I need more heat!!

[roadking778]

I have a 30x50 shop with a 30K btu LP ventless wall heater, I know that it's not going to heat the shop up as warm as my house but I would like it reach about 50-60 degrees. I have R-13 insulation in walls and ceiling and an insulated 16' door. Is it possible to make a heat exchanger and let the heater warm it then use that heat somehow?

 

[6768rogues]

I might not understand what you are driving at. Your heater, if ventless, is nearly 100 percent efficient. Any heat you capture with a heat exchanger would be heat that you would have anyway.
The heater produces a certain amount of heat. Heating something that will store the heat and give it off later or slowly will not increase the amount of heat the heater creates. Storing and using the heat later or slowly will reduce the amount of heat you have now. You have a ventless heater, so you are wasting nothing. What don't I understand about your scenario?

 

[roadking778]

I did some research today and was thinking of making a heat exchanger. I would like to make my heater do double duty. I was curious if I could use the ventless heater and make a small boiler set up. I could be in outer space by thinking this would work but I've always got some hair brained idea rolling around.

 

[Steve in Mi]

30K btu LP ventless wall heater

This type heater will be putting a lot of water (a product of combustion with LP) in your shop. If you don't have a good moisture barrier protecting that R-13 insulation it won't be long before it becomes saturated and have no "R" value at all.

 

[roadking778]

I insulated the building with a product called double bubble. It's basically two layers of bubble wrap with foil backing on both sides. It's less then 3/8" thick and does and excellent job. I also thought of the moisture in the shop so I run a dehumidifier when I turn the heater on in the fall.

 

[X73]

In my opinion you don't have enough insulation if you just used double bubble. That stuff works best if used with another type of insulation such as fiberglass or cellulose. Double bubble is good for controlling RADIANT heat but not CONDUCTIVE heat. That's what the fiberglass is good for. Together they work awesome. If you have a steel building, the conductive heat loss is killing you. I think that if you add fiberglass or cellulose in the walls & ceiling you might be surprised how warm it will get with the heater you have. 6768rogues is correct that you won't gain anything with another heat exchanger.

Oh, one more thing to think of - if you do insulate better, you had better add some ventilation with that ventless heater or it could kill you since your building will be sealed up so well.

 

[roadking778]

It was killing me not knowing if it would really work so I tried it. I made a smaller model of what I was thinking of and it worked. I think all it would be good for is just to distribute the heat some where else in the shop though. I took a 1 foot long 12 inch diameter pipe and coiled the soft copper inside of it and mounted it about 6 inches about the heater. I ran the copper about 15 feet out of the pipe and made my loop using and old 110v circulating water pump I had laying around. It was a pain in the **** trying to get the whole pipe full of water but I was too far along to quit. It was far from being what I had in mind for the finished product but the basic idea was there. I was thinking about using it for in floor heat to a room in the back of my shop the parties break out in quite often. I thought I would use 2x4's for floor joists and plywood for the floor and run the copper lines just like you would in concrete. I would even insulate under the lines so it wouldn't be a complete waste of time. Does anyone think that work?

 

[Franz©]

I think I'm beginning to understand this thread finally.
Your ventless is primarily a radiational heat sourse. You're adding a heat distribution system to it by scavenging radiation BTUs and piping them via a liquid transferr method.

Now, the next step is to convert the heat in the liquid to underfloor heat. You want to do it all with copper (must be rich), and you think just attaching the copper to the bottom of a wood floor will transferr the heat from the copper tube to the floor.

If I'm right, let me know.

 

[kbs2244]

Keep the back room small and the parties big.
Body heat will warm it up just fine.

 

[X73]

In his first post, he said nothing about heating an extra room. It sounds like a waste of time when he could just get an oil filled electric heater for that room.

 

[roadking778]

Heating the party room was not the reason for trying this. I was curious if the set up would add more heat to the building. Franz I appreciate your concern for my finances but until I appoint you as my financial advisor please don't worry yourself about my check book. You have shown more concern about my money situation then my wife has in the past three years. And for that I thank you.

 

[Franz©]

Frankly Roadtoad, I don't give a damn about your financial situation, I was merely being polite. POLITE is a big consideration on this forum. Were I not being polite, I'd have pointed out you don't know what the hell you're writing about, and that you really lack communication skills, but politeness precludes me from saying that.
Since I'm being POLITE, I shan't tell you what I'd really like to. Instaed I'll just ignore the rest of your postings completely as your writings are not worthy of my time.
Have A nice day
Thank you for flying American Airlines
Enjoy 2008
Return to your regularly scheduled pleasure activity with your hand!

 

[roadking778]

Well Franz, I don't seem to be that lacking in communication skills. After all you clearly understood my last post. Maybe my communication skills are improving, now you can work on your spelling skills. It's spelled I N S T E A D. I also hope you have a prosperous 2008. Thank You for helping me narrow my choices on air lines, you are the best.

 

[Vicegrip]

Beating the horse will not make it learn to play poker any faster. You have 30K of heat and a large poorly insulated space. Spreading too little heat around will not help much. Have fun tinkering, god knows I do too. When you are done add about 80K of vented heat and or insulate well and 1/2 that and get on with the good life.

 

[D KRAGER]

This whole heat exchanger idea..... won't help at all.... it's still only 30k btu's. The heater is ventless, so you are not losing any heat thru venting. No matter what you do to it, it will still only be 30k btu's. You still need at least double the btu's. Also are you keeping it warm all the time, or just turning it on every now and then? If you are just turning it on every now and then, you probably need 150,000 btu's.

 

[MXtras]

I will agree with the above post. I have a similar space with a 75K BTU and it struggles to keep the space 50-55 on a medium-cold (30 degree) evening. 100-150K BTU sounds right for that space.

Depending on the temp differential, you are likely losing more than 20K BTU through the walls and ceiling. All of this could be fairly easily calculated and it would become clear that your heater simply does not produce enough 'volume' to heat your space.

Your heater is inadequate for your space. Typing, planning and thinking won't fix it. Neither will any kind of exchanger system. In fact, it will likely add to the problem.

Scott

 

[Uncle Buck]

I rarely post in threads like this but I was astonished at how underrated in BTU'S he is for the size of the space he is trying to heat. My little garage/shop is only 22' x 22' with no ceiling (that hurts) and well insulated walls. I use a 35 thousand BTU torpedo heater to heat it; with my small space it will take a couple of hours of run time till I can work in a t shirt for the remainder of the day at say 5-10 degrees. I have 5 thousand BTU more and a considerably smaller space so I have no idea how he is making this work!

 

[roadking778]

I do leave the heater running even when I'm not in the shop. I turn down the thermostat to low. I usually wear some light coveralls when I work in the shop but it would be great to leave those hanging up on the wall. I'll scrap the heat exchanger idea, what steps do I need to take next?

 

[X73]

I do leave the heater running even when I'm not in the shop. I turn down the thermostat to low. I usually wear some light coveralls when I work in the shop but it would be great to leave those hanging up on the wall. I'll scrap the heat exchanger idea, what steps do I need to take next?

They're all listed in THIS THREAD.

 

[Ripp]

There is a 1,500,000 btu LP/NG torpedo on E-Bay right now..Fire that baby up for a couple minutes and that should make everything toasty warm so your ventless should keep up

If it get's cold just fire the Biggun up again for a couple...While a bit extreme it would cure what ails ya!!


Note to self...Don't bid on this as the heat from the ol lady would be greater!!

 

[04 Navi]

My garage is within 50sq ft of yours and I use a 45k btu Reznor heater. It works just fine, even when it's single digits outside. I am very well insulated though and if I had to do it again I would go with a 60k btu just for the ability to raise the temp faster.

 

[russlaferrera]

When everything else fails, follow the directions. GOOGLE a heater company, answer the questions. Write down the recommended BTU requirements. Then ponder HOW you are going to accomplish your goal.

I used "The little greenhouse" They had a chart that covered most all thing to be considered, except If you are to open a large 8X10 garage in 10* weather how fast do you want heat recovery to be? I have a 30X50, 18 ft ceiling with 2, 10X16 metal doors. a 175K did it for me.

 

[Lu47Dan]

First insulate the Shop correctly ! Second get a furnace or a boiler in your fuel of choice and the correct size then , install it . A boiler is more money up front but can be zoned to heat your various spaces in your shop , you can do the same thing with forced air but the controls and duct work can get complicated . Run fin tube and a couple of fan coil units to heat the main shop and fin tube in the smaller areas . I am currently running a 115,000 Btu oil fired boiler and a fan coil unit in my 20 X 33 shop , it is well insulated . The boiler does fine , as it sets now . If I needed more heat I could add more units or put in fin tube in the shop . I have worked in my shop ,when it was -15 degrees F outside , in a t-shirt . One more thing the insulation will pay you back over time in fuel savings . JMTC . Dan

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Ventless heaters are horrid for heating garages. Besides the moisture problem, you can have problems with combustion byproducts. If you use any paints, or thinners, or solvents, they end up getting sucked into the combustion air, burned, and blown back at you. Eventually it'll make you light headed, or worse. I know this, because I heated my barn that way for years before I learned my lesson.

No...a much better choice would be a vented unit heater, a furnace, or a heat pump.

Good Luck

Phil

 

[jerry j]

ROADKING......

Insulate the attic........................

Codes here, near Detroit, used to call for R-19 min. in attics.. That has since gone up. I've had R-49 in my home for about 25 years now and it has saved both heating & cooling.. Before this last gas increase my highest winter bill was 92. to 94.00. I keep house at 72*. 2000 s.f. ...

Start with attic. (heat rises)... Look long & hard at CELLULOSE = R-3.60 to 3.75 per inch VS. blown fiberglass at approx. R-2.2 per inch......