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Ice damming issues

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Feb 10, 2015
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I recently spray foamed the underside of my garage roof. This was to allow for attic storage. My garage is heated and I keep it about at 60 degrees. I am finding now that I am getting ice damming in the gutters on the side of the house with sun exposure. I was thinking of adding some insulation just above the ceiling to keep it a bit cooler in the attic in hopes to cool the attic a bit more to stop the ice damming. Is this a good idea or am I going to causing condensation issues as it will be cooler in the attic?
 
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Dick in Wisconsin

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Ice damming while resulting from a simple fact: Water freezes at 32 degrees. Ice and snow melt at 32 degrees.

I suspect that the by insulating the underside of the garage roof, its easier for the sun to warm the roof structure which is melting the snow which is turning into ice when it gets away from the warm (above 32) roof.

If you have snow on the roof, keep in mind it has to melt at some point.

Anytime the ambient temperature is below 32 degrees, ANY snow or ice that melts is going to turn into an ice dam and/or icicles.

If the ice dam looks like it will damage your roof, you might have created a problem. If you install heat tapes in the gutters and up the roof over the overhang to a point on the roof which the roof is warm, you'll give the melted snow and ice a path to get past the overhang, to the gutters, over to the downspouts, down the downspouts, and one the ground where it will probably freeze!
 
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Ray916MN

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What is you attic venting like? Do you have ridge or gable venting?

If all you have is eve venting and have no higher venting, the insulation is going to help heat concentrate at the top of the roof, which is going to cause melt up high on the roof and if the lower parts of the roof are cool enough, you're going to get ice dams.
 

finn

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Did you add "proper vents" to provide avented air gap or did you spray directly on the underside of the sheathing?

Without a vented air gap you'll end up with melting, which will run down to the cold overhang and refreeze.
 

theoldwizard1

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If the snow melt is being caused by the sun, no amount of additional insulation is going to fix it. 2 choices.


  • Buy a snow rake and rake as much snow off the roof as you can. The good news is that you probably only need to do this if you have more than 3"-4" of snow at one time.
  • Install heated gutter wiring. I did this in one corner of my house that is at the bottom of a valley. Only used it a half dozen times last season and not once yet this season. I used to get ice dams that were 8"-12" high .(measured from the bottom of the gutter)
 

DC73

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They spray foam under roofs in cold country all the time with no ice damming issues. It's very likely, the OP does not have enough insulation in contact with the roof. There are ways to calculate how much you need. Best to visit BuildingScience.com and/or GreenBuildingAdvisor.com for more research.

The sun does not normally cause ice dams. This is because the entire surface of the roof is heated the same. What causes ice dams is heat escaping from the house to the roof which melts snow and ice on a portion of the roof. The melt then runs to the overhang which has no insulation and is cold. The water then refreezes causing a dam that prevents future melt from leaving the roof.

DC
 

theoldwizard1

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The sun does not normally cause ice dams.
I will respectfully disagree with you.

I have a very large roof area that gets funneled down to a not so large gutter by a perpendicular peak and valley.

If we have a heavy snow (4"+) it will sit on the roof for days on end if we have no sunshine and the temps stay around 20F or below. When the temps get close to 30F and the sun comes out, I get a lot of melting. I know it is caused by the sun because I have a small poorly insulated attic and the snow on the roof over that area melts within a couple of days. (I have heated gutter wiring to control the ice dam in that area.)

If I have not raked the roof, I will start building ice dams within a day or two. Even with my 20+' rake I can only get <3/4 of the roof cleared. The little bit of snow left after raking melts in a few hours and then you can see the melted snow running down that part of the roof.

Capture.JPG
 

AirJunky

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Priest River, ID
11 years ago we moved into an existing house. The first couple winters were fine, no ice dams. One year we had a lot of snow & an ice dam formed at one particular place in the roof. Eventually we found the ice was melting & leaking into the house. Took a lot more work to figure this all out than a couple sentences, but thats the short story. After some googling, I found a handful of solutions. Yea, I could do heat tape, but there have been issues with them causing fires. Chipping ice *****, especially on a ladder with snow on the ground. In the end it was so simple. I buy some cheap $2 women's kneehigh nylons. Fill them with snow melt, tie a knot in them. Then from the ground, I can throw them up on the roof where the issue is starting. I do that 2 or 3 times a winter as the snow falls. In the spring, I find women's nylons in the driveway. And never have had another ice dam in that location again.
 

sands35

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St. Joseph, MI
If the snow melt is being caused by the sun, no amount of additional insulation is going to fix it. 2 choices.


  • Buy a snow rake and rake as much snow off the roof as you can. The good news is that you probably only need to do this if you have more than 3"-4" of snow at one time.
  • Install heated gutter wiring. I did this in one corner of my house that is at the bottom of a valley. Only used it a half dozen times last season and not once yet this season. I used to get ice dams that were 8"-12" high .(measured from the bottom of the gutter)

+2 - I have to do the same. One part of my house has a cathedral ceiling with no insulation (PO addition). Snow melts and then freezes when it hits the part of the roof that overhangs.

OR

Drop the interior temp down to 40-50*F.

They spray foam under roofs in cold country all the time with no ice damming issues. It's very likely, the OP does not have enough insulation in contact with the roof. There are ways to calculate how much you need. Best to visit BuildingScience.com and/or GreenBuildingAdvisor.com for more research.

The sun does not normally cause ice dams. This is because the entire surface of the roof is heated the same. What causes ice dams is heat escaping from the house to the roof which melts snow and ice on a portion of the roof. The melt then runs to the overhang which has no insulation and is cold. The water then refreezes causing a dam that prevents future melt from leaving the roof.

DC
#1 - Yes, but they either have much higher insulation values than what the government recommends OR they have a cold roof (or soffit vents all the way to the ridge). Snow has an insulating value of about R1 per inch (IIRC). So even though it's "frozen", a marginally insulated roof can have the surface be above freezing when snow covered. Snow melts, then re-freezes at the eave.

The sun can melt snow over the insulated roof or it can heat up the wall below the roof, forcing warm air into the soffit. Snow melts, then re-freezes at the gutter, either because the gutter line is cold enough to do it, or the sun goes down.

BuildingScience.com and/or GreenBuildingAdvisor.com explains all that.
 
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TTTTTT

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Steenburg Lake, Ontario
I will respectfully disagree with you.

I have a very large roof area that gets funneled down to a not so large gutter by a perpendicular peak and valley.

If we have a heavy snow (4"+) it will sit on the roof for days on end if we have no sunshine and the temps stay around 20F or below. When the temps get close to 30F and the sun comes out, I get a lot of melting. I know it is caused by the sun because I have a small poorly insulated attic and the snow on the roof over that area melts within a couple of days. (I have heated gutter wiring to control the ice dam in that area.)

If I have not raked the roof, I will start building ice dams within a day or two. Even with my 20+' rake I can only get <3/4 of the roof cleared. The little bit of snow left after raking melts in a few hours and then you can see the melted snow running down that part of the roof.

Capture.JPG

Getting a similar problem. In this case ,a gambrel (Barn)roof design on the south side. No problem on the north side what so ever. Where I did the flareout the snow accumulates. Same issue above. At this point the upper area(loft eventually living space) is unfinished so I can see some leakage at this point. It can rain for days with no leaking so I know its the above issue. I as well want to spray foam insulate direct to the underside. Also going over a few options. Either I rake it off as needed (but not there all the time) or considering a heated line along that edge. Many use them here. Would like to resolve it before I insulate, hoping to be before next winter. I watch to see the best options. I'll post a pic soon. Sorry forgot to mention. The space is totally unheated at this point, so it is not any kinda of heat lost. Although even on a cold sunny day the space does warm up (dark roof)more than you think perhaps creating some internal heat in the space. Maybe to the point good insulation will eliminate this as well. Either way it will be well insulated, just would like to know that any leakage has stopped.

Cheers Dave
 
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kgordon

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Syracuse NY
I would be curious to know the depth of the spray foam (closed cell?). Being that it creates an air tight barrier and assuming you have enough of it (you can never stop heat loss only slow it dramaticaly) i suspect its just the weather conditions. As mentioned put some heat tape in your gutter if it is causing issues with damage and run it every so often to knock it down. Make sure you run it down the downspout or it will just freeze solid.
 

bczygan

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Ice dams are caused by having a lower roof area that stays cold and one higher up that can get warmer. It doesn't matter where the warmth comes from. On high pitch roofs, sun can contribute, especially on south exposures with darker shingles.

Most of the heat comes from heated living spaces.

When you properly insulate at the ceiling joists, and provide adequate attic ventilation, you keep the roof cool, so snow doesn't melt. But ice dams are still a problem when that part of the roof melts before the area at the eaves and overhang.

One solution to this is to run a strip of ice and water seal under the shingles from eave up to above where the heated area begins. This isn't always a complete solution either.

In this case, a heated cable system is the answer and solution. It will keep ice dams from forming. They make them with sensors, so they only work when moisture is present.

Bill
 

Dick in Wisconsin

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I will respectfully disagree with you.

Understand and agree. But, the primary cause of ice dams is heat escaping from the house. When the sun contributes, it does so as a secondary factor. The primary factor being poor roof design, i.e., allowing form to lead function. DC

I strongly disagree with Mr. DC. The primary cause is the sun. Roof design contributes as does any heat loss or air leaks from the house structure.

Decades ago houses had very poor insulation in the attics if any. When my parents' house (NE Wisc, 25 miles from Green Bay) was built in 1955 my Dad said the accepted standard of the day was 4" of fiberglass between the ceiling joists. But he put in 6" fiberglass. Very little by today's standards.

Houses built in the last 30 or so years have lots of insulation in the attics, and still ice dams can occur.

If you have snow on the roof, eventually it will melt. Even with a perfectly insulated attic with zero heat loss, the snow will eventually melt.

There are three different outside temperature situations:

1. Below say 25*F. The snow, the roof, the attic will likely be cold enough the snow won't melt. The temp is probably cold enough that any sun on the roof won't raise the roof temp to 33*F. So no melt, no ice dam.

2. Above say 45*F. Let say it snow 6", its cold (less than 25*F, the snow probably won't melt). If the temp suddenly goes to 45*F or more, the snow will melt. Its warm enough that the melt water will be running on portions of the roof, the gutters, and the downspouts that are above 32*F and hence there will be no freezing, no ice dams.

3. Between say 25*F and below 33*F. While the ambient temperature won't support the 6" of snow melting, during the daytime and especially with any sunny conditions the surface of the south side of the roof will quickly warm up to over 32*F, even the air space in the attic will warm up (in spite of a perfectly insulated attic) which will warm up the north side of the roof structure also melting the snow on the north side too.

So the snow starts to melt. As the melt water goes down the roof, it eventually gets to the gutters (usually aluminum) which are light colored and don't absorb the sun light and get warm. They are under 32*F, the melt water cools, and ice forms. As the ice builds the water starts to puddle on the bottom of the roof (overhang) next to the gutter. This area is often cold because there is no warm air trapped underneath it like there is attic. Ice will continue to built up on the overhang.

Then night comes. Temps drop to low 20's. The ice gets really cold. The next day, with the ice mass really, really cold ... any melt water that hits it quickly freezes.

This is usually worse on the north side of the house versus the south side because the south side has the benefit of sunlight which will tend to warm up the house structure which keeps the melt water liquid versus the cold north side.
 

theoldwizard1

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... the primary cause of ice dams is heat escaping from the house.

In most, but not all, cases you are correct.

As I mentioned, one part of my roof has inadequate insulation. Clearly the heat from inside is causing the snow melt. Luckily this is a small area.

The largest part of my roof gets ice dams from snow melt especially after a heavy snow fall. Simply spending 30+ minutes raking as much snow as I can off of the section of roof prevents ice dams from forming.
 

TractorJeff

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I have a really steep Brown tin roof on my house. The soffits are vented and there is a 3 foot square screened louver at each end of my attic. If it is 20 below outside, its darn close to that in there! Anyways, the roof sides face East/West. In the morning the snow tends to slide off the Eastern side and in the afternoon off from the Western side as the sun meanders from one side to the other.
Does the sun make the snow melt on my roof?
Asking for your opinions as I already have mine.
 
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I am effectively going to be in the same situation, as my plan is to closed cell spray insulate the bottom of my roof. I have an attic space as well, but my plan is to spray the ENTIRE roof underside (not just the portion exposed in the attic. What i'm still confused on is if the OP sprayed the entire roof or just the attic portion (which would easily cause ice dams).

My entire building will be sealed with spray foam, but i will only heat the attic portion, so i'm curious to get others thoughts on if i'll have ice dams as well. I do plan on insulating my ceiling joists with R19 batts.
 

theoldwizard1

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I do plan on insulating my ceiling joists with R19 batts.
How much spray foam are you planning on spray on the underside of the roof deck ? Some people block of the eaves with foam board and then sprat foam over that, This guarantees that eave area will remain at outside temp. Make sure you have 2 rows of ice shield applied so that it goes well above the eave.

Are you talking about putting a ceiling below the rafters in the attic ? Or are thise the attic floor joists you are referring to
 
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How much spray foam are you planning on spray on the underside of the roof deck ? Some people block of the eaves with foam board and then sprat foam over that, This guarantees that eave area will remain at outside temp. Make sure you have 2 rows of ice shield applied so that it goes well above the eave.

Are you talking about putting a ceiling below the rafters in the attic ? Or are thise the attic floor joists you are referring to

The building currently has a ridge vent but no soffit vents in the soffits. I will block off the eaves with foam board and spray directly over it. The roof deck will get 3" of spray foam, the walls all 2". There will be essentially two ceilings since my attic and lower garage will be finished, one in the lower part of the garage which is made from the attic (ceiling) joists where the R-19 will go (the floor the attic), and then a ceiling in the attic which will be attached to the collar ties and rafters, but that will already be covered in spray foam - so i wont be putting any batts there.
 

86turbodsl

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I get ice dams on my house too. The attic has 1" of closed cell spray foam sprayed down onto the ceiling drywall and topped with about 2 feet of cellulose on top of that. AT LEAST R60 insulation up there. Roof pitch is 10/12 and shingles are dark charcoal. On the south side, the sun warms the snow up and it rolls down to the cold edge and freezes. NOTHING i have done to insulate has slowed it down at all, which tells me that sun is the primary factor there.
 
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