I need a permit to plug in a cord?!

[StaggeringGoat]

So, today I show up at my shop and there is a big orange sign on the door. "STOP WORK", from the county electrical inspector. I have, on the outside of my shop a few security lights that aren't wired up to his standards.

Here's the thing. Nobody was around when the inspector was there. The wiring is exposed so he could see it, but has no way to know whether it's hooked up or not. Is it illegal to hang romex around as a decoration? Some of the wires he is probably refering to are old, abandoned, and cut off.

I will concede that the inspector is right, the wiring on my lights outside is bad. I've got exposed romex and some exposed wire nuts. That said I didn't do that, it was like that when I moved in. They make it sound like I just installed this.

Here's my problem: None of this is actually hard wired into the building. It all plugs into an extension cord. Part of the extension cord is made out of romex from one light to another.

Is this inspector full of ****? Do they actually have any authority over things I PLUG INTO AN OUTLET?! As far as I'm concerned I don't need a permit to plug in a lamp. Wrong? My lights outside aren't any different than hanging christmas lights with extension cords. And they were unplugged, as they always are when unattended, when the inspector was there.

How can they threaten to shut off my utilities for hanging wires that aren't even energized?

 

[wolflrv]

Yeah..apparently they can and will do that! I had a similar situation a couple of years ago. I had built my standalone shop and a buddy had helped me wire it. No inspection ever done. Then I had to replace the crappy main house breaker box, which has the main for the shop plugged in and run with burial wire over to the shop. I had to have an inspection to certify the new breaker box and the inspector sees the shop and the run I made and says "What's this??" Then he wants to inspect the shop too. I was like...what for?? That's not the work being done. He said, he's authorized to inspect any and all electrical connections on the property for safety at any time. Luckily my wiring passed, but it could of been really bad.

If you have old wiring that's not even hooked up, I'd call them out to go over it with you and probably remove the old stuff to simplify the issue. Make sure all your stuff is buttoned up and they'll probably OK it.

Good luck...!

 

[StaggeringGoat]

Well, basically the thing is I don't want to fix it. I consider it temporary, due to the fact that it is not hard wired to anything. I do need to get rid of the old abandoned wires but the inspector is an idiot if he's calling me out on that.

Imagine this: I hang a string of ten work lights outside and plug them into my wall outlet. I wouldn't need a permit for that right? My setup is just a hillbilly version of the same thing....

 

[StaggeringGoat]

I found some information from the county about where permits are specifically NOT required. This is what it says for electrical:

A permit shall not be required for minor repair work, including the replacement of lamps or the connection of approved portable electrical equipment to approved permanently installed receptacles.

Does that mean anything I plug in is supposed to have UL approval or whatever? I'm not allowed to make my own lamp, for example?

 

[green.bubbly]

I am not an electrician and I am certainly not an inspector but I think it all comes down to intent. While technically, you may be just plugging in an extension cord, what is the intent behind doing it. If you want to use the fact that you are just plugging in extension cords, what would prevent you from wiring your house using plugged in extension cords?

Even hanging Christmas lights outside, you are still required to use approved methods. You could not run romex across the driveway to plug in the lights. You could not have exposed wires running your lights. Something must have caught his attention to make him stop and see what is going on. It is my opinion that if he sees something unsafe, he has the right to investigate.

Think about a construction site. Extension cords plugged in and running everywhere. Even though they are just extension cords, they still have to be safe. Having a bunch of nicked wire or exposed connections is very unsafe.

 

[StaggeringGoat]

Think about a construction site. Extension cords plugged in and running everywhere. Even though they are just extension cords, they still have to be safe. Having a bunch of nicked wire or exposed connections is very unsafe.

I will agree with you there. The romex needs to be replaced. But I think I'm just going to buy a couple outdoor extension cords and splitters and wire it up that way. Is that illegal? I'll just make sure everything has the right outdoor L-15 type plug and is UL approved. We're only talking about maybe 30 feet of wiring here.

Part of the issue is that this is an industrial shop I rent, so technically I'm not even allowed to get a permit without an electrician. Also I don't really want to install anything permanent.

I'd sure like to know what the hell the cheif electrical inspector for the county was doing snooping around my shop. This is totally out of the blue...it's been wired this way for years...

 

[V-10 Killer]

I'd suggest just giving him a call and discussing your situation/intent.
I've done that with my electrical inspector many times. He's a pretty good guy. As long as you're straightforward with him, he'll be realistic with you.
Just tell him what was there, and what you want/need and he'll let you know what you can do to do it in an approved way.

 

[jmauld]

I found some information from the county about where permits are specifically NOT required. This is what it says for electrical:


Does that mean anything I plug in is supposed to have UL approval or whatever? I'm not allowed to make my own lamp, for example?

Is the lamp that you're plugging in portable, or is it screwed to a stud?

I agree with V10, give the guy a call and discuss with him what's going on and find out what your options are.

 

[nehog]

I don't know of any place where you can use an extension cord/plug to connect a permanently mounted fixture... At least any place that had building codes!

 

[spongerich]

I don't think it's a matter of getting a permit, I think it's a matter of creating unsafe conditions and using materials and equipment that aren't UL listed for that application.

I'd also be more concerned with burning your shop down than putting one over on the inspector. There's a reason that electrical codes exist.

Talk to your inspector. You might be able to run all the wiring and just have an electrician make the final connections. Personally, I wouldn't risk a fire to save a few hundred dollars. I'd also be concerned that your landlord's insurance wouldn't cover him if you caused a fire and he'd have every right to sue you for the damages.

 

[lametec]

Part of the issue is that this is an industrial shop I rent.......

.......

I'd sure like to know what the hell the cheif electrical inspector for the county was doing snooping around my shop.

Landlord was unhappy with your wiring and called the inspector?

 

[MoonRise]

Hmmm, whole bunch o' issues going on there.

In no particular order:

- No, you can not use a piece of 'Romex' as an "extension cord".

- You are correct in that for non-residential usage one is generally not 'allowed' to do their own wiring, per the usual owner-occupied residential wiring DIY exemption that is in most electrical codes (although some areas, such as Chicago, restrict any and ALL electrical work to be done only by licensed electricians).

- You do not need an electrical permit to plug in an extension cord (see above about Romex is NOT an extension cord) into an outlet (that is properly wired), but you still have to use the end device (light, drill, saw, whatever) and the extension cord and the outlet and the circuit 'properly'.

- Non-residential use, and especially 'work' use, triggers all sorts of safety requirements above and beyond homeowner stuff. Stuff like OSHA requirements.

- Permanent (or semi-permanent) lighting attached outside via some exposed NM cable (aka 'Romex') with some 'open-air' wire-nut connections and that has a plug connected to that NM/Romex which plugs into a wall outlet? Ugly, unsafe, wrong, and so forth.

- Not your building, not your lights, not your wiring,? It was all like that when you 'moved in' and you didn't do any of it but you are pretty much just using what was there beforehand? Then it's not your issue, directly. It is the building owner's issue to meet the applicable electrical codes and permits and so forth. It DOES affect you as you are the tenant and the one who is using or trying to use the building and the electricity and the electrical devices (lights).

 

[Falcon67]

Imagine this: I hang a string of ten work lights outside and plug them into my wall outlet. I wouldn't need a permit for that right? My setup is just a hillbilly version of the same thing....

LOL - the NEC calls that "Festoon lighting" and yes, there is code for it. Bottom line is - you need to fix the mess.

 

[mrb]

even if you redo it with extension cords that will still be a violation. An extension cord cannot be used as a substitue for permanant building wiring.

If the wiring was like that when you moved in, I suggest you speak to your landlord about correcting the code violations on his property.

 

[mrb]

Does that mean anything I plug in is supposed to have UL approval or whatever? I'm not allowed to make my own lamp, for example?

that is correct.

 

[NWphotog]

Here's my problem: None of this is actually hard wired into the building. It all plugs into an extension cord. Part of the extension cord is made out of romex from one light to another.

Is this inspector full of ****? Do they actually have any authority over things I PLUG INTO AN OUTLET?! As far as I'm concerned I don't need a permit to plug in a lamp.

Nope the inspector is right. You mention quite a few code violations that warrant his response. It is his job to do what he did.

 

[Falcon67]

Follow up on Festoon - just some stuff you might get hit with on that...
http://www.escondido.org/Data/Sites/1/pdfs/Building/InfoGuideline26.pdf

 

[NWphotog]

I'd suggest just giving him a call and discussing your situation/intent.
I've done that with my electrical inspector many times. He's a pretty good guy. As long as you're straightforward with him, he'll be realistic with you.
Just tell him what was there, and what you want/need and he'll let you know what you can do to do it in an approved way.

x4 .....

 

[StaggeringGoat]

Landlord was unhappy with your wiring and called the inspector?

The landlord is in fact the person responsible for this wiring. Like I said it was there when I moved in. Obviously it shouldn't have been...

Hmmm, whole bunch o' issues going on there.

In no particular order:

- No, you can not use a piece of 'Romex' as an "extension cord".

Just for the sake of arguement. Let's say I buy a new 25 foot roll of Romex and I install two L-15 plugs on each end. Now it's an extension cord. If I plug that in and use it for, let's say my leaf blower, that's illegal?

 

[Gooch]

The landlord is in fact the person responsible for this wiring. Like I said it was there when I moved in. Obviously it shouldn't have been...


Just for the sake of arguement. Let's say I buy a new 25 foot roll of Romex and I install two L-15 plugs on each end. Now it's an extension cord. If I plug that in and use it for, let's say my leaf blower, that's illegal?

NM cable can't be used as an extension cord, it is a wiring method. not to mention romex isn't UL listed for that use.

 

[mrb]

not to mention plugs are not listed for use with solid wire. Only the fine stranded wire used in portable cord. L-15 isnt a connector. 5-15 is your standard household 15 amp straight blade connector. L5-15 is a 15 amp 125v 2 pole 3 wire locking connector.

 

[StaggeringGoat]

LOL - the NEC calls that "Festoon lighting" and yes, there is code for it. Bottom line is - you need to fix the mess.

Let me rephrase that. If I buy these:
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

And hang them outside my shop so I can work on a car at night...

Does that require a permit per NEC? My county specifically says stuff like that does not require a permit when plugged into a "permanently installed receptacle".

Also those are called "temporary string lights". Can somebody define "temporary"?

 

[Norcal]

Can somebody define "temporary"?

90 days or less.

 

[StaggeringGoat]

Alright, I narrowed it down to one light. I replaced the cord with a brand new extension cord rated for indoor/outdoor use with a UL sticker plugged into a wall timer. I attached a plug to my 100w metal halide security light and plugged it into the cord. I removed the screws holding the light up and replaced them with a clamp.

Is this legal within the "temporary" part of the code at the very least?

Remember, my county says no permit is needed for "the connection of approved portable electrical equipment to approved permanently installed receptacles".


One thing is for damn sure, no electrician will be coming out to my shop. I'll replace everything with low voltage lighting if I have to.

 

[darkk]

In my area (eastern Ct.) the building inspector only inspects the *new* wiring for which you pulled a permit. He is not to purposely look for other issues. He can however call you out on any faulty/safety hazard wiring if it is obvious in the area he is inspecting...

 

[mrb]

Alright, I narrowed it down to one light. I replaced the cord with a brand new extension cord rated for indoor/outdoor use with a UL sticker plugged into a wall timer. I attached a plug to my 100w metal halide security light and plugged it into the cord. I removed the screws holding the light up and replaced them with a clamp.

Is this legal within the "temporary" part of the code at the very least?

nope.

the light has to be mounted and connected to fixed building wiring according to its instructions and NRTL listing. It is not meant for 'portable' use and you cant put a plug on it.

Does the clamp require use of a tool to remove it the light?

 

[StaggeringGoat]

Does the clamp require use of a tool to remove it the light?

Nope, just a pair of C clamps.

 

[StaggeringGoat]

Alright, what if I replace my metal halide light with this?
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...talogId=10053&productId=202071327&R=202071327

Should shut the inspector up, no?

I might just get a pair of 75w HID car headlights and run them @ 12v.

 

[scott37300]

A bunch of things are wrong here and I'm not really sure why you are so set on trying to get around the inspector instead of just doing it right. It would probably be just as cheap and easy for you to fix it right, or the other question is you already stated that it's your landlords responsibility so he should be dealing with this.

You can not use romex as an extension cord, period. The string of lights you linked to is an APPROVED device, big difference than a homemade romex extension cord. But you state you bought an extension cord to satisfy the inspector. Your light is not a PORTABLE device so can not be wired up with an extension cord, doesn't matter if you clamp it, screw it, nail it, weld it, super glue it to the building, it's not an approved temporary lighting. Now the little work light you linked to can not be attached to the building to be used for lighting. This could be considered temporary if that is what you are going for but then you have to remember that temporary means just that, it has a time limit for how long it can be up like that.

If you don't want to get an electrician in there then you should at least be asking how to do this properly instead of just getting around the inspector. I understand anyone wanting to do it themselves, I try to do everything myself within range. But I always try to do it right and not just find loop holes to get around the right way.

 

[kbs2244]

Stagger:
I think you are letting your emotions get the better of you.

While I have my share of dislike of the Gov sticking it’s nose into my life, building codes do have a good background.
Some of them have grown union friendly, politically activated, rules over the years, but the basic idea of protecting people is still there.
And sometimes you have to protect them from themselves.

From what you described everything was in place for years and has worked fine.
That is good, but that doesn’t make it right.
(If any of you electricians want to have nightmares, go down to the Caribbean and walk around looking at the wiring. It will make want to get far away ASAP. And I am talking in some big buck places.)

Most of the advice here has been good.
I would talk with your land lord.
If you have, in effect, been shut down due to something that is his responsibility then it is time to talk.
What you have described sounds like less than a days job for a pro.
It shouldn’t cost the landlord much, and he needs to spend the money to keep you as a tenant.

If you are doing things or have stuff you don’t want seen, get some cheap tarps and cover it all up.
Explain that you are just keeping the dust off.

 

[StaggeringGoat]

If you don't want to get an electrician in there then you should at least be asking how to do this properly instead of just getting around the inspector.

I know how to do it properly, but I'm not allowed to under any circumstance. Electricians only. That's what pisses me off, especially because I don't actually do anything "commercial" in my building. If I was allowed to fix it I'd run a peice of EMT with THHN wires inside to each light and problem solved.

Secondly I will not pay any money for an electrician concerning this project. I doubt the landlord feels any different, though I may be able to, or have to, force something. Interestingly there is a CITY law that says this outdoor light must be on for security, and the county is telling me to take it off.

I'm not saying I'm going to do it any particular way, there are several options, and I still have to call the inspector. I just like to know what my options are, and what the inspector's are, before we dance. I do appreciate everyone's advice.

I like the option of replacing it with low voltage lighting, thus no inspector or permits would be required. We're not talking about a lot of light here....

 

[Gooch]

I know how to do it properly, but I'm not allowed to under any circumstance. Electricians only. That's what pisses me off, especially because I don't actually do anything "commercial" in my building. If I was allowed to fix it I'd run a peice of EMT with THHN wires inside to each light and problem solved.

Secondly I will not pay any money for an electrician concerning this project. I doubt the landlord feels any different, though I may be able to, or have to, force something. Interestingly there is a CITY law that says this outdoor light must be on for security, and the county is telling me to take it off.

I'm not saying I'm going to do it any particular way, there are several options, and I still have to call the inspector. I just like to know what my options are, and what the inspector's are, before we dance. I do appreciate everyone's advice.

I like the option of replacing it with low voltage lighting, thus no inspector or permits would be required. We're not talking about a lot of light here....

who's gonna wire up the low voltage lighting transformer?

seriously, call the inspector, refer him to your landlord, problem solved.

you are making this WAY more complicated than it needs to be.


yes there is a city law requiring the light for security and safety, but the county is NOT telling you to remove it, they are telling you it needs to be installed properly.

 

[StaggeringGoat]

who's gonna wire up the low voltage lighting transformer?

The guy in China that attaches the 15/20 amp plugs to them.

 

[treasureseeker]

My concern would be the inspector at some point wanting you to pull a permit and then inspecting the rest of your electrical.

 

[trainer]

Your never going to win a fight against an inspector. Just do what he wants.

 

[John in OH]

I'd suggest just giving him a call and discussing your situation/intent.
I've done that with my electrical inspector many times. He's a pretty good guy. As long as you're straightforward with him, he'll be realistic with you.
Just tell him what was there, and what you want/need and he'll let you know what you can do to do it in an approved way.

+5 for what V-10 Killer says.

The last thing you want to do is get in a pi--ing match with a building inspector ... there is no way for you to win. Just bite the bullet and correct the wiring in the manner he advises. It sounds as if he is not far out of line regarding the questionable nature of the existing wiring.

 

[mrb]

+5 for what V-10 Killer says.

The last thing you want to do is get in a pi--ing match with a building inspector ... there is no way for you to win. Just bite the bullet and correct the wiring in the manner he advises. It sounds as if he is not far out of line regarding the questionable nature of the existing wiring.

its a commercial property. he cannot correct the wiring. he has to hire a licensed electrical contractor to pull a permit and do the work.

 

[ket-tek]

but the inspector is an idiot if he's calling me out on that.

It doesn't matter if he is an idiot or a genius, he has the authority to do what he wants either way.

It's like arguing with a cop, you aren't going to win, and if you don't like it you'll have to take it to the city judge..

Alright, I narrowed it down to one light. I replaced the cord with a brand new extension cord rated for indoor/outdoor use with a UL sticker plugged into a wall timer. I attached a plug to my 100w metal halide security light and plugged it into the cord. I removed the screws holding the light up and replaced them with a clamp.

It was originally made as a hardwire fixture, correct? So you just installed a male plug on the wires coming out of the fixture? So even if the cord and timer you installed all are fine, putting your own plug on the pigtails of a hardwire fixture wouldn't pass.

Your never going to win a fight against an inspector. Just do what he wants.

^^^What he said...

I would get the landlord involved since you say it was already like that when you moved in.

The guy in China that attaches the 15/20 amp plugs to them.

Or possibly the 4 year old girl...