ICF consturction opinions please??

[swharris]

ICF construction opinions please??

Been looking at this as a possible option. I like it's structural strength and sound insulating properties. Costs permitting, we will be building with a basement below a single story "mother-in-law" appartment. Has anyone built with it(ICF)? Issues or concerns? Costs? I am in Southern CA so no cold issues.

Thanks.

 

[OBX]

I built a 5600 SF ICF custom house 5 years ago- awesome outcome, awesome product but DONT believe the cost comparison numbers- the house will cost MUCH more than the ICF guys will lead you to believe- electricians and plumbers and trim carpenters are just not used to deling with it and everything takes longer and is more expensive.

 

[rsanter]

we build a ICF building at work a few years back.
also friend has a house built with it.
they are great. I think if you are doing the construction yourself its the easiest.
you stack the blocks and install the rebar and bracing.
then you can pump the concrete yourself or you can hire some guys to do it

bob

 

[collmorgen]

My cousin just finished an ICF house in OK. It's about 3500 ft2 with a full walk out basement. He used SIP for the roof. Great house. Very efficient. His November electricity bill (all electric house) was about $50.

 

[swharris]

[/QUOTE]the house will cost MUCH more than the ICF guys will lead you to believe- electricians and plumbers and trim carpenters are just not used to deling with it and everything takes longer and is more expensive.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the opinions. I'd guess it's advisable to only use subs that have delt with it before. Did you act as the general for your house build? What are some of the concerns with the electrical/plumbing?? Is it a difficult substrate to attach things (shelves/cabinets/accessories) to?

BTW I will not be doing the construction(I'm waaaay too slow and the wife had forbid me from being involved in the main construction ;-) she'd like it done in a timely manner...hmmmp. Just as well haha.

 

[swharris]

He used SIP for the roof. Great house.

What is SIP?

 

[Stuart in MN]

SIP = structural insulated panel. It's essentially two sheets of particle board with rigid foam insulation sandwiched in between, kind of like a big ice cream sandwich. It's also a pretty good way to build things; it can be used for walls and roofs, it goes together fast and the insulating qualities are very good. My neighbor built a garage with SIPs a few years back and it turned out great.

 

[swharris]

SIP = structural insulated panel. It's essentially two sheets of particle board with rigid foam insulation sandwiched in between, kind of like a big ice cream sandwich.

Thanks. I'll check that out. I think I've seen a "This Old House" build using that stuff.

 

[OBX]

Running wire and attaching interior walls just takes a lot of TIME..labor will kill you....none of it is difficult, just time consuming

 

[jklingel]

We built my son's basement w/ ICF's, and it involves more than stacking blocks and filling w/ materials. That is how the sales guys describe it, but there's more to the story. (1) We had two blow-outs with concrete, mostly because the "pro" who does it all the time brought the big (wrong) ******** and hit the foam. It is sickening to watch 4' of concrete disappear out of the bottom block. Thankfully, we had 3 guys, screw guns and plywood right there. Personally, I will cover both sides of the ICFs I use in my new house's foundation wall w/ 1/2" OSB screwed to the blocks, just in case. It only takes a little more time, and if pud wanger blows the foam again, nothing much will get hurt. (2) Stick a 1x4 (wood) V, vertically, in corners so that you have something to hang sheet rock to. Most of the basement went well, but we had several odd blocks where we had to drill into concrete to anchor sheet rock. I know: It isn't supposed to work out that way. Ha ha. (3) Hanging wiring after the pour is not a lot of fun, and it completely destroys the insulation behind the conduit. (4) You'll need to cover any blocks below grade, and maybe above, dunno, w/ a very thick, sticky water barrier referred to as "bitchathane". It is time consuming. (5) You'll need a ton of bracing to keep the wall straight and plumb, which is also time consuming. (6) The R value of the wall is nothing to brag about. ICFs have their application, but know what the details are before you jump into them. Good luck and I hope whatever you do works out for you. j

 

[swharris]

J,
Thanks so much for your detailed honest opinion. That is the type of real world experience I'm looking to hear about! I appreciate it.

 

[jklingel]

SW: Sure. No sweat. And be real leery of cats telling you how an ICF building "holds the heat real well" and are cheap to heat. That is contrary to the laws of thermodynamics. R value is R value, and ICFs don't have a lot, esp when you tear them up running conduit inside. True, in a basement, where they can be pretty handy to use, your heat loss is not what it is above ground (talking cold places here, not Fla), so R is not as critical below grade. True, concrete is a nice thermal storage mass, but the question is "How do you heat it up in the first place?" If it is with oil, it's not a good idea to have heat escape fairly quickly, and it will from an ICF. If using the sun or other "free" heat source, then great; heat the blocks to 100 degrees in the day and let 'em radiate heat all night (or use the mass for cooling). BUT, SOMETHING has to heat or cool them to have heat to store or absorb, and it better be cheap. That is my take on ICFs. They have their place.

 

[walrus]

I've seen some companies up here in Maine advertise the **** out of ICFs then I see them go out of business. I don't see whats so great about them. I'd stick build and have someone spray foam getting some real R value. Now, having said that I like the idea of concrete for heat storage but I'd want R 50 or 60 on the outside of it to keep the heat in the building. A few inches of blue styrofoam won't cut the cake

 

[jklingel]

They are apparently very quiet, certainly will be standing 100 yrs from now, and may well be more 'quake proof than most buildings. Above grade, they seem to me to be a pretty spendy, labor-intensive option. The cats on the ICF forum, of course, rave about their merits (concrete is a renewable resource, ICFs don't take up trees.... blah blah). I'd like to see the figures on their embodied energy, esp the plastic, and how environmentally friendly the foam is (not). Maybe I have not read the right places, but I don't see them being used in super-insulated homes much. Below grade, they are hard to compete with, unless you enjoy stacking up concrete blocks for about the same money.

 

[nate379]

Wow that is huge! Do you have an PA system so you can tell your kids supper is ready without walking a mile around the house?

I built a 5600 SF ICF custom house 5 years ago- awesome outcome, awesome product but DONT believe the cost comparison numbers- the house will cost MUCH more than the ICF guys will lead you to believe- electricians and plumbers and trim carpenters are just not used to deling with it and everything takes longer and is more expensive.

 

[Teken]

SW: Sure. No sweat. And be real leery of cats telling you how an ICF building "holds the heat real well" and are cheap to heat. That is contrary to the laws of thermodynamics. R value is R value, and ICFs don't have a lot, esp when you tear them up running conduit inside. True, in a basement, where they can be pretty handy to use, your heat loss is not what it is above ground (talking cold places here, not Fla), so R is not as critical below grade. True, concrete is a nice thermal storage mass, but the question is "How do you heat it up in the first place?" If it is with oil, it's not a good idea to have heat escape fairly quickly, and it will from an ICF. If using the sun or other "free" heat source, then great; heat the blocks to 100 degrees in the day and let 'em radiate heat all night (or use the mass for cooling). BUT, SOMETHING has to heat or cool them to have heat to store or absorb, and it better be cheap. That is my take on ICFs. They have their place.

Love the information and feed-back!

 

[Red05GT]

We built our home about 13 years ago using the ICFs for the basement/crawl/garage
foundation and 6" SIPs for the first and second floor walls. I must have had the same
"pro" that jklingel had. He tryed to tell me how little bracing it would take and he would
be there to help me out and would be there when we poured. Well being a builder and
having done my homework, I put the amount of bracing in place that my experience told
me was needed, and proceeded on pouring day without the pro there. He showed up
about 3/4 of the way through the pour and was "amazed" we hadn't had any blow outs!
He was just another contractor turned salesman. We used 4000# peagravel readymix
with fiber mesh, and rebar. The basement area is a walkout and we used a system
similar to dryvit for the wall finish. For the electrical we used a router bit and cut the
vertical grooves from the ceiling down to the outlet and switch elevations. We ran emt
conduit to handy boxes and attached the conduit with a couple of one hole straps and
tapcons. We then used a can of spray expanding foam to fill the area around the conduit. The next day we rasped off the foam flush with the wall in preparation for the
dryvit scratch coat. You cannot tell the ICF was ever disturbed through the finished
wall coating. After water proofing we backfilled the basement walls to within a foot of
final grade with peagravel and then topsoil. With this drainage system we do not have
a sump pump or sump crock, and have no mold or mildew issues. The SIPs are great to
build with but your electrician should to be on hand as each panel is set to prep for out-
lets and switches and prevent excessive labor cost and whining later when all the panels
are set and then it becomes "this is soooo hard!!!" Using the ICFs for above grade gets
a lot more complicated with the construction of wood framed bucks to prepare for the
windows and doors. You don't just decide to add a window or door, or enlarge either
after you have your walls poured. In the seismic areas the ICFs might be a good choice
though if your local code official is on board with the system.