(Hypothetically) Sharpening Small Chisels on Slow Bench Grinder?

[Firebrick43]

scissor blades hit each other at the cut point as they're closed, if they're too brittle, they chip.

That makes more sense than just the slight bend/spring. Its pretty rare for a steel cutting edge to be directly against another steel edge. Probably only scissors and reel mowers.

 

[neophyte]

A technical discussion is a real moving target with you. A direct quote from you


So I used laminated cutting tools that were common across all industry as an example, So you try to move the target again. They had grindstones on every farm and shop, and later hand cranked bench grinders from the victorian era forward till electric powered ones became common.


O bless your heart. Not everyday I am called a liar. You have been on the forum for a long time. You are fully aware I worked in huge machine shop and logically had access to at least half a dozen Brinell testers over the 20 years of doing so. I tested my own tools as I was active on the swingley old tool list in its heyday. I am not sure if I gave you a 100's citations you wouldn't just chalk it up to the companies and people conspiring against you.

Yep, which is why I included the irwin blue chips (aka marples), one of the most common decent cheap chisels post this century and surprise, you ignored that point and only focused on the high end ones?

I don't know how I let my self roped into this part of the discusion. No one uses a sharpening steel that I have seen for a chisel which is what we are talking about. And the fact that you believe that a scraper card burnisher actually removes metal, just wow.

Scrap steel knives now brought into the discussion, ridiculous. What is the old adage in drowning someone in BS?

How the f@ck did I piss you off so much!
I think this is at least the second thread in a weak were you’ve decided to ho on a rant against me, even using the “moving target” line.

As far as whether you have a machine shop or nit, I generally don’t stalk other members, or make dossiers on their personal shops.
I do remember certain other members.
Mostly I just respond to the information in posts.

As far as “moving targets” go, I wasn’t the person first mentioning “laminated steel” you were.
I only mentioned laminated steel in connection with woodworking hand tools, and specifically chisels and plane irons, since those are two of the types of tools woodworkers using hand tools would most often be sharpening.
By “Western” hand tools, I’m referring to the USA, Canada, Britain, and mainland Europe, although mainly Britain and Germany, since that is usually were most of the woodworking hand tools imported into or sold in the USA would come from.
I doubt any “major” manufacturer of woodworking handtools gas sold laminated chisels or plane blades for a hundred years or more, with possible exception of the planes I already mentioned, made by Clifton, and sold thru Garrett Wade, and maybe a few other retailers at one point, I think in the 1990s.
I think those only lasted several or so years in production, and it wasn’t an industry trend.
There were also laminated replacement plane irons sold by JapanWoodworker, that were made in Japan, were laminated edge woodworking tools are common.
The only other laminated hand woodworking tools I’m familiar with that seem to be in any significant production come from Asia, and usually Japan nowadays, were all sorts of laminated hand tools are still very common, from fairly inexpensive thread snips and scissors, to axes, and gardening tools, and woodworking tools, including tools were kaminated edges are completely unnecessary.
Woodworking tools with laminated edges are usually only made by niche craft blacksmiths like Peter Ross who I mentioned earlier, and these aren’t tools you just go into a store like woodcraft to buy.
Woodcraft doesn’t even carry Lie-Nielsen any longer, because Woodcraft needed more production than Lie-Nielsen would have been able to supply.
Even Japan manufactures solid non-laminated steel chisels, with butyrate handles, which can be purchased from Lee Valley, and these chisels have been available from LV for decades.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/chisels/bench/30028-lee-valley-bevel-edge-chisels

As for general tools with laminated edges, yes, those are still sold.
Wiss scissors and other “professional” scissors/shears routinely still have laminated edges, and have whether the scissors are the current ones made in South America, (Brazil?), or whether the scissors are the older USA made ones.
Ginger also uses laminated edges, as do some of the Japanese “traditional” scissor manufacturers, but interestingly, not all.
KAI makes plenty of scissors that are not laminated stool, but which still have an excellent reputation.
Fiskars also makes plenty of scissors that aren’t laminated, as does one of the major German scissor manufacturers.
Some industrial tools is made using “laminated edges, something particularly common with certain machine cutting blades like planer blades, although I don’t know how the edges are laminated on.
The older Dewalt DW733 planer actually uses laminated cutters.
These are not hand tools made for woodworking though.
Planer blades at one point likely were sharpened, or at least quickly honed with files though, which can be determined by the descriptions or names in old file catalogs.

While grindstones might have been common, files were as well, and were routinely used for sharping.
I don’t know if files were ever used for sharpening woodworking chisels.
I would really not be surprised if files were used to touch up the edges of woodworking hand plane blades, especially molding plane blades,
Shaped abrasive files do not even seem to be common amongst woodworkers nowadays, even is small selections are routinely sold in woodworking catalogs, so I doubt shaped stone sharpening files were common back in the day.
Hardened steel files were common back in the day, and readily available in hundreds if not thousands of variations of shapes, curs, sizes, tooth patterns, with specially shaped files made to order even available.
A good file should be able to remove material and sharpen a standard woodworking chisel available in the USA.

As for the older British made Marples chisels, I’ve used those.
My experience was that the edge honed on sharpening stones to a decent sharp edge, but the edge would break down and chip in use.
I was not alone amongst the people I knew in this experience.
The Marples chisels were however readily available, and affordable, so lots of people just cartied on using the chisels.
I never tried sharpening these with a toothed file, and no longer gave then do I can’t test this.
Carbon steel laminated chisels from Japan had harder edges, with much finer grained steel than the Marples hisels, and I never had the same edge degradation issues with those chisels as the Marples chisels.
I did however gave to heavily grind one of the Japanese chisels back with a bench grinder, because I chipped a chunk out of an edge, when using the chisel for prying, like I might for a Western chisel.

Here is the scienceofsgarp article again explaining how a honing steel works are how it removes metal, since you didn’t seem to read it the first time.

What Does Steeling Do? Part 1

It is a common misconception that steeling does not remove metal, but simply “re-aligns the edge.”

scienceofsharp.com

This is part 2 of the article were scraping burnishers are discussed.

What Does Steeling Do? Part 2 : The Card Scraper

In Part 1 of this series, I showed that, contrary to myth, honing rods (including smooth honing steels) restore cutting efficacy by removing steel from the blade, not by “realigning the edge.…

scienceofsharp.com

As far as “scrap steel” knives go, I may be using “scrap alloy steel” knives sold under the Michael Graves brand a couple decades ago, but plenty of “professional” butcher knives seem to have the same issue of steel being removed by sharpening steels.
I would suspect way more commercial kitchen knives are made each year than woodworking chisels, and get used way more often, given that cutting up meat and vegetables so people can eat is sort of a huge industry, that is constantly needed.
While my knives may be “****” I doubt all the commercial knives from Dexter-Russell, ir Victorinox, or F.****, or the Various actually French Sabatier producers are, and those also have issues with edge hollowing, even the French carbon steel ones.

Incidentally, Lee Valley sells a burnisher for turning tools nowadays, and has for at least a decade or more, although the burnisher bit is made from carbide rather than steel.
The carbide is probably necessary since most higher end turning tools are made from some type of HSS nowadays.
Admittedly, this is meant for turning scrapers, but the common HSS versions of these are usually listed as 60-62 HRC hardness, at least by the manufacturers.

 

[neophyte]

Well this is the only place I've ever seen. Anyone ever suggest using a file to sharpen a chisel. I just assume you're not talking about woodworking. Chisels.

I’ll admit, it’s “weird” and usually not suggested.
Just niw I decided to make myself a cup of tea, and while I was waiting for the water yo heat, I pulled out some woodworking chisel I had in a drawer waiting for some long needed care, and decided to test the file system.
One of the chisels was a Modern Sorby chisel, probably made within the last 20 years or so, and another was a Hirsch chisel, made in Germany by the same maker, (Wilh. Schmidt & Co.) that manufactures TwoCherries/Kirschen chisels, amongst other brands.
The chisels were dull, but with no edge damage.

An older small fairly new toolbox file made in the USA by Simonds before they offshored raised a burr on the edge of the Sorby chisel similar to what would happen with a sharpening stone like a Norton Fine India stone, and it took just a few swipes with file.
I tried running the file over the chisel back, but the back was polished at some point, and the chisel teeth wouldn’t bite at all in the polished Sorby chisel back.
The file worked better on the Hirsch chisel, also raising a burr in a few swipes at an angle on the edge.
I ran the file flat across the chisel back, and while it didn’t seem to bite, I was able to work the burr off quickly, and get the chisel to the point were I could do some heavy pairing on a cardboard box that was nearby.
The chisel wasn’t “scalpel sharp” like some woodworkers want, or especially carvers would want, but it did get sharp quickly enough that it would likely be fine for general carpentry work, and likely sharper than the chisels most carpenters actually have in their toolboxes.
I would not use the file for heavy material removal from a chisel edge.
It might be fine for honing an edge decently enough right after grinding on a grinder.
I didn’t have a burnisher at hand to test burnishing the edge further, and for some reason forgot to test the knife steel nearby on the edge.
The major advantage was that it was quick, easy, and clean, leaving no abrasive residue from waterstones on the counter, or an oily mess from oilstones.
My tea was ready at this point so I put the stuff in a drawer and had my tea.
Sorry I’m being lazy, but it’s after midnight.
The file I mentioned was a Simonds single cut in a 6” size, so decently fine, but also not a jewelers file.
The file worked better on the German Hirsch chisel, which I believe is a slightly softer steel, but also tends not to be prone to edge chipping.
The Sorby chisels from what I gather are a harder higher alloy steel, but I’m not sure what alloy, Sorby used to use less common alloys before every other chisel manufacturer started using A2, or powder metal, or whatever else.

 

[rlitman]

scissor blades hit each other at the cut point as they're closed, if they're too brittle, they chip.

I guess, and I would suppose that the one-piece forged steel scissors (Centrix Cricket, Wolff, Klein, Gingher, Mundial) I've found impossible to file have a tougher alloy than the older forge-welded ones (Wiss, Clauss, Fremont, Compton, Heinisch). The stamped steel types are a totally different animal (Kai, then maybe Fiskars, and everything else pretty much disposable).

 

[Ohio Andy]

I’ll admit, it’s “weird” and usually not suggested.
Just niw I decided to make myself a cup of tea, and while I was waiting for the water yo heat, I pulled out some woodworking chisel I had in a drawer waiting for some long needed care, and decided to test the file system.
One of the chisels was a Modern Sorby chisel, probably made within the last 20 years or so, and another was a Hirsch chisel, made in Germany by the same maker, (Wilh. Schmidt & Co.) that manufactures TwoCherries/Kirschen chisels, amongst other brands.
The chisels were dull, but with no edge damage.

An older small fairly new toolbox file made in the USA by Simonds before they offshored raised a burr on the edge of the Sorby chisel similar to what would happen with a sharpening stone like a Norton Fine India stone, and it took just a few swipes with file.
I tried running the file over the chisel back, but the back was polished at some point, and the chisel teeth wouldn’t bite at all in the polished Sorby chisel back.
The file worked better on the Hirsch chisel, also raising a burr in a few swipes at an angle on the edge.
I ran the file flat across the chisel back, and while it didn’t seem to bite, I was able to work the burr off quickly, and get the chisel to the point were I could do some heavy pairing on a cardboard box that was nearby.
The chisel wasn’t “scalpel sharp” like some woodworkers want, or especially carvers would want, but it did get sharp quickly enough that it would likely be fine for general carpentry work, and likely sharper than the chisels most carpenters actually have in their toolboxes.
I would not use the file for heavy material removal from a chisel edge.
It might be fine for honing an edge decently enough right after grinding on a grinder.
I didn’t have a burnisher at hand to test burnishing the edge further, and for some reason forgot to test the knife steel nearby on the edge.
The major advantage was that it was quick, easy, and clean, leaving no abrasive residue from waterstones on the counter, or an oily mess from oilstones.
My tea was ready at this point so I put the stuff in a drawer and had my tea.
Sorry I’m being lazy, but it’s after midnight.
The file I mentioned was a Simonds single cut in a 6” size, so decently fine, but also not a jewelers file.
The file worked better on the German Hirsch chisel, which I believe is a slightly softer steel, but also tends not to be prone to edge chipping.
The Sorby chisels from what I gather are a harder higher alloy steel, but I’m not sure what alloy, Sorby used to use less common alloys before every other chisel manufacturer started using A2, or powder metal, or whatever else.

In my mind, if you do this, you're doing something like not going to chunk out of a 2x4 or something, you're not doing a dovetail in a piece of mahogany that's going to be visible...

I mean I have a shapton 30k... And especially if I'm attempting to pair and grain in soft wood like pine, you start thinking about wanting a hair whistling edge. Just feels to me like you would end up with a toothy edge from a file. Some nice deals. I want a toothy edge because that's what holds best.

I maintain some beater. Chisels and if I know I'm going to be hitting stuff that's nasty or if someone wants to borrow a chisel, they get a beater set. But even those I polish and make crazy sharp.

After putting on a hollow grind, and I have a polished back, I can use a spray and go stone like my shapton glass in my shapton prostones and I can very quickly have a really sharp edge.

Wonder how a file does on something like pmv11.

 

[neophyte]

In my mind, if you do this, you're doing something like not going to chunk out of a 2x4 or something, you're not doing a dovetail in a piece of mahogany that's going to be visible...

I mean I have a shapton 30k... And especially if I'm attempting to pair and grain in soft wood like pine, you start thinking about wanting a hair whistling edge. Just feels to me like you would end up with a toothy edge from a file. Some nice deals. I want a toothy edge because that's what holds best.

I maintain some beater. Chisels and if I know I'm going to be hitting stuff that's nasty or if someone wants to borrow a chisel, they get a beater set. But even those I polish and make crazy sharp.

After putting on a hollow grind, and I have a polished back, I can use a spray and go stone like my shapton glass in my shapton prostones and I can very quickly have a really sharp edge.

Wonder how a file does on something like pmv11.

I’ve never actually used the PMV11 chisels or blades.
I’ve never used the Shapton stones either, although that was a price issue.
I suspect a file would not work well on PMV11.
As for the file, no toothy edge, but the file I used was single cut.
Swiss Pattern files are usually double cut, as are a lot of American files, particularly the courser ones.
The files I’ve seen made for sharpening industrial blades quickly were usually also single cut.
Sometimes quickly getting a decent enough edge is my goal, even if a razor sharped polished edge is preferable, and the file did this with no muss or fuss, although I did find a grinder would be needed for more extensive material removal.
At some point I’ll need to order one of the new Lee Valley PMV11 chisels to mess around with it.

 

[Ohio Andy]

I’ve never actually used the PMV11 chisels or blades.
I’ve never used the Shapton stones either, although that was a price issue.
I suspect a file would not work well on PMV11.
As for the file, no toothy edge, but the file I used was single cut.
Swiss Pattern files are usually double cut, as are a lot of American files, particularly the courser ones.
The files I’ve seen made for sharpening industrial blades quickly were usually also single cut.
Sometimes quickly getting a decent enough edge is my goal, even if a razor sharped polished edge is preferable, and the file did this with no muss or fuss, although I did find a grinder would be needed for more extensive material removal.
At some point I’ll need to order one of the new Lee Valley PMV11 chisels to mess around with it.

Interesting, thanks for the response.

Most of my chisel work is hand cut dovetails... Most just means more than 50%.

I really do like my PMV11 chisels, but mostly what you get is something that can go longer without sharpening. I mean the entire setup is nice, like the handles don't roll as much because they have a flat on the handle; not that a 1/2" chisel will roll, but the 1/8" might.

Veritas PM-V11 Bench Chisels - Lee Valley Tools

Discover the Veritas Pm-V11 Bench Chisels. Buy this product now on our Lee Valley online store.

www.leevalley.com

It was a lot of money for the set and I like them, but I have still cut more more dovetails using cheap chisels that do not hold an edge nearly as well than I have with the PM V11 chisels.

And then I inherited a bunch of Stanley Sweet Heart Chisels so now I mostly use those just because they were used by my now long since dead Grandfather.

when i sharpen an axe, I might use a double cut file for the rough sharpening (faster) and switch to a single cut *******.... and then I decide if I want to polish the edge more. Last hatchet I sharpened, someone I teach with asked if I could make their very dull camp hatchet sharp. I probably went over-board so I felt like I needed to make a leather sheath for it... And of course I drew blood just fitting the sheath I threw together. I used double cut, single cut, belt sharpener, and stones to sharpen the hatchet. I have used my Tormek for Axe heads but it is not my preferred method.

 

[Beerhippie]

.... I have used my Tormek for Axe heads but it is not my preferred method.

That's one place where a Tormek is definitely the wrong tool. It leaves a hollow-ground edge--even if just slightly--when an axe or hatchet benefits from a convex edge like a loose belt provides.

Try one each way and you'll find that the convex edge isn't so prone to sticking in the cut.

 

[tool_scrounge]

If you want to go the belt grinder approach, I would recommend getting a Buehler 16-1255 Surfmet wet belt grinder. These were originally designed for polishing metal samples in metrology labs. They are water proof and built like a tank. I had one for a while and it worked great for sharpening and deburring.