Not sure if this is cost feasible - but I know a few people who have built smaller scale ICF garages/workshops (20x30, 30x40) etc. I am wondering if anyone has done a larger scale building with ICFs? I'm planning to build in a year or so and I will be here a LONG time (30 years +). I plan to use the space year round so will install radiant heat. Thought of doing ICF with steel tin or stucco cover on outside and would prefer a steel truss roof (don't want look of wood inside and want open trusses so I can hang old signs in ceiling). Just curious if anyone has done or seen a large ICF shop building. Thanks in advance for any input
ICF (Insulated Concrete Form) Structure for Workshop? 60x100?
- Thread starter OldNeons
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jack stand
Well-known member
I was under the impression that one of the BIG benefits of ICF's was the "air tightness" that they offer. In a garage with multiple OHD's (that leak air like a sieve) it would make me think that the added cost of "non traditional" (ICF's) construction, would only be beneficial in house situation with well insulated windows & doors. I would also think that with the styrofoam interior, (in a garage) that you would need to take extra careful care making the interior walls were VERY fireproof. Not trying to "down" ICF construction, to the contrary, I think that ICF's & SIP's are very smart ways to build. As for your roof, keep in mind that to benefit from the ICF's, you'll (especially) need to keep up with the insulation up there as well. I built a "super insulated" garage w/radiant floor heat, and get disgusted in the windy cold walking (close) by my 3 large OHD's feeling the cold and draft as I walk by. Just my thoughts.
sickjuice
Well-known member
Havent done a shop but a house yes. Price them out. It wont be cost effective for a shop
Yrs ago when icf's started picking up steam, our local concrete company built a monster 100x120x20 structure to do truck maintenance in. We used the concrete contractor who did the concrete work and is very meticulos, and he was even learning new tricks as they built it.
Can it be done, easily....just have to have a mondo budget for all the mud it will take for the footings, walls, icf blocks, rebar, foam to glue the blocks together. One of those expensive upfront projects that recoup their cost every year, and at the rate of utility prices going up every year, it shouldn't take long to save thousands
Can it be done, easily....just have to have a mondo budget for all the mud it will take for the footings, walls, icf blocks, rebar, foam to glue the blocks together. One of those expensive upfront projects that recoup their cost every year, and at the rate of utility prices going up every year, it shouldn't take long to save thousands
Randy in Maine
Well-known member
I thought about them but opted for structurally insulated panels as they were more cost effective for my 40' x28' x12' shop.
I used these myself...
http://www.murus.com/products/pur_sip
I used these myself...
http://www.murus.com/products/pur_sip
Daniel Dudley
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- Joined
- Sep 4, 2009
- Messages
- 3,546
This.
bdymnjm
Well-known member
I considered icf's for easy diy build but cmu's were much less money. I recently saw a you tube video about super insulating in Alaska so I believe you could add the needed foam to the cmu's outside the building.
Jim
Jim
StevePgh
Well-known member
SuperD
Well-known member
Sign up to one of you local ICF suppliers for the one day certified installer course. Even if you are not a carpenter you will get a lot out of it. It probably will be under $100.00 and you will learn enough to know how it works, the pro and cons and then make your decision based on cost for stick frame or concrete. It will be money well spent. I just finished my new home and used ICF for the 4 foot crawl space, it is rated at R50. It is super insulated, best money spent on the home. I really kick myself for not using it on my workshop.
We did a foundation last year using this system.
http://www.thermomass.com/
Our regular foundation crew was able to do the job with minimal instruction. Was told a lot of the big box stores use this construction method.
http://www.thermomass.com/
Our regular foundation crew was able to do the job with minimal instruction. Was told a lot of the big box stores use this construction method.
I looked at ICf when I built my 40x80' fire and solvents changed my mind . Using torches and splashing laquer thinner happens in a garage no matter how hard you try to keep things nice. Look what happens to a styerfoam cup and a couple drops of gasoline. 
I ended up building all steel with a core filled block 4 ft up. I have heat loss on the 4 ft solid curb wall but the radiant heat floor overcomes any drafty feel near the 3- 12'x12' doors or curb wall . The most drafty spot in my garage is the area around the steel man doors. The two with windows are the worst and all three are commercial insulated man doors.
If I did it all over again I would look at a poured 18'' curb wall from the floor with SIPs construction for walls and ceiling . Then just line with steel in the work area on the inside shop area for welding . Use hardieback siding on the outside with a steel seamless roof .
MAC
I ended up building all steel with a core filled block 4 ft up. I have heat loss on the 4 ft solid curb wall but the radiant heat floor overcomes any drafty feel near the 3- 12'x12' doors or curb wall . The most drafty spot in my garage is the area around the steel man doors. The two with windows are the worst and all three are commercial insulated man doors.
If I did it all over again I would look at a poured 18'' curb wall from the floor with SIPs construction for walls and ceiling . Then just line with steel in the work area on the inside shop area for welding . Use hardieback siding on the outside with a steel seamless roof .
MAC
JC23
Well-known member
Anyone have any cost percentages for more or less than conventional builds?
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Those cam lock panels must cost a lot more than a plain SIP !
Agreed! Also to another previous post, I got to considering the fire issues...but the cost trumped that before I even dug into the fire component.
Hemi j
Member
I live in Colorado Rocky Mountains and I built my house and shop with ICF's , I love them I will never build anything again without them. Fireproof,bug proof, water proof and warm at -35 and cool at 90. There a lot cheaper then you think. The labor savings are fantastic.The cost was less then $35 sq ft. I used red iron and propanel for the roof and spray in isynene for insulation.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Did you coat the ICFs with anything ?
Hemi j
Member
On my walkout basement(shop) I used rolls of waterproofing since 3 walls are underground, the interior is dry walled.
Hemi j
Member
On the exposed walls I used hardy plank which looks like lapped siding but it's painted concrete !
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Can you screw the drywall directly to the ICF or do you have to put up furring strips ?
beck3906
Active member
The ICF foam blocks have plastic strips every 6 inches you can use to screw into.
Remember that using ICF means you must plan for all service lines like electrical before finishing the walls. It will be costly to add more later.
It was interesting to watch my electrician use an electric chain saw to cut grooves in the ICF to insert the wiring
Remember that using ICF means you must plan for all service lines like electrical before finishing the walls. It will be costly to add more later.
It was interesting to watch my electrician use an electric chain saw to cut grooves in the ICF to insert the wiring
csp
Well-known member
The locations of the plastic strips will depend on the brand of ICFs used. Mine aren't the block type, but are a vertical ICF that's one piece from bottom to top. The plastic strips on this type is every 12".
http://www.tfsystem.com
http://www.tfsystem.com
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Hemi j
Member
I made a hot wire setup to cut out boxes and wire channel. I used two different ICF's and both use vertical plastic vertical strips on 6" centers.
Thanks for all the input guys. I have a friend who builds IFC homes and buildings. He has equipment and experience and will help. He just did a 40x60 shop that I helped on to get my feet wet, of course that is 1/3 what I'm thinking of......anyone else have any experience on using ICF for a large shop?
Chuck
Active member
We did an initial design on a 30,000 square foot building with ICF, but ended up not being able to justify the expense in the seismic zone we were working in (too much weight for the lateral system compared to not enough wall to get a performance advantage).
A lot of the economics come down to wall area vs. roof area. If you're doing a small, high bay shop with a lot of wall and not much roof, it can work out pretty well. If you're doing something large, the amount of roof overwhelms the walls and you're better off putting that extra money into a better roof assembly. A 40x60 high bay (14' wall) would be a good example of what's probably around the break even point. You've got 2400 square feet of roof with direct sun exposure, and 2800 square feet of wall, most of which is going to be in shade or only lightly exposed most of the time. You'd be far better off in that case putting the extra money into heavier insulation on the roof.
You also get some benefits from extra thermal mass inside the outer layer of wall insulation, as well as less thermal breaks through the insulation compared to a stud wall with batt. Fireproofing is definitely important, ICF really needs to be covered with 1/2" gyp board.
Yes. You can get most of the advantage using CMU with exterior foam. Plus, you can leave the interior unfinished (clean and paint instead of drywall), and have a surface suitable for easier surface mounting electrical conduit, air lines, etc.
That is an absolutely excellent use if ICF, and extremely cost effective. Most people don't realize how much heat they lose through a vented crawlspace. I've been slowly retrofitting my place over the last 10 years, and my vented, uninsulated crawlspace is currently about 2/3 of my heat loss in the winter.
Thanks a bunch for that info. We have yet to complete a build for them, the cost/benefit hasn't worked out in the areas we've done designs so far.
I'd be very interested in that info myself.
wnstwolf
Well-known member
It's been mentioned but one of the gut checks that hit us when we went ICF route for our basement was that come time for Occ Permit we had to sheetrock the entire thing due to the exposed isofoam. As stated can't imagine solvents hitting it never mind a grinder or a weld spatter.
Cost of the blocks is cheaper than the standard rental of forms if you install yourself. It was a great part of our build and had a lot of fun. To do all that then need to rock the walls for a workshop might not be so easy to accept. thinking long term when you want to add cabinets or hang something on the walls the plastic is a pain and having to drill for tapcons is worse. Furning out the walls defeats the puropose for the ICF's seems like a tough choice for a shop.. $.02
Cost of the blocks is cheaper than the standard rental of forms if you install yourself. It was a great part of our build and had a lot of fun. To do all that then need to rock the walls for a workshop might not be so easy to accept. thinking long term when you want to add cabinets or hang something on the walls the plastic is a pain and having to drill for tapcons is worse. Furning out the walls defeats the puropose for the ICF's seems like a tough choice for a shop.. $.02
d300
Well-known member
I have a couple of smaller ICF buildings (30 x 30, 37 x 62) and love the final product: quiet, zero air infiltration (if doors and walls are properly installed...) easy to heat/cool.
It was 12° last night and the larger building was 42° inside when I was there a little bit ago. No heat in that building, just the daily sunshine.
NO, they are not inexpensive. My last truckload of concrete was well over $125/cy and ICF buildings use alot of the stuff. NO, they are not as easy as banging nails in 2x4's.
Yes, the foundation can be a bit 'special' depending on your seismic loads.
It was 12° last night and the larger building was 42° inside when I was there a little bit ago. No heat in that building, just the daily sunshine.
NO, they are not inexpensive. My last truckload of concrete was well over $125/cy and ICF buildings use alot of the stuff. NO, they are not as easy as banging nails in 2x4's.
Yes, the foundation can be a bit 'special' depending on your seismic loads.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
If you have tall walls, bracing and scaffolding are significant additional costs !
Radix2
Well-known member
Dragging up my old thread here - still no shop built yet
Can anyone add any new input regarding a large scale (6,000 sq ft +/-) shop built using ICF's, Insulated Pre-cast, or SIPS? Thanks
It might help the discussion to understand what you hope to get out of the ICF
construction vs other methods.
My addition used ICF for the foundation since I specced radiant floors and frost wall insulation, the mason uses ICFs for all of his buildings of this type. My floor area is 40x85 plus a couple other pieces for another 1000sq ft.
Compared to a conventional block or poured foundation ( insulated 42"deep) I don't believe there is any cost penalty to ICF. Above ground is 2x6 stick construction and brick. The walls are spray foamed and filled with wet cellulose - I think this is better in performance than a ICF wall construction would be - and in adddition simpler and less expensive to finish.
So without a discussion on what specifically you are trying to get out of the ICF construction, it is hard to discuss.
Dzlpete
Well-known member
About to build another whole house with ICF's. If you pencil out the materials- framing, sheathing, building wrap, insulation, vapor barrier, plus all the labor for all those bits, ICF's are pretty much a bargain. Yes, it will cost about $ 0.50 per sf more for the materials and labor, but you end up with a superior product in terms of energy efficiency, ease of construction, and strength of the structure.
You cannot build conventional frame that tight and easy. Literally like stacking lego blocks, with steel in them.
As for fire or solvent retardancy, I have yet to see a decent garage with exposed walls down low- always covered with something- sheetrock, OSB, metal, or paneling of some type.
Besides, they make a code compliant sprayable, or rollerable paint type product to go over exposed foam.
Its not really the risk of fire to be concerned with, but rather the smoke developed if there was a fire.
I am a diehard conventional framing guy, but for exterior walls, with current codes in place, ICF's are the best way to build, I am convinced- no organic matter in walls to rot or grow mold when moisture gets in and trapped.
I only use the Logix system, and it is excellent!
You cannot build conventional frame that tight and easy. Literally like stacking lego blocks, with steel in them.
As for fire or solvent retardancy, I have yet to see a decent garage with exposed walls down low- always covered with something- sheetrock, OSB, metal, or paneling of some type.
Besides, they make a code compliant sprayable, or rollerable paint type product to go over exposed foam.
Its not really the risk of fire to be concerned with, but rather the smoke developed if there was a fire.
I am a diehard conventional framing guy, but for exterior walls, with current codes in place, ICF's are the best way to build, I am convinced- no organic matter in walls to rot or grow mold when moisture gets in and trapped.
I only use the Logix system, and it is excellent!
sberry
Banned
At one point knew someone in the aggregate trucking biz local. It wouldn't be free but would like to have a truckload of cement gravel and pallet bags of cement and mixer about a yard. A guy might be able to do some bucket loader pouring on his own work or have the thing on a trailer, run it pto from a tractor. Could do a lot of work semi monolithic, piece or section or level at a time. Pour 4 ft today and 4 tomorrow in build pour fashion or even single truckload at a time. Aint gotta pour it in a day, could pick the weather a little as diy, build sectionally, don't got to screw with forms and rentals and contractors .
I would think it could work good for steel building footings
I would think it could work good for steel building footings
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gnpenning
Well-known member
My home is ICF and part of my garage. The rest of the garage is stick framed. I was **** about sealing everything up on the stick framing. Both have radiant heat. We are currently having below zero weather. There is a big difference in comfort and wall temperatures between the 2. Thermal bridging unless you do separate walls will always be there with stick framed. Even with spray foam.
Every time ICF comes up on here it becomes very apparent that some parts of the country have very high cost for ICF. Where I'm at it's very affordable and what I will use in my next place. Some places the vendor's are ****** the customer and I would either bring it in from some where else or go SIP, or something else.
One thing that gets left out of the discussion is bugs and rodents. They can't travel in ICF walls. No termites either. Hard to get it to mold as well.
I've tried starting scraps of foam on fire and have not been able to do it. It does melt. I wouldn't grind or weld with exposed stick framed or ICF. You have a greater risk of starting the stick framed on fire. Both should have some protection.
I love ICF but wouldn't pay stupid money for it.
Every time ICF comes up on here it becomes very apparent that some parts of the country have very high cost for ICF. Where I'm at it's very affordable and what I will use in my next place. Some places the vendor's are ****** the customer and I would either bring it in from some where else or go SIP, or something else.
One thing that gets left out of the discussion is bugs and rodents. They can't travel in ICF walls. No termites either. Hard to get it to mold as well.
I've tried starting scraps of foam on fire and have not been able to do it. It does melt. I wouldn't grind or weld with exposed stick framed or ICF. You have a greater risk of starting the stick framed on fire. Both should have some protection.
I love ICF but wouldn't pay stupid money for it.
ssdave
Banned
That sums up my experience with it, having built two ICF houses. Nice houses, air tight, sound deadening, energy efficient. EXPENSIVE. Harder to hang cabinets, difficult to alter electrical or structural after the fact. I did a lot of the work myself, so wasn't as bad an economic penalty for me to build them. But, I'm building a more conventional house now than those two; didn't even consider ICF more than fleetingly. Getting similar performance out of careful stick framed construction, at a much lower cost.
If that guy that says there's only $.50 a sf difference is right, in his area, I'd build ICF every time. But, the difference I have seen is more on the order of $30 to $50 per sf; once everything was taken into account. I'd gladly pay $10 to $15 per sf difference for an ICF house, start to finish. $15,000 to $30,000 extra it would be worth it to me. But, usually, I've seen $30,000 to $80,000 extra quoted for a turnkey ICF house.
Now, like all the $8 to $12 per sf shop builds on here, you can narrow that cost by scrounging materials and doing all the work yourself and with beer buddies. But, that's a pretty small proportion of the population that is able to pull that off. Most guys are going to have to pony up the retail costs of general contractor construction.
Sberry is right, if you can do it yourself, do small lifts at a time, minimize costs of forming and bracing, and not count your labor, it's a good process. I've also found that it nearly always pays off below grade, for foundations, if you plan it out to be easy to finish and tie into your ground level up construction well.
If you buy your icfs from a lumber yard or whoever, the braces are supplied. Just like a machine to blow in foam with purchase of blowin. Do not pour it 4’ at a time from someone who does lots of commercial buildings and residential. Cold joints are terrible ideas. Just pour it in one shot if you can. Take your time building. You can do a large shop in a week easily. It saves any insulating and vapour barrier on the walls. People don’t want to take into account that labour. Also the added bonus of thermal bridging so please include the cost of eps on the exterior of a stick frame and then see where your at for build cost. You’d be surprised.
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jhasafety1
Active member
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2013
- Messages
- 26
I did a 32" tall crawl space for my woodworking shop with Fox Blocks. Worked out very well. I braced with 2x4's around the inside. We didn't have any issues and poured a 30x40 crawl space in about an hour. I would hesitate to do a bigger project. Just have lots of help.
Dragging up my old thread here - still no shop built yet
Can anyone add any new input regarding a large scale (6,000 sq ft +/-) shop built using ICF's, Insulated Pre-cast, or SIPS? Thanks
I considered both ICF & SIP for both the house and shop I am currently building. I went SIP over ICF for my shop and did double stud (10" thick walls) construction for my house. I don't regret either choice, at least not yet. Cost and R-value were my driving factors. I really wanted ICF, I just couldn't justify it.
While you may get a higher revalue doing a double stud wall you will not have the air protection as with icf. I believe you would be more energy efficient with them. Or to mention the time involved building double wall construction. I can’t see how it was a massive amount cheaper. To make a good sealed stick frame you should basically have a wall with vapour barrier an 1” space and another wall built for all your electrical so you have no punctures in your exterior vapour barrier.
I would tend to disagree with a couple points here. With careful attention to the air and vapor barrier details, you can (and should) achieve a very low ACH. The cost is far less than ICF or SIP (that I got). But they all have their advantages & disadvantages. If money was not a factor, I would have done ICF. But it was considerably more expensive that both SIP or double wall. Double wall being the least expensive. Perhaps, in my area, because construction is nuts and concrete guys being even busier than most, my costs/bids could have been higher that what you may find. Your millage may vary.
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I think the bigger issue is lack of experience with icfs and a general fear causing a contractor to over price the work. If you priced the materials sepewrate including cement I bet you would be surprised in the price difference. I find here roughly 20-30% more material wise compared to average 2x6 wall. Now if you factor in the labour to build frame and insulate and try to seal yourvappur barrier properly there isn’t a big difference. And the difference will outweigh comfort and cost savings in efficiency. Wood shrinks and sealant won’t stick 100% everywhere for ever. I have no experience myself with sips. I know they are pricey and not used here much.