I am a new tool & die apprentice. What do I need?

[corvette64]

Hello
I am 18 and a new apprentice for Tool & Die making in ontario canada. Ive started to build quite the tool box, but im not sure what i may need. I am obviously working with metal a lot, as well as fasteners, bolts and hex keys. As of now I have my Milwaukee M18 drill with three batteries, Disc grinder, Allen key set in SAE and metric, basic drill bits, a tape measure, a hammer and a dewalt multi tool. If you have any suggestions from power tools to proper clothes or things that can make the job a little easier, Throw it at me. I'd prefer suggestions pointed towards Milwaukee, but whatever suggestions you have towards gear is greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

 

[larry_g]

At one time I counted 17 different sets of hex tools in my box. I used them all at different times, and your going to get into positions you will need varied styles. Have an extra set or two of hex keys that you can use for replacements or modified's If you haven't, look at all the varied sets Bondus sells. Not saying you need them all, but be aware of what is out there if you do need something 'different'. A few sets of feeler gauges and probably jo blocks. A good set of magnifiers to see with.

On edit I see you mentioned drill bits. Most shops provide cutting tools. I would suggest that you have your mentor take you to the tool room and introduce you around there and have them show you what is available as consumables and how to check them out. Also ask about measuring tools, calibration etc. We had an onsite cal/repair lab and they had a suggested list. Get off list tools and you were on your own for repair.

If your not a member here, http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ you should be. Be aware they are rough on newbees so walk lightly and think & research before you ask to many novice questions.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[pi_guy]

Apron or shop coat
eye loupes --magnifying device
Standard measuring tools
But as pointed out depends on what the others use follow suit often you make tools that are used in your area.
One place I worked we made long T handled allen keys other places we shorted the leg of allen keys to 1/4 or 3/8 of an inch to fit.
It really depends on what your doing.

 

[zkling]

Do you have a mentor? If so I'd ask for a basic rundown of common tools for the job you will be doing, but in general.

0-1 mic graduated in tenths
6" dial or digital caliper graduated in thousands.
half thou DTI.
Edge finder.

 

[hilld]

Do you have a mentor? If so I'd ask for a basic rundown of common tools for the job you will be doing, but in general.

0-1 mic graduated in tenths
6" dial or digital caliper graduated in thousands.
half thou DTI.
Edge finder.

I guess since he is in Canada, you might want the stuff above BUT in METRIC versions.

 

[Matt Irvine]

I'm an apprentice fitter and turner, ideally a machine operater (takes years to be a 'machinist')
My most used machinist tools are probably my edge finder, 150mm dial calipers, 300mm verniers, 0-75 mics, bore gauges, a 25mm depth mic and a smooth cut flat file,

For anything that measures, I wouldn't look past Mitutoyo, top notch stuff. A good square is important, and Swiss needle files are handy for deburring pockets and such. Also a 6" rule for your top pocket. A good DTI and a Noga base are nice too. Have a look at the Practical Machinst forum.

I also have a shitload of wrenches and sockets, but they're more for the fitter part of the job.

 

[Kevin54]

Do you have a mentor? If so I'd ask for a basic rundown of common tools for the job you will be doing, but in general.

0-1 mic graduated in tenths
6" dial or digital caliper graduated in thousands.
half thou DTI.
Edge finder.

This, plus A couple Ball Pein hammers small, medium, large. A good set of pin punches, Thread gages, A large drill index for drills, a large drill index for reamers. A set of number spotting punches, a set of letter spotting punches, 1-2-3 blocks, a set of parallels, a sine bar 5", and about another $2000 worth of tools that you will eventually collect over the years.

I started in T&D 35 years ago, and I had just what Zkling mentioned, except I also had an adjustable wrench. Over the years, I have made and gave away thousands of dollars in tools to others to help get them started. One thing when you are in tool and die, and you are the new guy, it gives you a chance to make some of your tools instead of buying some. For one, it gives you great experience. Just like a set of 1-2-3- blocks. You can make a set in a days time. Not only does it teach you about machining, you will also learn heat treating, and you will learn grinding. Which BTW.....you WILL need an angle plate.

Hopefully you will have a great mentor. I thought my mentor hated me, because he was always on my *** about things. Come to find out, he thought I was the only one that had enough potential over the other toolmakers some who were years into it. I never let him down, and even went further than he anticipated. So you want to observe the others in your area very thoroughly. You will find one person that does nothing but work, and seems like a ***** to the others. He's the one that does not tolerate standing around for hours at a time just bullshitting the day away. You want to sit down with that guy after a few weeks, and start asking your questions. Not about what he did over the weekend, but how to solve a machining problems. This will be the guy that teaches you what you need to know.

As far as tools......don't buy new. There are so many toolmakers out there now that are retiring and getting rid of things, that you can buy for pennies on the dollar. You just have to know how to check them for accuracy.

BTW....When it comes to precision, on a round or square part, or checking a hole diameter. Always use mics or a hole gage. Dial calipers are "reference only". A 12" scale or a 6" scale is for reference only. Precision parts are made using precision equipment.

Over the years, I have told many people that I taught to become good machinist......Become one with the material, become one with the machine"

Learn what different materials do when they are cut. Learn what an end mill does while it is cutting. Become one with your machine. Always listen to it because it talks to you every time you turn it on. Listen with your ears. If you have your back to a machine, you have to see in your mind what it is doing and what it is saying. It may sound stupid to you now, but one day, I guarantee, you will get it. Just like a piece of aluminum, say maybe 4" wide, 6" long, and 1/2" thick. If you have to cut that aluminum down to .400 thick, your first instinct is to throw it in the vise and cut .100 off of the top. If you are making a precision fixture, you just screwed it up. Taking .100 off of one side will relieve the aluminum, and it is now bowed. Take .025 off of one side, flip it over take .025 off of the others side, take another .025 off, then flip it back over for the final dimension to get it to thickness. It may take longer by a few minutes, but it saves time by not throwing something in the scrap barrel on down the line.

Learn how to square your material on all six sides. Toolmaking is an art, not just a job. You have a chance at a career. You are also at the top of the food chain as far as workers go. Others will depend on you to fix their problems, so you basically have to know how to fix what they break. How to remove broken taps, broken drills, broken end mills, you name it, and a shop floor can do it. If you stick with it, don't stand and ********, choose your mentor, don't let him choose you. You want the best person there is to show you what you need to know. Before long, you'll be looking forward to going into work, and you'll be able to do your job without even thinking about it. ANd if you are very serious about your career, you will soon outshine a lot of the older ones, and they will come to you for advice. Not everyone has a chance to become a tool & die maker, you are one of the lucky ones.

 

[Techie1961]

There are a ton of great ideas that have already been posted. I am also a tool maker and in Ontario but haven't done it for a while. Still have all my stuff though.

Pick up a Machinery's Handbook. I know that there are computer versions now but the book version is great for thumbing through. I used to just browse it during my lunch break looking up interesting things on different materials, tools, screws, speeds and feeds, etc. If you really want to excel in this trade, you have to have a full understanding. Study lots.

 

[chadman]

First off as a tool & die maker of 18 yrs. myself I would like to congradulate you on securing an apprenticeship. They are hard to come by these days. I could go on with a list of tools but without knowing what exactly your place of employment does or the shop equipment they provide for all to use it would be hard to say. Really you need to talk to some of the die makers that work in the toolroom where you work and find out what is needed.

The trade has been very good to me as I have never been unemployed for even a day from the time I started in this trade. You will likely work for a number of different employers throughout your career that do a wide variety of work in a variety of ways. This is a good thing, you will only become better and more knowledgeable for it. For example, I started my career in a small die shop that built small high speed dies under contract for customers. Everything was tight clearance and tight tolerance with lots of form grinding involved.

I then moved on to a large stamping plant that ran extrememly large automotive stamping dies where we didn't build dies but repaired and maintained them. Their was a great difference between the type of dies and the precision of the work involved. Equally as challenging yet totally different.

Now I work in a model shop at a bearing manufacturer where we are in a climate controlled lab type environment. The main focus is to work with engineering to make precision prototypes and such. There is no pressure to hurry up and get the press running here to make production like at the stamping plant.

Good luck in your endeavors!

 

[Kevin54]

One other thing to add.......if you are not up on Geometry and Trigonometry, start studying it. The Machinery's Handbook has great sections on Geo. and Trig. You will use it quite often. A computer is a very handy tool to have, but there is no better way to get Geometry and Trig to stick, than to use a pencil and paper and go that route. Even if it's on your own time, brush up on it.

And again, you have been handed a very special position that only a few select people ever get to have. One huge difference with Tool & Die making, over doing assembly work, or production work.....the assembly or production work may be finished by another shift. You can walk out the door at quitting time, and leave the shop AT the shop. As a Tool & Die Maker.....your job goes home with you. You don't leave it at the shop and someone finishes it for you. There will be many a night that you will lay in bed trying to figure out how to make this part, how to hold that part, what happens if I cut this before cutting that. Every decent T&D Maker I have known, and I repeat "DECENT" does the same thing. After you do it for a few years, or maybe even a few months, all of a sudden you will start looking at everything differently. Objects that you have taken for granted for years, all of a sudden you will start seeing them in processes. You will look at how this was put together, how that part was cut, you will start seeing ****** workmanship. This is not symmetrical, that is off by .010. Even your toolbox will look different because you used to see a toolbox, but now in your mind, you will see how that toolbox was made. This is riveted, that is welded, that is folded over. It will be a new and exciting place

 

[Kevin54]

Corvette.....in all of my rattling on, which I really can when it comes to Tool and Die, I failed to mention....WELCOME to Garage Journal. I hope you stick around and keep us updated as to what is going on in both the garage and at work. I am assuming that you have a '64 Vette maybe? If so, post away brother. We do like pics.

Also, you may want to ask one of the Mods to move this to the Fabrication Forum where it will get a little more attention. There are quite a few machinist plus T&D Makers in there, and all will be willing to help you out in one way or another.

And again....Welcome!!!!

 

[Techie1961]

You may have noticed that there aren't a lot of posts telling you which Milwaukee cordless tool to get. In this trade, hand tools as well as equipment (i.e. lathes, mills, grinders) are the norm. You will find a use for the power tools on occasion but in general, it is going to be the Allen key set, hammer, files, rifflers, that keep your hands busy. One thing that I did when I first started was invest in a really good Ingersol Rand air powered die grinder. A lot of shops have them that you can use but nothing beats a really good one that is your own and you can keep it in top notch condition. As Kevin says, you become One with the tool.

 

[Kevin54]

A die grinder is definitely a necessity. So like Techie says....get a good one. You'll find that you will use one quite often.

Order yourself a couple of catalogs. Penn Tool ( www.penntoolco.com ) is a good one to get, then get an Enco..... www.use-enco.com , and another is Travers..... www.travers.com , and look through the catalogs at a lot of the machinist tools. You will find many that are simple to make. And once you become proficient in surface grinding, it will open up another avenue for your tooling needs. A lot of the perishable tooling......end mills, drills, reamers, and such will be company provided, but what you want to do is have the storage containers that a lot of the perishable tooling comes in. And you want to have the drill indexes to keep your own set of drills and reamers. You will also need a set of Weldon Screw Counterbores. These are made strictly for socket head cap screws. You want your own set, but let the company supply them if you can.

Just like any business, whether it is turning wrenched for a living, or being a T&D Maker, most people don't like to loan out their equipment, although a T&D Maker is a little more forgiving to an Apprentice because of the cost of things. But if you have to borrow something twice, plan on buying or making your own. Nothing will piss the person that loaned the tool, to find out you wrecked it. And over time, you will become the same way. I have loaned tools to others, and the tool has went back into my box, cleaned and oiled, and I don't mind loaning a toll to a person that treats a tool like their own. On the other hand, and I totally understand there are accidents, but if you bring back one of my tools wrecked because you weren't paying attention to what you were doing, or standing around bullshitting when you should have been paying attention......You most likely just bought that tool.

So you don't want to make a habit of borrowing tools. Some may not say a word about it, but believe me, if you have been borrowing that tool for 6 months because you'd rather piss away your money at the bar, or out partying, that person you are borrowing from is wishing that you'd get your own damned tools.

And like I said, you don't always have to buy new. Used tools are just as good as that new flashy digital mic that someone just paid $300 for. I have an 0-1 Starrett Mic that I paid $10 for over 35 years ago, and that mic is my go-to mic. The paint is wore off even after I painted it probably 25 years ago. And no telling how old it was before I bought it. But it was bought from a former toolmaker. The mic has the feel and patina that just makes you feel good to use it, and to think of all the parts it has checked in it's lifetime. It's dead-nuts accurate, but it's accurate to my feel. Someone else may pick it up to mic a part and find that it is a few tenths off. But that is their feel, whether they use the thimble ratchet, or whether they choose not to use it. It is dead accurate for ME. Each and every mic you own, you will have your certain feel for them. You will become one with it. You will know just how much pressure to turn the thimble when you mic a part.

And for the OP....if you want, I can snap some pics of the drawers in my tool box to show you what I have collected over the years, although about $1500-$2000 worth of my tools are gone to the thieving bastards I worked with that helped their self when I was off on medical. And a lot of what was missing had sentimental value because I bought the tools off of my mentor when he retired.

A couple of other items to look into getting are just some small manuals. One to get that is good for the home or shop is a Pocket Ref. guide by Thomas Glover. It has a shitload of info jammed into it, for something like $11.

Another is a small flip notebook Machinist Practical Guide by Morse. It tells speeds and feeds, tapers, info on taps, conversion tables, end mill info. Just basic general stuff.

Then find yourself the small booklet of Trig Tables. There are a few out there that you can get. Some companies will give them out to people, or others may cost you a few bucks. I have two. One from Illinois Tool Works (ITW), and the other is from American Drill Bushing Company, which I received for free from them.

Also you may want to find yourself a good, small, Scientific calculator that lets you punch in your Sine, Cosine, and such. That is a must have.

Get yourself a good three ring binder to start putting together your own toolmaking bible. I had a three ring that was probably 4" thick. I had all sorts of info in it about different tools and the specs of what the tools were used on. A lot of the pages were for example "clinch nuts" and how to seat them, flare them, and so on. Another few pages on "floating anchor nuts", the specs on the nuts, the rivet specs for them, and a page on what type of rivet punch to use on them. Just general info like that. I should have lept it, but when I retired, I give it to the last person I was mentoring to further help him along.

 

[mastertech2329]

I can't add much to what Kevin said as he is 100% right about tools and finding a good mentor. I would advise you to buy the best you can afford it will be cheaper in the long run, at least in my opinion.

I spent 20 years in the tool room before I was injured in an automobile crash. The only caveat I would add is I wouldn't loan my indicators. I loaned one of them and it came back crashed. The company replaced it but that ended me ever loaning an indicator again.

Kevin also mentioned thieves, I experienced that as well as while I was out on medical someone helped themselves to my Starrett 3 flute V-anvil mic (roughly $250 at that time) but something funny happened.

My boss called one day about a year after I went out on leave to tell me that one of my co-workers was going to bring my toolbox home that day due to a company clean up. When the co-worker arrived he spent over an hour trying to talk me into selling my tools without even unloading them. He started out at $500 and finally offered $1500 cash. I laughed in his face as I valued my tools at least 3 times his best offer and this was in 1995. Hell, my Gerstner tool chest cost over $400 when I bought it new in '84.

After my tools were unloaded and my co-worker was gone I unlocked my box and to my surprise. I found multiple brand new Milwaukee electrical tools such as drill motors, several micrometers and indicators that I didn't recognize and multiple brand new cutting tools that I hadn't put in my Kennedy roller cabinet.

I called my boss who made a trip to my house to retrieve the items and I was relieved to find that most of the items could be traced to purchases since I had been off on leave. I was never made aware of what happened when he took the stuff back to work but I saw the co-worker that tried to buy my box a few years ago and he crossed the street rather than speak to me. That kind of made me go 'WTF."

Sam

 

[espyking83]

Congrats and good luck! Dont know what you need but im happy for ya!

 

[Art From De Leon]

I have only the vaguest of ideas on what a tool and die maker does, but I would be very proud that Mr. Kevin54 has taken the time to share his knowlege and advice with you.

 

[holt2ton]

The one thing that my mentor told me was to find someone like Kevin54 (sorry Kevin54 not to knock you on age) but he said to find the older guys that still know how to turn the handles. Anyone can push a start button but to truly become knowledgeable learn from those that have been there and done that. From there you can build the foundation you need. I started in high school, 25 years later I still love the feeling of making chips fly. It can be damn frustrating at times but also so freaking cool to see the stuff you can make!!
I too started small...
- 0-3" mics(sorry std. here in the states!!)
- edge finder
- depth gage
- combination sq. set with center finder attachment
- 6" scale

The rest I borrowed until I could buy more with the company tool purchase program. If you don't know, find out if your company has one. Many shops do. They allow you to purchase tools up to a certain amount and deduct it from your check in small amounts until it is paid off. I have purchased many of my tools that way.

 

[larry_g]

Also, you may want to ask one of the Mods to move this to the Fabrication Forum where it will get a little more attention. There are quite a few machinist plus T&D Makers in there, and all will be willing to help you out in one way or another.

And again....Welcome!!!!

I'll second the welcome but warn you that among the T&G guys and machinists there are a lot of well meaning amateurs and downright scary suggestions made there. Count me among the well meaning amateurs. I've only had my hands on the machines for 15 years or so.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[scouting]

I'll add that Kevin definitely knows what he's taking about. I'm not a machinist by trade, but my hobbies force me into it. The only thing constructive I have to add is watch Tom Lipton's channel (oxtoolco) on YouTube. He's got a knack for filming exactly the right thing to show his process; he isn't trying to educate but you WILL learn a lot. And, since nobody's mentioned it, eBay is your friend. You can end up with some ridiculously nice tools for the price of Chinese tools, but it can take some time to find the true deals.

 

[BillK]

Vette,
I am going to add something unusual. Depending on how noisy your shop is, get a GOOD pair of hearing protectors and start wearing them all of the time. I know so many people that have worked in either Automotive Shops, Machine Shops, Fabrication shops etc and just about all of them have lost most of their hearing by the time they are 45-50 years old.

I have been wearing hearing protectors for the last 20 years pretty much all day long. Once you get used to them, it is almost painful to take them off and listen to the noise I wear them cutting grass, blowing leaves etc.

I am not sure how I got in the habit, I know we had to wear them in the Navy and I have always hated real loud noise. I am 64 and still have real good hearing compared to most of the guys I know. I love music and can still hear most of the high notes that you need in order to enjoy it.

Buy a set and try them for a month. If you don't agree with me, I will buy them from you. Your employer might even buy them for you

 

[Hephaestus29]

Visit Keith Fenners youtube channel, for a couple
of years now he has been giving away
Machinist tools with the help of people
sending in tools etc. for the cause of
keeping the trade alive!
He has some rules for entering and they
are kind of drawn out on his video. "Lengthy"
But he is a great machinist and has a lot
of good videos.
I think one of the requirements is writing
Him a letter explaining why you're a
worthy candidate. Im not sure if you
have to live in the states or not though.
Good luck

 

[fordcragar]

Every time that you think you need to borrow something, that is what you need to buy. If you borrow a tool and break it, now you'll have to buy two of them; which would be one for a replacement and one for you box.

 

[charlesgriffin]

Tool and die makers are truely artists!!! Is the school part of the National Tooling and Machining Association? A machinist work book, a couple micrometers, and a square set, a 7- or 11-drawer machinists toolbox. I used to have one from Sears (Craftsman); they were brown in color and had a rough surface, so if the hands are oily, they would not slip.

 

[metalhead212121]

And for the OP....if you want, I can snap some pics of the drawers in my tool box to show you what I have collected over the years, although about $1500-$2000 worth of my tools are gone to the thieving bastards I worked with that helped their self when I was off on medical. And a lot of what was missing had sentimental value because I bought the tools off of my mentor when he retired.

Since you're offering Kevin I'd like to see what tools a machinist has in their tool box. Over the years of tinkering with things in the garage I've picked up a couple different micrometers. Remember my workbench build? Micrometers came in handy. I can appreciate the talent that machinists/tool and die makers have. Over the years I've learned how to make stuff on my own. Does the stuff I make have the holes precisely right where they should be? Hell no. Is the stuff I make a hair too short or a hair too long? All the time. Would that fly if I was working in a machine shop? DOUBT IT! I know I've sent you a PM or two about working in a machine shop. Having to make everything precise and not being able to use the "trial and error method" would make me not enjoy the job. Couple years ago I bought a drill press from a guy and it turned out that he owned a machine shop. He somewhat offered me a job but the more I talked to him the more I thought I wouldn't enjoy it. Reading this thread reinforces what I thought.

 

[Techie1961]

Having to make everything precise and not being able to use the "trial and error method" would make me not enjoy the job.

That is something that a lot of people entering the trade don't get. It is one of those things that you are either born with or not. If you aren't able to really visualize the interface and geometry/relationships, you will have a tough time in this trade. It's kind of a cascading thing that can really mess you up when you get to assembling the tools and things don't line up. You will see it in tools built by guys that need a lot of Michigan (missed again) screws. These are screws where the body of the screw is turned down a bit because the holes don't line up.

 

[larry_g]

That is something that a lot of people entering the trade don't get. It is one of those things that you are either born with or not. If you aren't able to really visualize the interface and geometry/relationships, you will have a tough time in this trade. It's kind of a cascading thing that can really mess you up when you get to assembling the tools and things don't line up. You will see it in tools built by guys that need a lot of Michigan (missed again) screws. These are screws where the body of the screw is turned down a bit because the holes don't line up.

This is one of the things that intrigues me as an amateur machinist. The mind games with the math and the attention to detail required to perform the job at hand. Once I got to working with fine quality production machines it fascinated me how someone could make two pieces that would fit together with more than two dowels. How does one hold the tolerances to make 4 holes in a block of steel, press in 4 dowels then make another block that has 4 holes that will slip onto the first block so precisely that the dowels have to be relieved to let the air out?

As an amateur machinist I now understand the above but have not acquired the skills and tools to do that level of work.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Kevin54]

Metalhead......I'll snap some pics here shortly. I'll have to charge the batteries on my camera. As soon as they come off the charger, I'll post some up.

That is something that a lot of people entering the trade don't get. It is one of those things that you are either born with or not. If you aren't able to really visualize the interface and geometry/relationships, you will have a tough time in this trade. It's kind of a cascading thing that can really mess you up when you get to assembling the tools and things don't line up. You will see it in tools built by guys that need a lot of Michigan (missed again) screws. These are screws where the body of the screw is turned down a bit because the holes don't line up.

That's one thing I failed to mention before.......No two machines are the same. Each machine has their own characteristics. With the machines we had at work, some were Bridgeports, some Alliants with ProtoTrak retrofits, and then a factory ProtoTrak 3 axis. On a few occasions, a couple guys would tag team a fixture. I told them DO NOT drill holes on both machines for dowel pins. For the ones that are not real far into machining.....when you build a tooling fixture, all of the components get dowel pins to insure that everything lines up, and if it has to come apart for rework, it will go back in the same place. Bolts only will let parts adjust all over the place. When it comes to machining, if you have a .005 to a .010 tolerance, that is a lot. If you have .030 tolerance, that is a shitload of room for mistakes.

When you dowel a part, it's guaranteed to go back in the same place every time, if you have to disassemble it. But when it comes to machines, and like I said, each machine is different, and each machine has it's own characteristics. One machine may be off by .002 in one direction over 6"-10". The next machine, although they are identical may be off .002 on the minus side over the same distance. That is why when a precision fixture is built, it needs to all be built off of one machine only.

I don't care how precise a manufacturer of a machine says his accuracy is, and he may advertise it as .0001 repeatability, but that is repeatability for that machine. Parts have a tolerance for a reason. And Geometrical Dimensioning and Tolerancing came into play years ago to avoid stackup problems at assembly. GD&T is the short wording for it. In a perfect world, everything would be exact. But we don't live in a perfect world. Tolerancing let's us get by. So a machine is no different than making parts off of that machine. When that machine was built, the parts were made with cutters of all kinds. Each and every cutter will wear, and each and every cutter will wear differently.

Everything is like a snowball effect in reverse. Starting with a part, you use cutters to make a part, those cutters were made by machines, those machines were made by cutters, and each and every component starting out with the very first cutter to make a machine, to make a cutter, to make a machine, to make a part, all had tolerances.

That is why I always say...."become one with the machine, become one with the part. Understand, and "SEE" in your mind what everything is doing. Once you understand what things are doing, then you can eliminate certain variables. Bridgeports are damn fine machines. But I bet that I could walk into any factory that is making precision parts, or making precision tooling, check the TRAM on the mill, and each and every one would be out of tram. By how much.......it could be .0001, or it could be .005. That is because what is used to check it, may be out itself somewhat.

For some of the newer machinist that knows what "tram" is......a lot of you will tram a mill, and use a piece of paper to allow the indicator to slide over the bolt slots in the table of the mill. Nothing wrong with that at all. The vise is off of the table, you have cranked the table up quite a ways. You put the indicator in the quill and lower the quill maybe an inch to check tram. Congrats......you are trammed in with a half though indicator, and the needle on the dial barely fluctuates. Now drop the table down 5" and bring the quill down and zero in. Check tram and it is off by maybe a thou or two.

So if a person is using two mills to make a precision fixture, or a part, just depending on how close the tramming has been on both, will not allow the two pieces to go together perfectly. You have added more tolerance into things that shouldn't be. Just thing of a complicated part that has to run across multiple machine to get completed. Each and every setup, changes something towards the worse, not towards the better. And worse yet.....factor in HUMAN INTERACTION. No two people are identical, plain and simple. Each and every human being has tolerances. Take two absolute identical twins. Have one run a multiple setup part on a Bridgeport using nothing but a KURT Vise. Next have the second twin run the same exact part with the same exact tooling. Both parts when checked will be different. All for the fact that one may move the dial a couple of thousandths more than the other twin. One may tighten the vise just a tic tighter, which may throw a slight bow in a part, therefore the part will have more or less material removed.

So for the absolute most precision that one can get, is one person, one machine, become one with the machine, become one with the part. Eliminate as much setups as you can. Always find the edge of your part off of a stationary jaw. If you start building a tool, do not use multiple edge finders. Use the same one for each piece of material that goes into the fixture or part that is being made. At the end of the day, NEVER stop in the middle of a part, then finish it up the next day. The dimensions that you THOUGHT you were going to have, will not happen. WHY????? Heat changes everything. If you run 3/4's of the part today, then come back in the next morning to finish it.....the machine is cold, the part is cold, the bearings are cold. So like the "snowball effect".......Bearings may change things by .0005. A few thousandths cut to finish the part is not like yesterday when you were taking .100 cuts and heating the part up.

And again, that's why I always say become one with both the part and machine. If a lot of people that runs mills, or lathes.....if you ever watch a great, surface grinder person, not good, but "great"....you would notice that before they ever start grinding, they let the machine run for a while to get the bearings and races seated in to the point that they will not change from part to part. Shutting a grinder off, going to lunch, then coming back to grind on a part, you will find that the part is not grinding the same. The grinding wheel may be bouncing a little. That's because everything has cooled down. The wheel, the spindle, and the part. Heat expands, cool contracts. That is what you need to see in your head.

Well I may have gotten clear off track, and I'm not going back to reread where I derailed myself , but when I start talking about machining, I can go on and on.

I'll go get the batteries for the camera and snap some pics instead of babbling on

 

[MOwens]

Congratulations!

One thing that is paramount is a good set of boots or shoes depending on what your company will allow. When I received my first job out of college I was on my feet for 10 to 12 hours a day 5-6 days a week. You will find out what tools you will need further along in your apprenticeship so I wouldn't worry too much about that right now plus you will find out what tools you prefer. I like etalon mics, mitutoyo electronics, interapid and b&s indicators and starrett for most everything else. But you may find you like something else. Buy quality as it will be with you throughout your career. If you buy used do not pay more than half the price of new as it will cost you that much to get it repaired.

Work hard on your math skills as you will use them everyday. I have worked with a bunch of amazing toolmakers that could not read or write but were genius when it came to math. Trigonometry will become your best friend.

It is a great trade and if you are smart and work hard you will never have to worry about work however it is a feast or famine career because it fluctuates with the economy so much.

I have been a toolmaker since 2001 and still am on my feet 10-12 hours a day but at least it is in my own shop now.

 

[blazentrout]

The impression I have is the op is going for the floor end of T&D vs the machine end of it. The op did not say if he was working on molds, jig and fixtures, stamping dies, castings ect, which all have their own nich tools and skill sets after you get the basics tools. My advice is to get a legal pad and start making a list of what you have to barrow or will make the job easier and faster for you. buy quality stuff the first time and engrave your name on every thing in multiple spots- it keeps the honest people honest and helps things get back to you if you mis place it.

I am a journeyman machinist with 18 yrs in the trade with time in job shops, die and mold shops, and tool shops and I see 2 similar but dissimilar tool needs to do the job depending on what you are doing. my shops have provided the consumables over the years and use of some hand tools/measuring equipment but I have brought my own tools so I know where they are at/shape they are in when I need them with out having to hunt them up.

 

[Southernbuild]

I don't know if the OP is still following, but this is an awesome thread. As someone that wants to learn machining, this thread has been very interesting / insightful.

Thanks!

 

[Techie1961]

Kevin, I knew I liked you for a reason; you seem to know your stuff. Like Southernbuild says we seem to have lost the OP but this is a great thread. Might be preaching to the choir in some regards but...

 

[404]

Some members of the Practical Machinist forum are able to give you very good information.

A few of the members there are cranks, bores, out on work release, or perpetually long winded and intoxicated. Just ignore these.

The owner of the forum enjoys being argumentative/dismissive with people who reply to his posts, don't reply to him and you will be fine.

The good people on there are very, very good. Well worth reading on a daily basis.

Regards,
404

 

[sracer99]

Very interesting thread; Kevin you sure know your stuff. I'm not a machinist, went to engineering school but now in a management role at a large company that does a lot of stamping, rollforming, etc. Spend some time in T&D because those guys have the most interesting job in the plant and they are the smartest guys around. I really admire their thinking and inventiveness - they build a lot of production lines and of course tooling. Corvette, you've chosen a great field. We need more of you.

 

[Machinist guy]

I'm no tool&die man but I'm a machinist lol. I'm sure others have got you lined out with what you'll need but here are some great things to have.

Machinists handbook
A good 0-6" set of dial or digital calipers
safety glasses
at least a 0-3" micrometer set if not 0-6" set
a decent set of needle files
a 6" mill file and an 8" ******* file
router burr set for de-burring
travel indicator and base, maybe a dial indicator (i use an old jeweled Interrapid, personal preference)
a 0-12 inch scale
adjustable wrench
needle nose and regular pliers, maybe some thread files
file handle for safety
and last but not least a good notebook for taking notes you'll need on the machines and other things.

Oh! And a dead blow hammer. Just a medium weight will do fine.

And a torx driver set for changing inserts in indexable tooling

If i can ever be of assistance, feel free to p.m. me.

 

[metalhead212121]

still waiting on pics Kevin.

 

[cranejon]

The old German mothers told their sons,

"Grow up and be a Doctor, Lawyer, or Tool Maker."

 

[stang6768]

Corvette64-----I have had the opportunity to meet and hang out with Kevin54 on more than one occasion. Kevin is very knowledgeable when it comes to machining and die work, and very interesting to listen to when we are talking about die work and machining. All of his posts on this OP says a lot about the trade.
I am also a retired journeyman machinist and tool and die maker. Served my 4 year apprenticeship thru the company that offered it and recognized by the State Of Ohio. In the the years of doing this kind of work, I never got bored because everyday was something new to make or make the repairs to keep the parts in tolerance. The best part of this occupation (for me anyway) was since I retired, that perfection that was required and taught to me is still embedded in me for all the things that I do now.

Corvette------ Stick with it and enjoy a trade that you will enjoy and it will never get boring. Oh yes---- Welcome to Garage Journal.

 

[Kevin54]

still waiting on pics Kevin.

Well that's my fault. I took some pics, downloaded them to my computer, then got busy and totally forgot. Some days I do have my head up my *** for certain. The drawers look a mess as I've not done much as far as organizing since I got them back from the shop, and a lot of my stuff was stolen by some so-called fellow friends. I'll slowly get some of the ites replaced either by picking up some items from other retired toolmakers that are selling out, or once I get my surface grinder up and running, I'll make my own tools. Over the years, I have made and gave away thousands of dollars worth of items to ones that I was mentoring. If I knew that some of those same ones were going to rip me off, I would have rethought doing that.

But anyways, I'll post up some pics of what I have. A Penn Tool catalog is a good catalog to get though to see a lot of the items that you may need in the trade. And once a person gets proficient in machining, and surface grinding, and truly understand the concept, it's easy to make a lot of your...what I call the solid tools. Vise stops, parallels, the 1-2-3 blocks, and when you are really good at grinding, your Sine Bars and Sine Plates.

 

[Kevin54]

And a few more pics

 

[Kevin54]

And a few more.