Hypothetical property-line question.

[bluesman2a]

OK, so my neighbor on the side where I just finished building my massive retaining wall just came back from his extended vacation out west (he's been gone for the WHOLE build, so it was a big surprise for him). He's a nice guy and I think he really likes what I did with the project.

BUT....

He mentioned that he's putting his house on the market, and while HE doesn't have any issues with the placement of the wall, it may be an issue with the property lines. As in my new wall is on his side. Now considering the idiot I started this project with, my confidence in the placement of the wall is NOT high.

The wall was permitted, the plans were reviewed by the county, and it passed both required county inspections. All with flying colors.

SOOO....

If this becomes an issue, what can I expect to happen in this case? My worry is NOT my current neighbor, but whoever comes in after him or whatever he runs into during the process of the sale.

For frame of reference, here's how it's laid out, the wall is in red and is drawn in approximate location/scale. The new bay is in yellow and the fill/raised area is in green.

 

[terrivannoy]

If there is no survey done when the neighbor sells, it should not be a problem. If it were a city lot you might be so lucky as they are not generally surveyed for a transaction.

On the other hand, if it's acreage (as appears from the plat) and the wall is found to be an encroachment, you will have to remove it.

What you need is a surveyor yourself to check the property line. You don't have to have your entire property surveyed, just have them check to make sure you have not encroached on the neighbor's property. It would be good for you to have this on hand and make sure you use a highly reputable surveyor. It should cost you a couple hundred dollars from the looks of the plat. Better even, being aware of his sale, it shouldn't cost a lot more have that entire side marked. They will have to locate all the pins along that side to determine whether your wall is within your boundry anyway.

If you have encroached, it could also cause ill feelings with your present neighbor as it becomes an issue during his sale. His buyers might refuse to close if there is an encroachment and until it's cleared up he may have to wait, or could even lose a sale.

I have also assumed that there is no covenant which requires a setback. Even on some tracts of acreage there are covenants which require a 10 foot (or 20, etc.) setback.

If I were you, I'd get it checked, then do not discuss it further with the neighbor if you think it might cause tension one way or the other. (It could start a huge blow up if he disputes the survey even if you are in the right.) Then just wait. You may never hear another word about it, but better safe than sorry.

You actually should have had the line marked BEFORE building the wall IF there was a question. (But evidently he's claiming that the existing fence is not on the line but inside his property line?)

I just happened to step in here to post something else and saw your thread. I am a licensed Realtor. I am not an attorney and this should not be construed to be legal advice.

Hope that give you a starting point. Good luck.

 

[terrivannoy]

For some reason I had looked at the plat and not read the acreage sizes. I assumed the tracts were much larger. Please keep that in mind when reading my comments above.

 

[Steve in Mi]

Yes get a survey done and take lots of photos of the wall. I think I would have it done with the full knowledge of your neighbor but at your expense (because it should have been done before you installed the wall). Worse case the wall becomes the property of the new owner if in fact it is on his property. My concern would be that the wall be maintained so as to provide the integrity/safety to your build. If the new owner buys with the wall intact he would be responsible for any change to the wall that would jeopardize your structure. A non legal opinion.

 

[bluesman2a]

OK, that all makes sense, so a follow-up question:
If this does, in fact become an issue, what if I offered to purchase the area around the wall? Is this something that typically be done easily? Say for a couple grand plus the legal fees to make it happen? I mean we're talking a max of maybe up to 3-5 feet wide for about 50-60' long, call it a max of 300SF total for round numbers, on a 2+/- acre lot.

 

[tampascl]

On the other hand, if it's acreage (as appears from the plat) and the wall is found to be an encroachment, you will have to remove it.

THis is jumping the gun a bit at this stage. Just because there is an encroachment doesn't mean you have to remove the fence. It only becomes an issue of removal if the property owner has a problem with it. If the current and new property owner are cool about it, even if there is a survey and it is determined that the fence is encroaching, then the encroachment is no problem.

 

[mhoffm911]

When we have ran in to this situation, it can often be resolved with an easement granted by the seller (generally at a cost from the encroaching party). In other words, you may have to buy that sliver of land you need from him.

Also, as suggested, if there is a new buyer for your neighbors property and they are "cool with it", you should be fine (they will sign off on the survey at closing).

I can almost guarantee you that a survey WILL be done when he goes to sell his property. I have sold many millions of dollars of real estate and they ALL involved a survey, from the smallest to the biggest.

 

[carcruse]

Before you hire a surveyor, check a few things yourself. Check at your lot corners for the surveyor markers. I can't quite read your drawing but at the corners of Tract C is says 1/2 then something else. If it says FIP that's Found iron Pipe or SIP would be Set Iron Pipe. They may use something different in your area. Find those points and the one at your back corner, they may be buried. Once you find them, pull string line between your 2 lot corners and see where the wall falls in relation to it. If a string won't work, you may be able to set some tall stakes at the 3 points then stand back from one of the end stakes some distance. Stand so that all three are in a line (where you can see the first one but not the next two) and see if any part of the wall is on your neighbors side of the stakes.

 

[Junkman]

When we have ran in to this situation, it can often be resolved with an easement granted by the seller (generally at a cost from the encroaching party). In other words, you may have to buy that sliver of land you need from him.
Also, as suggested, if there is a new buyer for your neighbors property and they are "cool with it", you should be fine (they will sign off on the survey at closing).

I can almost guarantee you that a survey WILL be done when he goes to sell his property. I have sold many millions of dollars of real estate and they ALL involved a survey, from the smallest to the biggest.

An easement is a permission to use a portion of land, not the purchase of the land itself. There is a huge difference, because if you own the land, you can do with it what you want. With an easement, you are limited to what is allowed by the easement grant.

I would have the plot surveyed, and if you find that it is on his land, attempt to purchase the "sliver" prior to his listing the piece of property, so the sale will have no effect on a new purchaser and be a non issue. If an issue such as this were to go to court, in all probability, the judge would make a determination of value and order the sale of the sliver, with your paying the neighbor any loss of value in his property also. Land disputes are difficult to determine the outcome because each one is so unique. If you find the wall is on your property after the survey, have the survey filed with the jurisdiction that records the deeds. Once filed, in most states, the adjacent land owners have a limited time as to how long they can dispute the survey, and then it becomes "set in stone".
I am not an attorney, but I have had more than my fair share of property line disputes, so I am well seasoned in how to handle them. The last thing that you want is for this to wind up in the hands of an attorney and getting a court battle going. That will cost you way more than the value of the piece of land in question, and it could cost you more than the total value of your land itself in attorneys fees and court costs. Our advise is free, and it is worth what you have paid for it. The first thing to do is to get a reputable, competent land surveyor out there to mark the lines. Only after you have this information, can you decide what to do. All the rest is just conjecture.

 

[Junkman]

OK, so my neighbor on the side where I just finished building my massive retaining wall just came back from his extended vacation out west (he's been gone for the WHOLE build, so it was a big surprise for him). He's a nice guy and I think he really likes what I did with the project.

BUT....

He mentioned that he's putting his house on the market, and while HE doesn't have any issues with the placement of the wall, it may be an issue with the property lines. As in my new wall is on his side. Now considering the idiot I started this project with, my confidence in the placement of the wall is NOT high.

The wall was permitted, the plans were reviewed by the county, and it passed both required county inspections. All with flying colors.

SOOO....

If this becomes an issue, what can I expect to happen in this case? My worry is NOT my current neighbor, but whoever comes in after him or whatever he runs into during the process of the sale.

For frame of reference, here's how it's laid out, the wall is in red and is drawn in approximate location/scale. The new bay is in yellow and the fill/raised area is in green.

Not wanting to mix topics, I see that your driveway comes in over someone else's land. I will assume for the purpose of discussion, that the two owners are related. If this is the case, the it shouldn't be much of a problem to get an easement for the use of the driveway that you are presently using over their land. This is an important issue because at some time in the future, yours or theirs, the land will be sold, and the next owner might not want to allow the use. Before anyone gets into discussion of "adverse possession", lets keep in mind that it will cost many more $$$$ to claim this than it is worth in the end. Once again, I have been down this road with a parcel that I own, and know what I am talking about. You don't want to fight the fight, unless you like making your attorney wealthy!!!

 

[Itzkwik]

If you find after the survey that the wall is not completely on your property, you will need to decide the least expensive way to fix the problem. Buy the needed property from the neighbor or move the wall. I doubt either will be cheap. Either way, I would want to have complete ownership of the wall. No agreements or easements. Get a price for both options and go from there. Then you don't have to worry aboout the neighbor selling down the road.

 

[mhoffm911]

Junkman,

Thanks for clearing that up and correcting my mistake. Have a sick 4 year old and was up way too early to be thinking about this.

 

[autoist]

I've a friend who is in the 14th year of an easement case - & he owns all the land - where an easement had been awarded in the past to someone for something like this & then later dismissed between the 2 parties when it wasn't necessary! Somebody else bought the property & went back to the old easement & claimed its still valid. Its been to court several times & on some occassions he's come out on top, on others not so well.....right now the guy who's claiming access through the easement has a drive meandering all over the easement instead of straight back.....it'll never be settled - & worse, my friend hasn't been able to sell largely because of the easement problem!

 

[snorvet]

As a surveyor, I see these situations every day. If I were you, I would get a surveyor to survey the line in question and provide you with a Plat of Survey showing the wall location to the property line. Get this done before the neighbor enters into a sales contract on his property.

If there is no encroachment there is no problem.

If there is an encroachment, buy the encroachment area from the current neighbor before he enters into a sale contract. Get the surveyor to plat the encroachment area and provide a legal description. Have your lawyer create a deed of the property using the surveyors legal description, and have the lawyer get a title commitment to ensure that the property is clear of liens, etc

I agree with Junkman - dont wait until this festers to the point where lawyers are involved in negotiations / litigation.

You dont want an encroachment to cause a buyer to back out of a deal, and you dont want to have deal with a new owner later when he either wants bigs bucks or the wall removed.