I need help getting stuff together for a permit.

[thrawn5499]

Hi, I have an attached garage that is 20' x 24'. The main door is on the eave side which makes it load bearing. I want to make a door in the rear for a pull through to the back yard. I understand this is also a load bearing wall. I have a simple plan drawn up, but i am not sure what details need to be on the drawing. I thought I would try submitting it online for the permit and figured if it was not approved then I would at least find out what I needed to do. The plan was rejected (which was not really a surprise) but no reason was given. I was using two 1 3/4" x 11 7/8" x 10' LVL 1.9E to span 111 inches. my main door is 16' and it uses two 2x12's with 1/2 ply. It was put in 30 years ago and has not sagged yet. I know my two lvl's would be even stronger. I live in St. Charles County in Missouri if that helps. Maybe someone on the forums lives in the area and has gotten a permit and knows what I need to do? I am new to the whole permit thing. I grew up on a farm and my dad built our house. When ever he added a new room or did any remodeling, he just bought the stuff and built it. No permits no inspection. I decided to check if there were any restriction before just doing this job, and of course I need a drawing and a permit. Fine I will pay there fine, I mean fee and do it right. I just need to know what they want to see. I attached my plan I submitted as a starting point. I figured if it was rejected fine, I would at least know what they wanted. If it got the job done good, it was quick and easy. problem is neither of those happened. Thanks for the help!

 

[thrawn5499]

I called them to see if they could give me any information, and they said it was rejected because it falls under the city of St. Charles code enforcement/permitting jurisdiction. I went to their site and looked at what I need. Holy cow! I am at a loss for words! I thought this was going to be a simple weekend project. I might spend $200 on it and half of that was for the LVL's. I have all the other hardware and lumber I need for the project. I figured I would build a temporary support for the roof, frame the door in the rear wall put up the LVL's and then be done in one long day. That's the way I would have done it... Maybe the requirements are typical, maybe it is just a shock since it is my first time doing a project where I need a permit. But I don't understand why they need half of this stuff. 14 pages of stuff!. I am sure that a lot of it does not apply to me, like the sewer ect... But how do I even begin with this process? the parts that look like they might be needed for me are
IMPROVEMENT PLAN APPLICATION CHECKLIST
All Improvement Plans submitted for a permit shall address the following items on the plans for review by
the Department of Public Works. Applicants shall check off each item provided on the plans. Attach a
separate letter explaining reasons why any item below is not provided for on the plans.
An up-to-date version of the City of St. Charles, Missouri Code of Ordinances can be found at Sullivan
Publications.
General Information
Plans shall be submitted on 24” x 36” sheets (Preferred)
 Address all conditions of the Planning and Zoning Commission approval.
 All plan sheets shall be signed and sealed by a registered professional engineer.
 Show the locations of all existing entrances on both sides of the street, within 300 feet of any
proposed entrance.
 Identify the property by lot lines and location, including dimensions; angles and size, correlated with
the legal description of the property.
 Show natural features such as trees, streams, rivers, lakes, drains, topography, and similar features.
 Show existing manmade features such as buildings, structures, easements, existing utilities such as
water and sewer lines etc., excavations, bridges, culverts and drains.
 Show location of the site and its geographic relation to neighboring properties showing all adjacent
buildings and roads within 100 feet.
 Include existing topography a minimum of 50’ outside of property lines.
 All sign locations and sizes must be approved separately. Remove any sign references from the
plans. Any proposed signs located on plans should be noted that their size, type and location are to
be approved under a separate submittal.
 Include a north arrow and scale on all plan sheets. The plan sheets shall be drawn to a standard
scale and should be uniform. The north arrow should never point to the bottom of the page.
 Proposed improvements should stand out from existing conditions on the page by using bolder line
weights.
 Provide a legend on all plan sheets and others as necessary.
 Show all utility relocations.
 All street lighting shall be Ameren approved/supplied LED lighting.
 Dimension all non-typical features.
 Provide traffic control plans for construction within existing roadways. Include accommodations for
pedestrians where necessary.
 For new developments show survey ties with coordinates. At least 3 ties are required.
 Developments may be required to submit a traffic study showing the impacts to public roadways.
 Upon final approval a sealed set of plans shall be submitted in *.pdf form on a compact disk. Format
of the *.pdf file shall be in accordance with City Requirements.
Cover Sheet Information
 Provide a location map of the site with north indicated.
 Indicate the USGS benchmark used for all survey data. All topographic data shall directly relate to
USGS data.
 Provide a basis for bearing to establish how north was determined. Show north arrow on all plan
sheets.
 Use MO State Plane Coordinates. Zone, Datum, Projection
 List the City of St. Charles General Notes on the cover sheet.
1. All improvements constructed herein shall comply with the Code of Ordinances of the City of St.
Charles.

 

[matt_i]

"All plan sheets shall be signed and sealed by a registered professional engineer."

Going to get a bit expensive.

 

[thrawn5499]

"All plan sheets shall be signed and sealed by a registered professional engineer."

Going to get a bit expensive.

Yeah I saw that! My simple project that would make my life a lot easier looks like it is never going to happen. I can't imagine spending the money this is going to take for such a simple project. I would just do it anyway but don't want to screw myself when it come time to sell the house!

 

[DougWil]

You need to physically go down there and talk to them about what you want to do.
Bring a simple drawing of the building on the lot to scale and a drawing of the door you want to add.

They might be willing to waive the sealed drawings and other requirements.

Or all of those listed requirements don't even apply to what you propose.

 

[benjamintmiller]

I agree with Doug, go talk to them, be friendly, and make it obvious that you're not an idiot.

My city has similar requirements on their website, and yet I've personally seen two people obtain a garage permit with a single hand drawn sketch.

 

[thrawn5499]

Ok thanks for the advice! I made a quick sketch of the lot with the house setting on it. is this the type of thing I need along with my first drawing with the door framing? Do I need to add more detail or anything, or is this good enough to take to see them? Thanks again for the help

 

[bczygan]

This is going to be in the back yard? Is there a room over the garage or just roof framing?

Is it frame and siding or frame with brick veneer? If siding, then:

Do all your re-framing inside the garage, including installing the beam. Even install the garage door, if possible.

One weekday, when everyone is at work, hang a tarp from the gutter to cut the view and noise, and cut away the siding and trim out the exterior of the opening.

Screw all that other stuff. Did you get all your paperwork back from the guys you submitted to? Just hope they didn't inform the proper jurisdiction.

Another case where you should have found out everything anonymously before proceeding.

Bill

 

[Chris705]

On your detail of the framing add some notes.
Such as what is the framing member under your LVL's. I assume it is a 2x4... Note about how you intend to temporarily support roof trusses by framing a wall centering studs under trusses, and that temp wall will have top and bottom plates. Give info about new OH door or who will be doing the installation if you happen to know. On your plan add dimensions to locate the new door. Cloud that area (squiggly) line circling that area to draw attention that is the area of work. Sounds like you know what's needed to do the work, try to demonstrate that on your plan. Maybe list in a detailed note set that itemizes how you will tackle the work, item by item. Let us know how it goes when you meet with the municipality. If rejectect we can offer more guidance. Good luck!

 

[rburke65]

Should have just done it......

 

[AnthonyJ124]

If it helps your confidence, I read over our town's requirements for permitting and it was VERY intimidating. I went into the office with a detailed computer sketch of what I was doing (kitchen), a printed picture of existing cabinets and printed invoices for the cabinets and countertops to prove approximate project value. The building commissioner looked it over and said as long as I did what I had laid out, I wouldn't need a building permit, only that if I touched any wiring or plumbing that he would recommend an electrical and plumbing permit.

Long story short going into the office and explaining that I've never dealt with a project this size and that I'd appreciate any guidance into the process, AND having my ducks in a row, obviously afforded a bit of leeway. By the book my permit could have been $500-1000.

 

[BillK]

Ok thanks for the advice! I made a quick sketch of the lot with the house setting on it.

T,
When you bought your house you should have gotten a copy of the lot survey that shows the lot lines and your house as it sits on the lot. That was what I used when I built my detached garage. Just make a copy of it. It is a little more "official" looking than a hand drawing and might help your case.

 

[thrawn5499]

Thanks so much for all of the great advice. I will work from the advice given and put together a more detailed drawing. I will let you know how this goes.

 

[crguy]

All that convoluted permit **** & fees are why a lot of us just go ahead and build stuff without asking.

 

[DougWil]

All that convoluted permit **** & fees are why a lot of us just go ahead and build stuff without asking.

Yeah and why whenever you or your heirs go to sell it, it can open a big can of $$$ worms.

 

[DougWil]

Thanks so much for all of the great advice. I will work from the advice given and put together a more detailed drawing. I will let you know how this goes.

Yes, keep us posted, I am thinking/hoping they work with you.

 

[Angelfire]

It can be an intimidating process to be sure....thank the lawyers for that! What I found was most of what they wanted I already had, just had to dig it up....site survey, etc... You could either draw it up yourself or for a pretty low fee, I'd think a draftsman could run you one sheet of drawings for pretty cheap. The engineers stamp may be another story. I highly recommend putting together as much of what they want and then head in to the inspector for a "conversation". The inspectors I've had have all been reasonable and easy to work with so given this is something small, they may waive the engineers stamp. What you don't want to do is show up with nothing and hope to walk out with a permit. Show them you've done your homework and hopefully they'll waive a requirement or two.
Cheers.

 

[MushCreek]

A supplier for the LVL's *might* do a an engineered drawing, but being an existing building complicates things. When I ordered the LVL's and I-Joists for the floor of our new house, they came with stamped and sealed drawings included in the price of the materials. Same with my roof trusses.

 

[pmiranda]

Sounds like a lot of boilerplate to cover their butts on any possible project. I seriously doubt they really care about most of that for adding a door to a non-living area. Having said that, some municipalities are using any excuse to force code upgrades to push ADA and energy efficiency upgrades so tread carefully. I'd call them up and ask if you really need all that stuff for adding an exterior door to a garage. Also, what Bill said matters a great for how much load it needs to bear. Just the roof? snow load? wind load? Is there any living space above the garage? Storage trusses?
On a slow day, the local lumberyard or even big box store that sells you the LVL and door should be able to help you with the numbers or at least with the tables to figure it out for yourself.
It's pretty straightforward for folks that have done it before, but you do want to get it right so you don't end up with a bunch of cracked joints in your brickwork or drywall the first time a good storm blows through.

 

[sst1]

National Lumber will stamp the plans for free if you Promise to look at their stock when buying your material.

 

[benjamintmiller]

When I applied for my most recent permit, the counter guy made a site plan for me using the city's GIS data. He printed off the existing site diagram, drew the new deck on it, and added it to the packet.

You REALLY should go to the permit office and talk to them.

As I understand it, most of these regulations are to prevent unscrupulous builders from constructing shoddy buildings. Do you really think an electrician needs to prepare a site plan when installing an outlet? They need a permit for that, and dollars to donuts the city only requires a site plan when applicable.

 

[pmiranda]

Yeah, I would 1000% just make a copy of the plat you got when you bought/built the place and that's your site plan... since you're not changing a single thing about the site!

 

[jrb2]

I would not have asked anybody anything. Sometimes its better to ask forgivness than permission.

 

[Kevin54]

When I did my garage addition, I did all of my own drawings, and everything was fine with the County Engineer to get my permit. A lot of the stuff that you read is for your standard construction people and not your everyday DIY'er.

The question I have is.......is your garage on a slab, or is it on a foundation with a stem wall? If you have a stem wall, you want to include that in your drawings.

I modified your PDF some to possibly help you along. Remove your LVL note, your jack stud note, and your red line note and add in the other notes I made. What I did doesn't really say anymore than yours but engineers like a lot of notes and not simplicity. LOL!!! What I put on there is basically the same thing except for the long version.

One other thing, on your jack studs......is the inner most jack stud going to sit on the concrete, or is it going to sit on the bottom plate? Your drawing is kind of screwed up there and needs to be corrected. And if it is going to sit on concrete, it will need to be made from treated lumber, or it will need to be a 2 piece jack stud with the bottom 12" give or take made from treated so it doesn't rot from any water.

 

[jives]

There are several GOOD pieces of advice here. One, use the plath or deed survey you received when you purchased the house. Copy and draw on it. Two, have a basic, computer-generated/drawn sketch of the framing for the new opening. On the plan have the load specs for the LVL beams and provisions for moving electrical outlets. Three, and not mentioned yet, is a traffic plan for the new garage door. Garage plans have auto traffic (i.e., driveways) shown. Will your new garage "backdoor" open up to a septic field? Underground oil tank?

THEN, go talk to them

 

[bczygan]

Most places want a permit pulled for any structural change. So adding a beam for a header over this new opening would count. And an engineers approval of the sizing of that beam covers their butts. I would just do it myself, since I could size the beam properly. I don't see any problem down the road when selling the house. Jurisdictions don't keep your plans forever, so how would they know if you added a door, or when.

Bill

 

[Chris705]

OP - Kevin has given you great notes....!!

From experience though I don't think you should waste glue on LVL's they have that waxy coating to protect them from weather....I would prefer you use the SDS screws or nailing pattern as recommended by the manufacturer.

 

[bczygan]

One other thing to consider.

Your layout shows a 16" wall on one side of the door. That will likely require a shear panel properly detailed and anchored to the foundation and roof construction. A 4' or wider width of wall there may not require this.

Bill

 

[bczygan]

So I just got off the phone with Brad at the City of St. Charles, MO Community Development.

Here's the deal.

Your application will be routed to planning first, so they will need a plot plan. Use a copy of your mortgage survey and mark where the door will go on that.

Brad said he would be OK with a plan of the area being worked on, to 1/4" scale indicating the location of the door and noting the beam size and specification. If you keep 4' of wall on either side of the door it will mean no special shear wall details will be needed. Your elevation could also help, especially if you are adding a man door.

I told him this was for easier access to lawn equipment and there would be no garage door opener, just a manual door, so no electrical permit.

He said a $75 permit fee was the minimum, up to $5,500 worth of work.

He also mentioned a couple of local lumber companies who would size the header beam based on the size of the span and roof loads, so be sure to note the garage size on the drawings and submit the lumber yards sizing with the permit application.

Easy?

Bill

 

[bczygan]

If you do go with a narrower wall adjacent to the door, here are some links to details you may need to use:
https://www.google.com/search?q=garage+shear+wall&newwindow=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjK2Ie46M3NAhWJ_R4KHSZmDPoQ_AUICCgB&biw=1088&bih=450

Some notes and wording to use.

On the plot plan:
The work is installation of an access door for lawn equipment in the existing garage wall. No additional square footage will be added to the structure.

Provide a temporary support wall at truss web bearing points at length of opening, until header is installed.

Rework siding and trim out opening for new access door.

Don't use the words demolish or demolition or garage door. This could require a demo permit. Call out the size door but call it a manual overhead access door.

If the man door is existing, call it out as such.

Dimension the depth of the garage on the plan, so the contributing area can be determined for load calcs.

Put a note on the plan indicating the roof structure. Something like existing 235# asphalt shingles on 7/16OSB deck material on 5/12 pitch engineered trusses at 24"o.c.. You could add an engineered truss drawing if you have one from the build to indicate the snow and wind loads it accommodated. Note that there is no habitable or storage space in the roof structure. This will help the lumber company with sizing the LVL's.

Note ceiling material and thickness, like: 1/2" drywall ceiling.

Be careful about calling out any paving. It may cause you to pull permits or get approvals for land use and even do erosion control. And additional hard surface may exceed allowable.

Indicate in notes how the walls will be braced, either as shear panels or just diagonally braced by sheathing or braces.

Make sure the LVL notes indicates the strength, size (depth and width), number (2) and nailing pattern for fastening together.

The lumber yards selection calculations should indicate the loads used and if you can get them sealed, all the better. The bearing requirements should be called out.

Bill

 

[kbs2244]

If this is a DIY project than is not adding any square feet to the building no permit is required in most jurisdictions.
The permit process is for profit making pros.

 

[bczygan]

If this is a DIY project than is not adding any square feet to the building no permit is required in most jurisdictions.
The permit process is for profit making pros.

Not true!

In almost all jurisdictions, if anything structural is done, even a header over a door, a permit is required. If you header off 2 rafters to install a skylight, for example.

Bill

 

[thrawn5499]

So I just got off the phone with Brad at the City of St. Charles, MO Community Development.

Here's the deal.

Your application will be routed to planning first, so they will need a plot plan. Use a copy of your mortgage survey and mark where the door will go on that.

Brad said he would be OK with a plan of the area being worked on, to 1/4" scale indicating the location of the door and noting the beam size and specification. If you keep 4' of wall on either side of the door it will mean no special shear wall details will be needed. Your elevation could also help, especially if you are adding a man door.

I told him this was for easier access to lawn equipment and there would be no garage door opener, just a manual door, so no electrical permit.

He said a $75 permit fee was the minimum, up to $5,500 worth of work.

He also mentioned a couple of local lumber companies who would size the header beam based on the size of the span and roof loads, so be sure to note the garage size on the drawings and submit the lumber yards sizing with the permit application.

Easy?

Bill

Wow!! that is just awesome! there have been so many helpful post on here if I quoted all it would pretty much double the size of the thread! I probably won't get a chance to work on these changes until next week. Right now I am swamped at work. (I do mechanical engineering/3d modeling/drafting) I was drawing this up at work while I was slow I will have to search for the site survey and get that into the drawing. I am sure I have it somewhere. Only thing I see right now that I am going to have to give some thought to is the space from the wall to the new door. it can be moved over some, but I doubt 4' will be possible and have it work. reason is I park the camper to one side of the garage to keep the other side as open as possible. But I might be able to move it more by hand... Thanks again for all the great advice and help!! I was totally lost when I started this and it looked very intimidating. Not so much now!

 

[thrawn5499]

A few more details.. There is no living space or storage above the garage. The garage uses rafters not trusses. there is no finished ceiling in the garage. eventually, I want to add some LVL's above the wall ties going the width of the garage so I can make a storage space up there, then dry wall it. That probably won't happen for a few years though. Next project will probably be the deck.

Also I will be using a carriage style door for this, not a typical overhead door. Not sure if that matters or not, just wanted to add more info about the project.

 

[Kevin54]

Wow!! that is just awesome! there have been so many helpful post on here if I quoted all it would pretty much double the size of the thread! I probably won't get a chance to work on these changes until next week. Right now I am swamped at work. (I do mechanical engineering/3d modeling/drafting) I was drawing this up at work while I was slow I will have to search for the site survey and get that into the drawing. I am sure I have it somewhere. Only thing I see right now that I am going to have to give some thought to is the space from the wall to the new door. it can be moved over some, but I doubt 4' will be possible and have it work. reason is I park the camper to one side of the garage to keep the other side as open as possible. But I might be able to move it more by hand... Thanks again for all the great advice and help!! I was totally lost when I started this and it looked very intimidating. Not so much now!

A lot of times, and in the case of my garage addition, I pulled up a shot on Google Earth, did a "Print Screen" and then pasted it into "Paint". I then added in where my property line is and added in some lines showing the new addition location, then added in some notes showing how far off the property line I was at. My restrictions are any permanent building structure be a minimum of 10' off of the property line. I was at 10'6" on my notes. Once I was done building, in reality I was at 10' 4". They were more than pleased that I use Google Earth as my site plan.

But in a way I was lucky as my property stakes show up on Google Earth. We keep an area of about 1' in diameter cleared out around the pins, and I could pick it out on G.E., which allowed me to draw my lines in paint