I broke my vise today...

[miketyler]

...and I'm sick that I was so stupid to let this happen. This is a family vise that came out of my dad's shop. I'm just sick now. I know it will never have the strength it had before but can cast be welded? I've heard that it can but maybe shouldn't in this type application. Are there any parts sources for these?

 

[Toxictom]

Were you just using it normally or were you really cranking down on something?
I was beating the handle of mine the other day and thought this is how they break.

 

[Packard V8]

Yes, cast iron is welded every day, but not by most home shop welders.
No, it won't have the strength of the original and if done by a professional will cost more than the vise is worth.
One has to wonder how you accomplished that destruction. I've owned a similar Athol forever and don't know how I'd go about breaking it. Was a cheater bar or sledge hammer involved?

jack vines

 

[Rinspeed]

It can be welded by someone that knows what they are doing, preheat, weld, cool down very slowly in wet sand.

 

[PoorUB]

You can weld it, but I would be suspect of the strength afterwards.

I have an older vise I bought used 35 years ago for $25. Many years ago I broke it and too broke to buy another. I figured I had no nothing to lose so I carefully clamped it together and started running beads with my MIG. I ran 5-6 passes and it has held just fine. Funny thing is the jaws were just a bit off before, and job they are perfect!

 

[drivesitfar]

Mike: I’m also curious how you broke it cause those old Athols were built to last 100 years.

 

[1982fxr]

I didn't think that could be done to one of those Athols.

 

[ng8264723]

I broke one when I was 18. I used it to press bushings into something! I had a 4 foot cheater bar on it. The funny thing is I had a 40 ton press in the shop! I was a crazy kid. The vise I broke? A charles parker 10in jar! My buddy a professional welder welded it for me way back then. It came out a little off center LOL. i used it like that for 20 years. Recently I spent $80-100 and had it machined straight. You could never tell the difference and it has handled everything i could throw at it. That said i no longer use cheater bars

 

[Shiftless]

Let’s not press the O.P. about what he was doing when that vise broke. I have a couple of Athol vises and like others have said, they are super heavy duty. But anything will break if stressed beyond its limits, no matter how high those limits are.

I‘m sure mike will never do whatever it was any more.

 

[miketyler]

Yes, I was pressing new wheel studs in a hub. I don't know why I didn't think to use my air hammer. I did indeed put a cheater bar on it for leverage. I misjudged the inside depth of the socket I was using and stud had bottomed out. I'm glad my dad isn't here to see this.

 

[rsanter]

yes it can be welded
yes it can be replaced

for welding cast Iron I use a MIG welder. I would strip that vise down then clamp the pieces together.
then you can put them in the BBQ for preheating
have a friend with you to help as when you pull it from the BBQ you will need to keep a torch on it to keep it warm.
tack weld the 4 corners, then weld one side at a time.
right after welded the weld area needs heated with a torch.
once all is welded then put back in the BBQ for an hour then turn the BBQ off but do not open the BBQ.
let sit in the BBQ to slow cool then you should be good

if you can find another one for reasonable then yu can replace the broken part and keep or sell the rest

 

[drivesitfar]

There’s a guy near me that dies repairs like that but it might be $200-300 for that break. Maybe you’ve got a guy near you?

or finding a good Athol dynamic on ebay or locally might be your best option. Put it on the shelf for now while you figure it out and maybe see if one of your local GJ members might have a similar replacement. Or find a Chinese wonder vise that most guys like and use it as your heater til you find a good old made in USA user.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

OP, don't get too upset. I welded this starrett with a cheap arc welder using a technique on youtube from the salvage workshop channel. I have no way of comparing the strength now vs its original form. I will tell you I clamped it down and put a piece of metal in the jaws. I cranked the handle with all my weight on it an nothing gave. This vise didnt have any sentimental value to me so yours should come out fine if you take your time with the preheat and cool down. I think the channel owner is a GJ member as well.

 

[nh_yota]

You learned an expensive lesson but the good news is that it can be fixed.

 

[miketyler]

Thanks for all the comments. I haven't been on here in a while and have missed sharing projects. One thing I knew coming back here is that I would find a welcome mat and immediate appreciation for these old workhorse vices. Having history with this thing makes it really hard. Years ago I recall coming out to the garage one day to find my very young son had broken a hand tool that I had owned for a very long time. I was so upset and all I could think to say to him was "Do you know how long I've had this thing???"

We build relationships with these old tools that never let us down and I get a sense that I have let this one down now. Crazy huh? You guys give me hope that I can bring this thing back. Again, thanks for your comments.

 

[redm18]

You might look into brazing it. I see a lot of that for repairing castings on the youtubes.

 

[Mohawk Dave]

If that were mine and had sentimental attachments, I would burn the bejeezus out of the cast with a torch to remove oils and then I would use epoxy. 3M DP420 or DP460. I use this epoxy a lot. Stronger than welding pound for pound (on clean steel)....but even with this application it will still be plenty strong to use as a 3rd hand relegated to lighter duty stuff.

The epoxy route will be much cheaper, faster, and cleaner looking than a proper braze job.

I have expoxied cast iron...the lid on the gearbox of lathe broke in half and this stuff worked perfect.

 

[The Cobbler]

Keith Rucker on Youtube just did a restoration on a vice that was brazed on the slide. he felt it was done at the factory .
done properly it is doable

 

[trackwelder]

I’ve welded several of them. Clean well and vee out the area to be welded. Pre heat in a propane gas grill to 500 degrees. Use a high nickel rod and weld using small stringer passes no more than an inch at a time. Needle scale each pass well to stress release. Try and keep the inter pass temp as close as possible. Reheat the weld area as needed. When the part is welded out put it back in the grill and slowly lower the temperature of the grill back to ambient temperature.

This is how an old timer taught me many years ago. I have welded many items over the years this way with great success.

 

[M635_Guy]

...and I'm sick that I was so stupid to let this happen. This is a family vise that came out of my dad's shop. I'm just sick now. I know it will never have the strength it had before but can cast be welded? I've heard that it can but maybe shouldn't in this type application. Are there any parts sources for these?

I'm glad to hear so many folks talk about how it can be repaired. I'm sentimental about some tools, and that would definitely be one of them. Worth the time and/or investment to keep it running.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

Here's another repair. I got the price extremely right on this one so I couldn't let it pass me by. The previous owner had it for decades and used it in a commercial shop. He got it from the original owner who had broken it and done the repair many years before selling it. The previous owner said it was used pretty hard in his shop by many people. I plan to clean up the braze and polish it like the steel parts. No its not perfect. But at a 90% discount it's just a scar to me.

 

[drivesitfar]

Mike: I wish I owned a replacement dynamic jaw for your old 4.5 inch Athol cause I’m pretty certain you would appreciate it and treat the vise better in the future.

I started the vise repair 101 thread in vintage tools about 8 years ago so members would have a place to post these kinds of issues and then other members could help or see how these were addressed. after a few weeks threads like this one seem to disappear unless the person that started it keeps it moving with more posts. A lot of the guys on your thread post over there but it will be easier to find on the 101 thread later if you post over there too. AND others that watch that thread might have other solutions or maybe even a replacement part.

The person I mentioned that does brazing in my area is a pro and you sometimes can’t tell where his braze is and it’s usually a good working vise after he’s done so that might be an option if you have a guy in your part of the world or maybe you’d want to braze it yourself and learn.

Sorry for your loss and best of luck moving forward. I might also post your vise with your story in the big vise thread cause I’m pretty sure some of the guys on that thread own a 4.5 inch Athol vise they might be sitting on a shelf and willing to sell it. A wise man told me a long time ago if you can fix the problem with money it’s not a problem.

 

[exmaxima1]

My first impression was that it was a counterfeit vise as I've never seen such bad castings on a US-made vise. Many deep pores and what looks like body filler under some of the paint. Did Athol move to imported parts at some time?

 

[drivesitfar]

Ex: if I recall correctly Athol sold (or might have always been owned by) to Starrett. AND as far as I know Starrett always made their vises in USA until they quit making them 20+ years ago. That rough cast could have been spilled acid or other chemical?

 

[exmaxima1]

Drives, if that's the case I'd have to add "found as sunken treasure" to the possibilities.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Or...You could buy the same vise from someone and cannibalize it for parts.

Here's the same vise on eBay for $200. Maybe the seller would relent on the "local pickup only"? Gives you a price point to compare to someone welding it for you.

Vintage Athol Machinists Vise 624-1/2 (Local Pickup Only) | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Vintage Athol Machinists Vise 624-1/2 (Local Pickup Only) at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

 

[PierceA]

miketyler: sorry to read about your experience with a family heirloom vise. I have a couple of them and I remember how pissed I was at myself when I wasn't paying enough attention and cut a groove in the top of both jaws with a portaband saw. And that was minor, like a papercut compared to your damaged vise..

As many have posted above, yes it can be welded. I have welded a lot of vises. The preheat, keep it hot, needle-scale or at minimum use a slag-hammer and beat on the weld to chip off the slag and stress relieve it, and short 1" welds are also important.

The Athol 4.5" vises are relatively common, so waiting a bit for a parts-vise to show up might be a good idea. I know i have several Athol vises from 4" through 5". I'll look to see if i have an Athol 4.5" one that is a parts donor vise..

Since this vise has sentimental value, I'd repair it, but then find a suitable additional vise to use as your daily user vise..

Just a basic hint: when using a vise, if you are tempted to use a cheater bar, DON'T.. it will usually break the mainscrew, nut or the dynamic jaw tower like you vise did.. or turn the handle into a pretzel.

Regarding using epoxy, it won't work for anything but holding it together to put the vise on a shelf.. Epoxy does not work well in tension. or the bond to substrates hold well under tension. Under shear, epoxy isn't too bad. But still not close to original casting or welding or brazing. Epoxy works well holding a chunk of iron in a hole it got punched out of by a connecting rod, or similar situation. But it will not hold under the stresses on a dynamic jaw in a vise..

My experience with Athol vises is that the iron castings have a relatively rough outer surface.. like the casting sand was a very large grain sand.. and most Athol vises look better after a bit of 'dressing' of the rough spots, especially on the lettering on the vise..
The iron is very heavy, seems to be tougher than other vises' iron. But the only true way to know that is to do stress-to-destruction testing, and we don't do that ..

If you were not 1500 miles away, I'd invite you over and set you up to do the repair yourself, but that's a hell of a long drive !!

Let us know how your repair or replacement goes.

Best of luck,
PierceA

 

[toolmiser]

My Dad would have said if it can't take a little abuse, we'll get something that can. After some use of foul language.

 

[miketyler]

Mike: I wish I owned a replacement dynamic jaw for your old 4.5 inch Athol cause I’m pretty certain you would appreciate it and treat the vise better in the future.

I started the vise repair 101 thread in vintage tools about 8 years ago so members would have a place to post these kinds of issues and then other members could help or see how these were addressed. after a few weeks threads like this one seem to disappear unless the person that started it keeps it moving with more posts. A lot of the guys on your thread post over there but it will be easier to find on the 101 thread later if you post over there too. AND others that watch that thread might have other solutions or maybe even a replacement part.

The person I mentioned that does brazing in my area is a pro and you sometimes can’t tell where his braze is and it’s usually a good working vise after he’s done so that might be an option if you have a guy in your part of the world or maybe you’d want to braze it yourself and learn.

Sorry for your loss and best of luck moving forward. I might also post your vise with your story in the big vise thread cause I’m pretty sure some of the guys on that thread own a 4.5 inch Athol vise they might be sitting on a shelf and willing to sell it. A wise man told me a long time ago if you can fix the problem with money it’s not a problem.

Thanks for the info. I didnt realize there was a forum for vise causalities. Can an admin move it? I hate cluttering up the forum with dupes.

 

[drivesitfar]

Probably won’t remove thread to inside another so if you have time please post your first post with maybe a few more details and lots of pics to the 101 thread and see if any others have ideas for you. AND put a link in for this thread cause a lot of hood ideas from members ended up on this thread that others would like to see in the future too.

good luck and hope you find a great dynamic from another Athol to make yours like before the accident.

 

[miketyler]

miketyler: sorry to read about your experience with a family heirloom vise. I have a couple of them and I remember how pissed I was at myself when I wasn't paying enough attention and cut a groove in the top of both jaws with a portaband saw. And that was minor, like a papercut compared to your damaged vise..

As many have posted above, yes it can be welded. I have welded a lot of vises. The preheat, keep it hot, needle-scale or at minimum use a slag-hammer and beat on the weld to chip off the slag and stress relieve it, and short 1" welds are also important.

The Athol 4.5" vises are relatively common, so waiting a bit for a parts-vise to show up might be a good idea. I know i have several Athol vises from 4" through 5". I'll look to see if i have an Athol 4.5" one that is a parts donor vise..

Since this vise has sentimental value, I'd repair it, but then find a suitable additional vise to use as your daily user vise..

Just a basic hint: when using a vise, if you are tempted to use a cheater bar, DON'T.. it will usually break the mainscrew, nut or the dynamic jaw tower like you vise did.. or turn the handle into a pretzel.

Regarding using epoxy, it won't work for anything but holding it together to put the vise on a shelf.. Epoxy does not work well in tension. or the bond to substrates hold well under tension. Under shear, epoxy isn't too bad. But still not close to original casting or welding or brazing. Epoxy works well holding a chunk of iron in a hole it got punched out of by a connecting rod, or similar situation. But it will not hold under the stresses on a dynamic jaw in a vise..

My experience with Athol vises is that the iron castings have a relatively rough outer surface.. like the casting sand was a very large grain sand.. and most Athol vises look better after a bit of 'dressing' of the rough spots, especially on the lettering on the vise..
The iron is very heavy, seems to be tougher than other vises' iron. But the only true way to know that is to do stress-to-destruction testing, and we don't do that ..

If you were not 1500 miles away, I'd invite you over and set you up to do the repair yourself, but that's a hell of a long drive !!

Let us know how your repair or replacement goes.

Best of luck,
PierceA

Thanks for the reply Pierce! In truth the vice is probably overkill for my typical work. My dad hat it in our old garage and used it for working on washers and dryers in his home appliance repair biz. I mostly do antique jukebox and clock restoration so the stud replacement was a bit out of character for me. However I'm about to start restoring an old Challenger so business will be picking up.

I'm reading all the replies here and thank you all for weighing in. I am interested in trying the brazing solution. Assume it's preferred since a flame will preheat the cast material better than a MIG arc would? What rod material would I use? Besides heat any prep to promote better bond of the weld? I'm not sure I understand the "needle scaling" practice?

 

[M635_Guy]

I hate cluttering up the forum with dupes.

This thread is the opposite of clutter IMHO - interesting, helpful and community-building

 

[drivesitfar]

Many posts on brazing on vise repair 101 thread and probably several others on GJ. From what I’ve heard since I’m only a mug welder and hobby at best is done guys preheat and. I’ll down in bbq and shop ovens (not used for cooking) or even smokers. Some cool down in a pile of sand or wrap it in a neat treated fireproof blanket.

I agree this is a good thread and unless it’s put in a bigger thread with a link it will be hard to find in a couple months and impossible later.
good luck

 

[miketyler]

Probably won’t remove thread to inside another so if you have time please post your first post with maybe a few more details and lots of pics to the 101 thread and see if any others have ideas for you. AND put a link in for this thread cause a lot of hood ideas from members ended up on this thread that others would like to see in the future too.

good luck and hope you find a great dynamic from another Athol to make yours like before the accident.

Will do- thanks man!

 

[miketyler]

This thread is the opposite of clutter IMHO - interesting, helpful and community-building

Oh no, I meant creating a duplicate. There's great info here and I'm taking note of all the responses. Will probably do as was suggested and create a new post in the focused group and link to this one. Again, I appreciate all the advice here (no pun intended)

 

[PierceA]

Hi Miketyler. When brazing cast iron, use regular brazing rod. The needed heat range is red heat, just below molten iron/steel temperature. Because of the relatively cooler temperature needed, brazing almost never creates new cracks in cast iron.
Brazing is much like soldering, a metal different from the parent cast iron is used that will strongly bond to the iron, holding the pieces together with the strength of the brass.

When Tig, Mig, or stick welding, the iron is locally heated to molten metal at the point of the weld. As the iron cools, iron forms a crystal-like structure that shrinks, and can or will cause a crack to develop right next to the weld just made.
Hammering on a fresh weld, while still red if possible, will take some of the heat stresses out of the welded area and reduces the chance of cracks developing. Keeping the welding area hot with a torch while the welding process is on going is the main way to prevent cracking. Slow cooling by burying the welded item in sand, is a common way to slow the cooling process so the heat-created stresses have time to spread out, and not be localized, creating cracks.
A 'needle-scaler' is an air operated 'gun-like' device that has 20-30 hard 1/8" diameter protruding steel 'needles' that are held against and run over a weld. The needles hammer in and out rapidly like many small hammers. A needle scaler works well to stress-relieve a welded area on cast iron.
If my description of a needle scaler, doesn't make sense, look for one on the Harbor Freight website, or some other welding tools site.

Hope this helps.
PierceA

 

[Firebrick43]

I didn't think that could be done to one of those Athols.

Any thing can be done to an Athol if you push hard enough!

 

[PierceA]

My policy: if putting all my weight or all the muscle I can onto a handle or tool isn't doing 'the job'.. Go to a bigger or more capable tool.. this lesson I have learned the 'hard way' many, WAY TOO MANY times.. LOL. I guess that means I didn't 'learn' the first time or two?

This nice family vise can be repaired and will function again. It will just take some time to sort out the logistics to get it done.

PierceA

 

[Corndoggeh]

If youre worried about strength, Fireball tool tested an old vise just like yours with a braze repair alongside other new ones and it held up very well. Its possible it might not be as strong as it once was but if you have the means, or know a shop, you can braze it back to near original strength.

 

[gregs]

I welded a rigid vise 30 years ago when I didn’t know any better. Clamped it together, vee’d it out with a die grinder and then welded it together with nickel rod and a ac buzz box. No internet back then to consult. I did peen the **** out of it between welds and just let it air cool. Can’t remember if I preheated it or not.

Then it got mounted outside one a steel post set in concrete. Since it was already broken it became the vise you could beat on and not worry. Still in use today.