating capability that allows the unit to maintain its heating capacity even at very low outside temperatures. This is achieved through several design and technology features, and while the exact details might vary between manufacturers, the core principles are relatively consistent"

But those "several design and technology features" are exactly what my original post was asking about. I don't have the opportunity to see Hyper Heat units along side standard units so I have no clue what is done differently to make a unit Hyper Heat.

 

[pcmeiners]

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