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I want to build a roll cage.

bad_idea

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I plan on building the cage out of mild steel. What size die do I need? Is the Pro-tools Model 105HD any good? There is one for sale for $550 w/ an 1 1/2" die and the jd2 tubing notcher. The price looks good compared to retail.
 
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fourjeepin

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If you don't know, don't do it. I suggest a few weeks of research before moving forward with building your own cage. Besides material size and type, read up on triangulation. Without it, even the best materials and construction will fold up until a solid hit.

Unless of course this is for a mall cruiser. In that case, get you some water pipe and have at it.
 

thecj3man

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I built the cage in my Toyota from 1 5/8s HREW Tube. It took several hard hits over the years and held up fine.
 

t100

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if you are building one just for the looks, it doesn't really matter.

if it's gonna save your life, then 1.5 O.D. should be fine, though 1.75" O.D. would be ideal, .120" wall DOM. with 3/16" landing plates to spread the load to the floor. they should be at least 16 square inches each.

your best resource should be the various racing associations' tech books on safety equipment.

PS, I would never do a bolt-on.

get a good tube bending software, I like BendTech EZ, it's cheaper than the fancy 3D versions and has already got all the template you needed built-in.
 

64Trvlr

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A great place for info is Pirate 4X4. Go do a search on roll cages and READ up on cages, tools and design. There is a ton of info on there by a lot of good builders. There are dozens if not hundreds of threads full of tips, pics and how to do it info.

DO NOT just show up and post a thread asking for help though. lol
 

wmartin

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If you don't know, don't do it.

An interesting problem. How do people ever learn?

Most people I've met who do roll cages have struck me as good fabricators, but not as experts in materials or FEA. Do they cookbook designs? Learn as apprentices?
 

theoldwizard1

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your best resource should be the various racing associations' tech books on safety equipment.
Different sanctioning bodies and different classes have different requirements.

... 1.75" O.D. would be ideal, .120" wall DOM. with 3/16" landing plates to spread the load to the floor. they should be at least 16 square inches each.

I will also add, all joints should be gusseted with 3/16" triangles.
 

lilscorpion

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I've had the pro tools 105 and the HB302. Both are good benders.

The 105, as a manual bender, is a workout and requires a fixed mount to something like the floor or a receiver hitch (though slop in a hitch mount makes for some accuracy challenges when bending multiple or compound angles). The 105 can also be converted to air over hydraulic which makes bending easier. The disadvantage to the 105 is that you need to reset the pin on the die every 20 or so degrees (forget the exact increment) which can cause the tubing to slip in the die if you're not careful which can cause a single bend to be in multiple planes and not lay flat on the ground. It's advantage is it can bend beyond 180-degrees which is useful if you plan to make hoops (like a shock hoop or driveshaft hoop). The 105 has a friction/guide block (considered a consumable by me) that slides along the tubing which essentially pushes the tubing around the die. The disadvantage of benders like the 105 is the guide block can become damaged and gal the tubing (scratches, gouges, etc). The only fix is to replace the guide block.

The 302 is also called the one shot because it allows a single bend, up to maybe 120-degrees, without needing to reset a pin. Unlike the 105, the 302 doesn't use a guide block and is a frictionless bender which uses the die to roll the tubing off of the follower. Because the design is frictionless, this style of bender is suited to bend aluminum and other soft metals which the 105 would destroy or mangle. Because of the follower, the 302 requires a table like surface for it to rest on and the follower prevents the operator from sequencing bends right after each other as easily as the 105 because of the table top surface. Between the two I found the 302 to be superior in many ways and bends were much more repeatable.

Most cages are made from 1 3/4 tubing and use HREW (electric weld tubing that has a seam down the inside) or DOM (Drawn Over Mandrel to eliminate the seam). 1 1/2-inch tube is a little small. The min recommended diameter (I strongly recommend sticking to the NHRA requirements as a guideline) is 1 5/8 x .120 wall however, though it can be found, it's uncommon and is typically expensive as a result. It's preferred for internal cages where space is at a premium or where weight is a concern. That being said, go for 1 3/4. HREW, because of how it's formed has a less constant wall thickness and, as a result, can flatten as you bend it, possibly split at the seam, and can be more difficult to perform repeat bends. DOM, on the other hand, has a much more consistent wall thickness and, as a result, can be much easier to get good results. In either case you'll want some type of angle finder on the bender to help you figure out where you are. There are some home made versions if you want to save a buck.

I still have my 302 which I used professionally for years and has thousands of bends on it however I use it much less often now-a-days. Most that buy them build a cage or two and then store it away until they get tired of looking at it and put it up for sale. In my area (Denver), there's almost always a bender on Craigslist. Maybe look in your area and save a buck.
 

lilscorpion

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I will also add, all joints should be gusseted with 3/16" triangles.

I disagree. Plate gussets are cosmetically hideous (my opinion) and can be dangerous. 1-inch tubing gussets like this

zetapyse.jpg


Or a saddle gusset look better and a are safer.

yma9yqej.jpg


tu7ahysy.jpg
 

lilscorpion

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An interesting problem. How do people ever learn?

Most people I've met who do roll cages have struck me as good fabricators, but not as experts in materials or FEA. Do they cookbook designs? Learn as apprentices?

In the "old days" they learned from those that knew. Old timers passed on their good and/or poor designs as the gospel to the next generation. Over time natural selection weeds out the bad ones until only the next batch of old timers remains. Problem is that society is getting dumber as a whole which, over time, puts roll cage builder old timers at risk of becoming extinct. Not sure who will teach once they're all gone...
 

DCarr

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If you had mentioned what the vehicle was going to be used for you would be able to get a much better response.
 

NASTYZEN

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You can buy pre built roll cages that built already

This.^^^^^^
Reputable kit builders also have cages that were properly engineered for the purpose intended. There materials are certified.
A poorly conceived cage, can kill you, rather than save your life.

Bit like if you have a 10 dollar head, wear a 10 dollar helmet.:D
 

wmartin

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This.^^^^^^
Reputable kit builders also have cages that were properly engineered for the purpose intended. There materials are certified.
A poorly conceived cage, can kill you, rather than save your life.

I wonder if car manufacturers might release pre-designed cage layouts and a BOM. For one thing, they know how the vehicle is going to fold up.

It seems to me that the AAA Race Car and Hot Rod shop simply doesn't have the tools or brain power to do as good a job of design as a manufacturer and are really just winging it...high end pro racing shops excepted of course.
 

SM Racing

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I agree. It would help if you explained what type of vehicle. For a rock crawler type vehicle I wouldn't worry so much about the materials used, but for a high speed car application or desert racing application you are going to have to have a much better design and fabrication.

I have built many cages for SCCA/NASA etc and pretty much refuse to use any type of HREW tubing. Never want to take the chance of a seam splitting and hurting someone. Always use DOM, its not that much more expensive and its easier on the dies. I typically use 1.5x.095 or 1.75x.095. Proper design doesn't need maximum material size. I never use 3/16ths for mounting plates. I use .125 or .090 (if it is a maximum effort road race car. Cage strength comes from design and construction techniques, no so much mass of material used.




Grand Am RX8
 

DavidTK

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If you don't know, don't do it. I suggest a few weeks of research before moving forward with building your own cage. Besides material size and type, read up on triangulation. Without it, even the best materials and construction will fold up until a solid hit.

Unless of course this is for a mall cruiser. In that case, get you some water pipe and have at it.

Agree with this 100%. I'm not saying you shouldn't build your own cage, but do the research. The best built cage attached to thin, unreinforced areas is no good. I've had several race cars built and I always use a pro because I don't trust myself.
 

Outlawmws

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It is usually cheaper to buy vs. build if you have to "tool up" for the cage, and you are only doing one.

Having said that, there are many "mall cruiser' cages out there and are looks only, so do your homework if you go this route.


1-1/2 is used extensively in the sprint car and super modified circuits but these are small race cars and short spans so the larger 1-5/8 or 1-3/4 is a better choice for a Jeep.


4130 CrMo is usually the preferred material, but you should probably use TIG to do it properly, and you should get some training to weld it properly. it's not the same as welding mild steel.

A lot of race cages were (and probably still are) made of Shelby Seamless.

Gusseting was covered well by lilscorpion.

I abhor the "4x4" plate mounting touted as "adequate" (oops, posted before finishing the sentence...) even with the opposite spreader plates. Start there and then go from the bottom spreader plate and brace directly to the rig's frame, which can be a bolted on plate, (grade 8 bolts here...) Then you have a reasonable structure (assuming this is a serious cage and not for looks only... I've see the bodies of Jeeps torn complexly off the chassis in serious crashes.)
 
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cburnscrx

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In the "old days" they learned from those that knew. Old timers passed on their good and/or poor designs as the gospel to the next generation. Over time natural selection weeds out the bad ones until only the next batch of old timers remains. Problem is that society is getting dumber as a whole which, over time, puts roll cage builder old timers at risk of becoming extinct. Not sure who will teach once they're all gone...

Oh don't worry, you won't need roll cages in the future. The way we're headed we'll need full padded body suits and helmets to cross the street. You know somebody could get hurt.
 

justanengineer

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You don't "learn" on a life saving device !

Just to add, even in the engineering world we tend not to "learn" (teach yourself) how to design something that life depends on without an experienced professional guiding us. I could very easily design a bridge or roofing truss for example, but it would be considered very reckless for me to do so given a lack of civil engineering experience despite having several FEA programs and being a design engineer.

I wonder if car manufacturers might release pre-designed cage layouts and a BOM. For one thing, they know how the vehicle is going to fold up.

It seems to me that the AAA Race Car and Hot Rod shop simply doesn't have the tools or brain power to do as good a job of design as a manufacturer and are really just winging it...high end pro racing shops excepted of course.

Quite the opposite actually. No OEM is going to touch cage design for Joe Public with a ten foot pole and even low end race shops are simply assembling cages that meet fundamental design criteria laid out by professional engineers for the race's sanctioning body. Yes, theres leeway for a bit of creativity/flexibility to fit different cars, but its not much more than a contractor slightly modifying (within an acceptable limit of course) house plans that an owner bought.

OP - read a few rule books. If one doesnt apply to your situation (ie. off-roading), then Id suggest picking one thats similar for comparison's sake.
 
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wmartin

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Quite the opposite actually. No OEM is going to touch cage design for Joe Public with a ten foot pole and even low end race shops are simply assembling cages that meet fundamental design criteria laid out by professional engineers for the race's sanctioning body. Yes, theres leeway for a bit of creativity/flexibility to fit different cars, but its not much more than a contractor slightly modifying (within an acceptable limit of course) house plans that an owner bought.

Pity about the OEM's...at least for racecars that are somewhat based on off the shelf cars.

I'm looking at a book right here printed by Ford showing a roll cage design and cut list for one of their cars, but I guess it's from back when lawyers didn't rule the earth.
 

Thumper68

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When I did my first cage, for a off-road truck I spent days reading all the sanctioning bodies cage rules, this was way back before the net. What I came up with was way over built and it still bent when the truck went over on it side. big rocks do bad things to metal.

If I was to do it now I would order a weld in kit and then add to that. remember gussets and dimple dies are your friend.
 

theoldwizard1

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I have built many cages for SCCA/NASA etc and pretty much refuse to use any type of HREW tubing. Never want to take the chance of a seam splitting and hurting someone. Always use DOM, its not that much more expensive and its easier on the dies. I typically use 1.5x.095 or 1.75x.095. Proper design doesn't need maximum material size. I never use 3/16ths for mounting plates. I use .125 or .090 (if it is a maximum effort road race car. Cage strength comes from design and construction techniques, no so much mass of material used.

IMG-20130509-00065.jpg


IMG-20130509-00062.jpg
I concur, especially about "design and construction".

While I'm certain SCCA passed your design, it would not pass NASCAR or most other oval track sanctioning bodies (which is why I said before to check with your sanctioning organization)

Typical oval track cars require 3-5 horizontal bars short tube interconnecting them.

That is the PERFECT way to attach shoulder harness straps !
 

wmartin

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I concur, especially about "design and construction".

While I'm certain SCCA passed your design, it would not pass NASCAR or most other oval track sanctioning bodies (which is why I said before to check with your sanctioning organization)

Typical oval track cars require 3-5 horizontal bars short tube interconnecting them.

That is the PERFECT way to attach shoulder harness straps !

This is not a thing I know much about, but just looking at that cage, is it safe to plant a helmeted head hard against a thin cushion contacting a crossbar? It seems to me that if you took a shot from the back, you'd want some deceleration from the seat bending backwards.
 

theoldwizard1

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1-1/2 is used extensively in the sprint car and super modified circuits but these are small race cars and short spans so the larger 1-5/8 or 1-3/4 is a better choice for a Jeep.

4130 CrMo is usually the preferred material, but you should probably use TIG to do it properly, and you should get some training to weld it properly. it's not the same as welding mild steel.
Sprints and Super Mods may by smaller and lighter, but they go a LOT faster !!

There is a BIG difference between DOM (1020) and CrMo (41xx) besides welding. CrMo is "springier" (i.e. it will deflect and come back to straight with more load than 1020 DOM)
 

SM Racing

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I concur, especially about "design and construction".

While I'm certain SCCA passed your design, it would not pass NASCAR or most other oval track sanctioning bodies (which is why I said before to check with your sanctioning organization)

Typical oval track cars require 3-5 horizontal bars short tube interconnecting them.

That is the PERFECT way to attach shoulder harness straps !

Not sure I understand the design you are describing? What do you mean 3-5 horizontal bars?

This is not a thing I know much about, but just looking at that cage, is it safe to plant a helmeted head hard against a thin cushion contacting a crossbar? It seems to me that if you took a shot from the back, you'd want some deceleration from the seat bending backwards.

Yes, I would prefer more space behind the drivers seat,between the cage, but this is what happens when you try to fit a 6+ft driver in a CRX. I moved the cage back as far as possible while keeping the rear down bars at a reasonable angle.
 
OP
B

bad_idea

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Holy ****. I ask a simple question and only one or two people actually comment on my initial question. Is the pro-tools model 105 hd any good? Is $550 a good price? I never stated I was going to build one from scratch pulled square out of my ***. I appreciate everyone's concern for my safety.

I have a 79 Camaro I am building for drag racing to meet NHRA standards. I plan on buying a cage kit and modifying it (w/in NHRA standards) to suit my needs. I fit steel for a living on Navy ships, welds and fitup meeting MIL-SPECs. I know enough welders to weld high quality welds that pass X-Ray and a handful of engineers if needed.
 

lilscorpion

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Holy ****. I ask a simple question and only one or two people actually comment on my initial question. Is the pro-tools model 105 hd any good? Is $550 a good price? I never stated I was going to build one from scratch pulled square out of my ***. I appreciate everyone's concern for my safety.

I have a 79 Camaro I am building for drag racing to meet NHRA standards. I plan on buying a cage kit and modifying it (w/in NHRA standards) to suit my needs. I fit steel for a living on Navy ships, welds and fitup meeting MIL-SPECs. I know enough welders to weld high quality welds that pass X-Ray and a handful of engineers if needed.

If memory serves, $550 is about what I paid for the 105 a ways back. Check out http://www.rockbuggysupply.com. They are Pro-Tools resellers and have a slightly better price than going mfg direct. I've purchased from them before with success. I'm not familiar with any other resellers.
 

astroracer

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Holy ****. I ask a simple question and only one or two people actually comment on my initial question. Is the pro-tools model 105 hd any good? Is $550 a good price? I never stated I was going to build one from scratch pulled square out of my ***. I appreciate everyone's concern for my safety.

I have a 79 Camaro I am building for drag racing to meet NHRA standards. I plan on buying a cage kit and modifying it (w/in NHRA standards) to suit my needs. I fit steel for a living on Navy ships, welds and fitup meeting MIL-SPECs. I know enough welders to weld high quality welds that pass X-Ray and a handful of engineers if needed.

I also find it amazing how a simple question can turn into a ****-storm of speculation... And that's all it was, speculation and wasted band width.
It sounds like you have the fabrication AND your safety, well handled. :beer:

To answer your question, yes the Pro-Tools 105 is a good bender, it works just fine. 550 is a decent price for the bender and 1 die set.
Here is a link to their site: Check it for price comparison.
http://pro-tools.com/tube-and-pipe-benders.aspx
I upgraded mine with this kit:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=161977&highlight=astroracer
Makes the bender mobile so you aren't locked down to a post in the floor.
Have fun with your build and please post some pics as you progress..
Mark
 

justanengineer

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I plan on building the cage out of mild steel. What size die do I need? Is the Pro-tools Model 105HD any good? There is one for sale for $550 w/ an 1 1/2" die and the jd2 tubing notcher. The price looks good compared to retail.

Holy ****. I ask a simple question and only one or two people actually comment on my initial question. Is the pro-tools model 105 hd any good? Is $550 a good price? I never stated I was going to build one from scratch pulled square out of my ***. I appreciate everyone's concern for my safety.

No offense, but you might re-read your OP. 1st question asked - "What size die do I need?" - basic question that translates to "I want a cage, what size/radius TUBING do I need?" Not saying that it does, but usually such basic questions implies a serious lack of knowledge. Combine that with the work in question being a serious safety concern and you can see why folks got a bit sidetracked.

JMHO but Im not a fan of the cheap draw benders, Ill leave those for the smaller exhaust shops. If you want one of those however, you can pretty easily make one yourself if you buy/machine the dies.
 

astroracer

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JMHO but Im not a fan of the cheap draw benders, Ill leave those for the smaller exhaust shops. If you want one of those however, you can pretty easily make one yourself if you buy/machine the dies.
Okay, most muffler shops I use have a crush bender... Very different from the "cheap" draw benders we are talking about here... If you don't like the cheap draw benders what do you suggest us little guys with limited budgets use? Just curious...
 

justanengineer

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Okay, most muffler shops I use have a crush bender... Very different from the "cheap" draw benders we are talking about here... If you don't like the cheap draw benders what do you suggest us little guys with limited budgets use? Just curious...

Im guessing by "crush bender" you mean what I call a pipe bender like the first link. Im admittedly not a fan and have never seen those used for tubing in any modern auto shop. Most small exhaust shops Ive seen have a single draw bender like the OP's asking about but personally, for any bending that has to be precise I prefer a double-draw bender like in the second link. Folks will choke at the price of a new one, but its like anything else, find a real deal on a used one and buy it once. I see them a few times each year in the $700-1k range, occasionally less, and to me its well worth it. If you consider the mechanism itself (nothing too fancy eh?), a cheaper option might be to modify a log splitter or otherwise build your own. Ive actually had an idea kicking around in my head for a few years now after selling mine, to build a jig that will fit in a hydraulic press and do exactly the same thing.....I just need to get a few projects finished first to free up space/time/$$$ to build it.

To answer your question more directly however, for the "lil guys with limited budgets," I suggest getting the best deal on the best piece of equipment they can whether it be used, fabbing their own, or even buying new. Many folks get caught up in the "Im trying to do X job....I NEED Y tool" not realizing there are other ways of getting the tool or that for not much more money, they could get a much better tool.

Sorry, wasnt knocking single draw benders, just not my preference.

http://www.enerpac.com/en/safety-handbook-for-pipe-bender

http://metal.baileighindustrial.com/exhaust-bender-eb-300
 
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SM Racing

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My only complaint with the 105 is without a hydraulic conversion it has to be mounted to the floor or some other HEAVY stationary object. I like the vertical conversion on them. I have a 105 and a Williams LoBuck. I like the Williams because it is self contained. I can also mount a protractor on the tube as I bend. The 105 is a little more work to get a similar bend than the LoBuck, but they both do the job.
 

paranoid56

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My only complaint with the 105 is without a hydraulic conversion it has to be mounted to the floor or some other HEAVY stationary object. I like the vertical conversion on them. I have a 105 and a Williams LoBuck. I like the Williams because it is self contained. I can also mount a protractor on the tube as I bend. The 105 is a little more work to get a similar bend than the LoBuck, but they both do the job.

This, i love my 105HD and did the cheap HF hydro conversion. great little setup. if i were to do this again, i would look at one of those vertical ones. less shop space and ease of use.
 

rixtrix1

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(To answer your question, yes the Pro-Tools 105 is a good bender, it works just fine. 550 is a decent price for the bender and 1 die set.
Here is a link to their site: Check it for price comparison.
http://pro-tools.com/tube-and-pipe-benders.aspx
I upgraded mine with this kit:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/s...ght=astroracer
Makes the bender mobile so you aren't locked down to a post in the floor.
Have fun with your build and please post some pics as you progress..
Mark )

What he says! The vertical mount on wheels is awesome. I have a Pro-tools HMP200, also a vertical bender and I like bending in this plane.

NHRA requires 1-5/8", .118" wall minimum for a roll cage. I would use .125" DOM if going with mild steel as it is easier to work with than ERW, it can be MIG welded, however, you need to be careful that it passes the thickness minimum as steel quality has dropped in the past decade. A lot of cage manufacturers use .134 wall ERW to guarantee the thickness minimum is met, ERW is accepted and it's cheaper than DOM. For a lot more money, and time spent TIG welding, .095" wall 4130 chromoly tubing can be used for perhaps a 20% weight savings. The additional strength rating of 4130 is offset by using thinner wall tubing. Use of an 1-5/8"x 6" to 7" radius die is acceptable and commonly used on drag race roll cages. Dragrace minimum cages offer the minimum amount of protection of all racing categories, but the situation is different than other forms of racing , too. That said it doesn't mean one can't add additional bracing, as required by rules for vehicles going 8.50 or faster. It's all explained in the NHRA rulebook.

Roadracing cages are a whole 'nuther thing.
Ric
 
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