ICF Opinions

[moonpool145]

OK guys, just looking for some outside opinions on insulated concrete forms for both shop space and living space. As some of you know, I am doing a fairly huge project in lovely Haiti and I am contemplating this material. Current practice in country is CMU, no insulation and not much portland in the block or mortar mix. I can now get good concrete and am seriously considering using Insul-Deck or equivalent for both walls (tilt-up style) and roofs. The current cost for electricity is somewhere between $.40 and $.48 cents per kilowatt hour so some energy efficiency would be welcomed.

While I have used this material for floors, and ICF blocks for walls, this concept is intriguing. As I estimate the cost of construction, this method would not cost much more than plain CMU or cast concrete. Anyone have any thoughts?

I thought I would ask here given the talent pool and experience present

Cheers

 

[NUTTSGT]

Have you checked out Doug's thread ?

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=145073

I'd PM him with any questions about it, he's quite familiar with it's use.

 

[moonpool145]

Absolutely. Fantastic build and one of the reasons that I am pondering its use. I just worry about taking anyone's time by PMing which is why I throw it out here. Then if they have interest or time they can respond without pressure.

 

[wssix99]

I'm building a very tall ICF house in the city currently and if I had to do it all over again, I would definitely do a tilt-up version.
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The amount of labor to do this has been a killer. We have some very complex structural columns, cantilever beams woven in to the ICF, and a curved wall but even without that stuff - the ICF is not as easy as advertised. The tolerances on the foam blocks are not very tight, so getting tall, straight and plumb walls is a challenge.

If the house were one story, things would be very different. Every little error compounds as one goes higher, so we spend a lot of time working to get the block walls right and properly supported. The technology is friendly to unskilled labor, but the minute one adds special reinforcing to the building or has to deal with a bunch of differing lintel details, that skilled/unskilled equation flips dramatically.

I also wanted to do concrete floors, but we went to wood trusses due to the extra time involved for the build. It's taken us 4 months (a few weeks were due to carpenter shortages) just to do this shell with wood trusses and adding concrete decks would have added several months to that.


If you are in Haiti, I'd think that the price of labor might not be as much of an issue? I wonder how the cost of labor would equate to the crane time you'd need for tilt-up? Another consideration would be seismic. You may find that doing a monolithic in-place pour has advantages to the other considerations you'd have to make in order to design tilt-up to work.

 

[csp]

I've seen a couple of multi-story ICF buildings built and each one was configured one floor at a time then poured before starting the next floor.

 

[Krodad]

Hey Moonpool, I'm actually in the business...both on the ICF side and tilt.

We are doing some really amazing new things with tilt right now, which I think would be very interesting to you...especially for a project in Haiti. I was actually in Haiti 2 years ago looking at some new State Department concepts for housing for government employees...some very very weird ideas from the architects to deal with seismic issues.

If you want to talk a little, send me a PM and we can chat. There is a new slender wall sandwich panel tilt concept we are doing right now that would be perfect for you.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If you were in the US I would recommend Structural Insulated Panels. Their initial cost is high, but they are fast and cheap to install and have great R-value.

 

[moonpool145]

Thanks for the info guys, that is the insight I thought I would gain here. My largest building is 2 story's so I think we will be good there. One of the reasons I think this may be a good fit is that since all building material is imported (hence very costly) concrete may be more cost effective and it fits with the locals are comfortable with. No one insulates anything and I thought this could make for a good compromise and save on some energy cost. SIP's are a great option as well but I dont think the budget can stand it. One thing I have a great deal of is cheap labor

 

[wssix99]

One thing I have a great deal of is cheap labor

I think this would hint towards standard in-place ICF, unless you will be mass producing multiple structures. The engineering required to do tilt-up and address any seismic concerns could eclipse the extra labor involved with standard ICF. (Assuming the ICF manufacturer tables/look-ups address your local situation.)

I'm really excited about the energy savings and am looking forward to tracking that closely in my new house. We just got our first cold snap the other week and I found a plumber intimately hugging a column in between my garage doors. He was doing it to warm up and was marveling at how the building was radiating heat several days after the freezing temperatures started.

 

[moonpool145]

You could be right about in place ICF but let me add a few points I was thinking about.

1) First, almost everything has to be shipped and stored so keeping this simple with a single type of product has its perks
2) As cost is an issue, using the finished concrete side from Insul-Deck means 1 less surface to cover / stucco
3) We will be doing multiple structures. In total there are about 300 homes, 2,000,000sf of warehouse with attached office (warehouse would be metal frame) but I want to do the offices with ICF. Also, a number of other offices / buildings. In short, huge volume. We are the owner and builder so this is currently underway, just doing site work and marine construction right now. Starting building in a few months

 

[theoldwizard1]

Do you mix your concrete on site ?

Is there a concrete pumper that can be rented on Haiti ? Hauling 5 gallon buckets of concrete to the top of even a 1 floor building, by hand, is slow. I don't know if you could empty a truck, by hand, before the load sets.

I would not even want to think of wheelbarrows and ramps. They sound like a recipe for disaster.

A crane with a concrete bucket dumps too fast.

You will need a ********.

Both the inside and outside will need to be coated with stucco/plaster.

 

[wssix99]

You could be right about in place ICF but let me add a few points I was thinking about.

1) First, almost everything has to be shipped and stored so keeping this simple with a single type of product has its perks
2) As cost is an issue, using the finished concrete side from Insul-Deck means 1 less surface to cover / stucco
3) We will be doing multiple structures. In total there are about 300 homes, 2,000,000sf of warehouse with attached office (warehouse would be metal frame) but I want to do the offices with ICF. Also, a number of other offices / buildings. In short, huge volume. We are the owner and builder so this is currently underway, just doing site work and marine construction right now. Starting building in a few months

Ahhh. How is your water access to the 300 homes? With that many, I'd think setting up a fab yard and doing the precast would be the way to go. (If they are all the same design.) You should easily be able to capitalize on the scale, better manage quality, and go much faster with precast. With so much water around the islands, can you cast near your material source and use a barge to move the components?

 

[ptschram]

Wow, this is certainly a six degrees sort of situation.

Shortly after the earthquake, my neighbor was working with the relief/rebuilding effort and had a semi truck load of ICF forms delivered to his home, but the truck couldn't negotiate his driveway and I ended up with a truck-load of ICF forms in my driveway for a few weeks.

From what I've learned from my neighbor, this process is particularly well suited to such applications.

 

[moonpool145]

Working in Haiti is certainly a challenge. We will have good concrete to ASTM specs, batch plant 2 miles from site, pumpers, cranes (bought a new Sany 110 ton crawler) and a good selection of tools and equipment. Vibrators YES YES YES. The 5 gallon bucket suggestion is funny but so true in the country. Not on this site. Water, we are setting up a treatment facility with 10M gallons of raw water retention and a 200,000 gallon elevated tank for potable. And as to water access, well it should be OK as we are just starting on 3000 tons of steel work for port access

 

[wssix99]

Vibrators are key, as is finding the right mix that will flow well in the walls.

My wife is a GC and is working on the house every day. I have a picture of her with four of our guys during a pour and when ask people if they want to see a picture of my wife with four guys and a 4 foot ********, (for some reason) they seem to have different expectations of what will be in the picture.

I once worked to put a concrete roof on a building in Mexico and we did it with a mass of people and 5 gallon buckets. (All hand-mixed.) I thought my days of that kind of thing were over until we had to empty a small 3 yard batch for this house without a pumper. (We couldn't finish a small section when we had the pump, due to a large blow-out. Those were not fun days...) Hopefully your houses in mass production will be going smoothly after the first few!