ICON Socket——color me unimpressed

[AEAdam]

Who cares if it broke prior to destroying the screw or distorted the screw to the point of needing extraction? Given a choice between the two I'll settle for the broken socket over the distorted bolt destroying one. Incidentally, who is stupid enough to try this dumb assed trick when E-torx sockets are cheap? Lots of assholes in this world.

With respect, I think he was responding to comments that e-torx were unnecessary because a 6 pt can turn them.

Regarding socket failure, man, I disagree and am a little surprised by your comment. Sockets need to be harder than bolt heads. You don’t want your sockets to wear or yield in normal use. Every socket should do what the Snap On socket did. If any of you guys are breaking sockets by hand, you may need to upgrade your tools, not praise the seller for their return policy. The guy in the video couldn’t possibly have been applying enough torque to do that to a decent socket, wrong bolt or not.

 

[M635_Guy]

They are literally cheesy rip offs of Snap On pliers without any of the metallurgy or finish work that makes Snap On what they are. Blindfolded, you would know instantly whose are whose, just from the flex.

There are plenty of serious pliers manufacturers out there better than Icon. More and more, it looks like Icon is a scam, a joke, not a serious attempt at decent tools for good prices. I thought they were copying Snap On to harness good basic design. No, it looks like it’s just a style over substance thing. Marketing. A sucker test.

Klein make decent mid to low priced pliers in the US with a good warranty. Tar and feather me, my old Craftsman Professional (industrial?) black pliers (and screwdrivers) were pretty nice, inexpensive and have held up to a lot of abuse. Rumor was they were made by FACOM.

LoL - have you actually held or used any of the Icon pliers?

I have the flush cutters, the short hose pliers and the pliers wrench, and all of them are fine - there's absolutely zero slop in the first two, and the pliers wrenches are actually smoother to adjust than my Knipex pair. They definitely used fewer finishing steps than Knipex on those, too, but as far as use, they've been as good as my Knipex pair (thought the max opening is 2mm smaller than the Knipex, which is yet to pose an issue).

There's a YouTube channel that has been doing hardness testing on the Icon and SO equivalents, and the results have been pretty close. People use "metallurgy" like (A) it's a magic term and (B) they have any actual knowledge or insight about the metallurgy of either of the tools.

 

[M635_Guy]

Regarding socket failure, man, I disagree and am a little surprised by your comment. Sockets need to be harder than bolt heads. You don’t want your sockets to wear or yield in normal use. Every socket should do what the Snap On socket did. If any of you guys are breaking sockets by hand, you may need to upgrade your tools, not praise the seller for their return policy.

I interpreted him to say that when using the wrong tool in a situation (in other words, not normal use) he'd rather lose the tool than damage the fastener and make the situation worse.

The guy in the video couldn’t possibly have been applying enough torque to do that to a decent socket, wrong bolt or not.

Sure he could - especially since the socket wasn't close to the correct size to even make the attempt. It was super-sloppy on that etorx head. All that was engaging was the outer points, and not where the socket is designed to accept the stress.

 

[rooster59]

What sockets does Boeing use to bolt on wheels, landing gear, hatch doors, etc?

 

[65k10]

They are literally cheesy rip offs of Snap On pliers without any of the metallurgy or finish work that makes Snap On what they are. Blindfolded, you would know instantly whose are whose, just from the flex.

There are plenty of serious pliers manufacturers out there better than Icon. More and more, it looks like Icon is a scam, a joke, not a serious attempt at decent tools for good prices. I thought they were copying Snap On to harness good basic design. No, it looks like it’s just a style over substance thing. Marketing. A sucker test.

Klein make decent mid to low priced pliers in the US with a good warranty. Tar and feather me, my old Craftsman Professional (industrial?) black pliers (and screwdrivers) were pretty nice, inexpensive and have held up to a lot of abuse. Rumor was they were made by FACOM.

Out of the package the two Icon needle nose pliers I bought have smoother opening joints than the multiple Snap-On pliers of similar type that I have. The Icons have a tight joint, but still open/close smoothly and without too much effort. Meanwhile the Snap-On pliers (96acf and similar) are not as consistent. Sometimes they are tight, yet smooth to use like the Icon and most other quality pliers. Others are very stiff and sometimes quite rough. These require working them back and forth a bunch to break them in. Good pliers otherwise, but I don't get why Snap-On cant keep the joint tightness consistent.

I will say if there is something where I think the Icon pliers are lacking is the rubber they use for the grip. It is thick like Snap-On's, but it is not as squishy or tacky and end up being a bit slippery by comparison. I haven't had a chance to use the Icon pliers enough to get a good idea about their longevity. Mainly I've been buying these to stash in tool sets where I'd like a stiff set of needle nose pliers, but going Snap-On only would get costly. I'm curious to see if the Icon pliers work well enough in that role.

 

[dchawk81]

With respect, I think he was responding to comments that e-torx were unnecessary because a 6 pt can turn them.

I don't know who says that but I'd ignore them before I'd make a video proving them wrong. Especially on something that looks important.

 

[dchawk81]

What sockets does Boeing use to bolt on wheels, landing gear, hatch doors, etc?

Icon, obviously.

 

[zendriver]

What sockets does Boeing use to bolt on wheels, landing gear, hatch doors, etc?

https://www.biglots.com/product/12-in-1-multi-tool-pliers/p810496268?N=1806889567&pos=1:27

 

[dnschmidt]

With respect, I think he was responding to comments that e-torx were unnecessary because a 6 pt can turn them.

Regarding socket failure, man, I disagree and am a little surprised by your comment. Sockets need to be harder than bolt heads. You don’t want your sockets to wear or yield in normal use. Every socket should do what the Snap On socket did. If any of you guys are breaking sockets by hand, you may need to upgrade your tools, not praise the seller for their return policy. The guy in the video couldn’t possibly have been applying enough torque to do that to a decent socket, wrong bolt or not.

Watch the video closely. He destroyed the Snap-On socket as well. It didn't crack but it did become useless.

 

[Hakeem]

They are literally cheesy rip offs of Snap On pliers without any of the metallurgy or finish work that makes Snap On what they are. Blindfolded, you would know instantly whose are whose, just from the flex.

There are plenty of serious pliers manufacturers out there better than Icon. More and more, it looks like Icon is a scam, a joke, not a serious attempt at decent tools for good prices. I thought they were copying Snap On to harness good basic design. No, it looks like it’s just a style over substance thing. Marketing. A sucker test.

Klein make decent mid to low priced pliers in the US with a good warranty. Tar and feather me, my old Craftsman Professional (industrial?) black pliers (and screwdrivers) were pretty nice, inexpensive and have held up to a lot of abuse. Rumor was they were made by FACOM.

Please name the better plier brands, and be sure to include the prices. If you had read my original post, you would have noticed that I acknowledged that better pliers ARE available—albeit at higher prices.

Regarding Klein, I’m not sure what’s funnier: calling their prices “low to mid” or calling their warranty “good”. You clearly don’t have any recent experience with their products if you think this to be the case.

I am a professional tradesman. I rely on my tools to get the job done, to make my customers happy, and to provide for my family. My tools are a means to an end, nothing more. Accordingly, I don’t really give a **** what name is on my tools so long as they perform. The icon pliers I have bought have held up as well in my daily professional usage doing residential remodels, and that’s all I care about. The other tradesmen I know feel similarly about their tools. It’s always the hobbyists like yourself that are preoccupied with brand names.

Lastly, I’m tired of the little indirect jabs you have been including in your responses to me. If you wish to insult me, be a man and say it directly to me. Don’t couch it in some implied statement about a “sucker test” or “swingset repairs”. Thanks.

 

[Jtels85]

They are literally cheesy rip offs of Snap On pliers without any of the metallurgy or finish work that makes Snap On what they are. Blindfolded, you would know instantly whose are whose, just from the flex.

There are plenty of serious pliers manufacturers out there better than Icon. More and more, it looks like Icon is a scam, a joke, not a serious attempt at decent tools for good prices. I thought they were copying Snap On to harness good basic design. No, it looks like it’s just a style over substance thing. Marketing. A sucker test.

Klein make decent mid to low priced pliers in the US with a good warranty. Tar and feather me, my old Craftsman Professional (industrial?) black pliers (and screwdrivers) were pretty nice, inexpensive and have held up to a lot of abuse. Rumor was they were made by FACOM.

Craftsman Professional and Industrial pliers and screwdrivers were made by Western Forge. Facom had absolutely nothing to do with them. Wherever you heard that rumor must be where you’re getting your other misinformation.

I just walked out to the shop and asked our Link-Belt crane tech who uses ICON tools daily how he would compare their pliers to SnapOn pliers, and he said he can’t tell much of a difference. “They all work the same, haven’t had to warranty one yet”.

There you have it.

 

[M635_Guy]

Lastly, I’m tired of the little indirect jabs you have been including in your responses to me. If you wish to insult me, be a man and say it directly to me. Don’t couch it in some implied statement about a “sucker test” or “swingset repairs”. Thanks.

It's his MO. I think he's blocked me since I tend to call him on his antics.

 

[65k10]

Craftsman Professional and Industrial pliers and screwdrivers were made by Western Forge. Facom had absolutely nothing to do with them. Wherever you heard that rumor must be where you’re getting your other misinformation.

I just walked out to the shop and asked our Link-Belt crane tech who uses ICON tools daily how he would compare their pliers to SnapOn pliers, and he said he can’t tell much of a difference. “They all work the same, haven’t had to warranty one yet”.

There you have it.

After doing some looking, I can't totally discount a Craftsman-Facom connection. Searching for "Craftsman France" on ebay does show a few items sold under the Craftsman name that were made in France. Mostly some of those L-socket wrenches that are popular over there and some long reach needle nose pliers. The needle nose pliers (part # 45388 and 45389) show up in my 2002 craftsman catalog with no mention of being made in USA like the other pliers. Interestingly the catalog also has a listing for Facom cushion handle punches. That doesn't prove Facom made the pliers, but it certainly is possible. All that being said the majority of the other pliers in the catalog are listed as being made in USA. The black handle professional screwdrivers are listed as being US made as well.

 

[AEAdam]

Craftsman Professional and Industrial pliers and screwdrivers were made by Western Forge. Facom had absolutely nothing to do with them. Wherever you heard that rumor must be where you’re getting your other misinformation.

I just walked out to the shop and asked our Link-Belt crane tech who uses ICON tools daily how he would compare their pliers to SnapOn pliers, and he said he can’t tell much of a difference. “They all work the same, haven’t had to warranty one yet”.

There you have it.

Is Western Forge in France? Because my pliers are marked FRANCE like these.

I assumed France meant Facom. Regardless, they are nice tools.

The screwdrivers I had from this era, have black handles and black or dark gray square shanks (which I don't like). The tips held up well and the handles were comfortable, but I switched to Snap On yellow hard handles because I kept losing my black screwdrivers in my black car. No, not kidding. I chose my first Snap On tools for no reason other than the color and I stand by that decision!

 

[Hakeem]

I’d like to apologize for my outburst earlier. My pride got the better of me at what I thought was a personal slight and so I lashed out. Fortunately, AEAdam was the bigger man and reached out, and we cleared things up. Sorry for disturbing the milieu.

To fully cement our friendship, AEAdam and I have agree to a “Trading Spaces” type affair wherein we service each others vehicles using the others tools. Be on the lookout for a dedicated thread, coming soon

 

[dchawk81]

I’d like to apologize for my outburst earlier. My pride got the better of me at what I thought was a personal slight and so I lashed out. Fortunately, AEAdam was the bigger man and reached out, and we cleared things up. Sorry for disturbing the milieu.

To fully cement our friendship, AEAdam and I have agree to a “Trading Spaces” type affair wherein we service each others vehicles using the others tools. Be on the lookout for a dedicated thread, coming soon

Didn't even notice. You're welcome.

 

[neophyte]

Craftsman Professional and Industrial pliers and screwdrivers were made by Western Forge. Facom had absolutely nothing to do with them. Wherever you heard that rumor must be where you’re getting your other misinformation.

I just walked out to the shop and asked our Link-Belt crane tech who uses ICON tools daily how he would compare their pliers to SnapOn pliers, and he said he can’t tell much of a difference. “They all work the same, haven’t had to warranty one yet”.

There you have it.

After doing some looking, I can't totally discount a Craftsman-Facom connection. Searching for "Craftsman France" on ebay does show a few items sold under the Craftsman name that were made in France. Mostly some of those L-socket wrenches that are popular over there and some long reach needle nose pliers. The needle nose pliers (part # 45388 and 45389) show up in my 2002 craftsman catalog with no mention of being made in USA like the other pliers. Interestingly the catalog also has a listing for Facom cushion handle punches. That doesn't prove Facom made the pliers, but it certainly is possible. All that being said the majority of the other pliers in the catalog are listed as being made in USA. The black handle professional screwdrivers are listed as being US made as well.

Craftsman had a long connection thru the years to SK Tools, which at various times made a large number of tools for the Craftsman brand.
Around 1985, SK Tools was purchased by France’s Facom Tools, with both the USA SK Tools brand, and the French Facom brand, eventually getting combined under the name SK -Facom, with manufacturing in the USA by the former SK plant, as well as various USA made OEM suppliers, and other manufacturing in France, and various European countries, by France based Facom, and the various manufacturing plants and OEM suppliers Facom used.
At some point, the Craftsman brand switched from SK as there main hand tool supplier, to Danaher Corporation, but SK-Facom, remained as a supplier for certain tools, **** as the higher end Craftsman Flare wrenches, which I believe were sold as “Craftsman Professional”.
The SK supplied flare wrenches were USA made, but various other Craftsman Professional branded tools were also sourced from SK-Facom, and this included some French made tools, including some pliers (the ones I’m mostly familiar with was a set of French made long reach pliers, but I believe there were others).
Other French made tools, such as the “Cle a Pipes”, French style box wrenches were also made in France and branded Craftsman Professional.
The “Craftsman Professional” branded tools in a number of cases, included various imported tools, with the main caveat bring the tools were very high quality.
Bahco high tension hacksaws were sold under the Craftsman professional branding, as were some Knopex pliers, like the Cobras or Alligator pliers.
Some 1000v insulated pliers from Knipex may have been rebranded as well.
The USA made Craftsman Professional rebranded tools were usually higher end tools, like Armstrong made wrenches, or SK full polish chrome wrenches.

 

[wjjeep]

Ok Maybe it’s just me.

If I’ve got a fastener that’s stuck, that an impact won’t break loose I want to bring out a Howitzer not an M-16. If the socket would have deformed during normal use, then I would agree. It’s a piece of junk.

This.

 

[AEAdam]

Last thoughts from me:

Sockets should not fail below the torque the drive is designed for. Snap on numbers:

• 750ftlbs for 1/2” drive
• 250ftlbs for 3/8” drive
• 90ftlbs for 1/4” drive

Failure mode should be the shear failure of the square drive. What I personally experience is the bolt shears long before that, or the socket rounds the bolt head. Good sockets are designed to be harder than the bolts they turn. If you are able to break a socket, something is wrong.

You can abuse a socket by putting it on the wrong sized bolt, as in the video. But in that case, I’d expect the socket to damage the bolt, more than crack. But this is a special case, and we shouldn’t be using sockets like this or choosing sockets for this purpose. There are special extraction sockets for this application. They have super thick walls.

Here is my advice: when evaluating sockets, check out the Torque Test Channel and look at hardness, and tightness of fit. Try to choose the best in those categories. Last I looked, Icon sockets looked pretty similar to Williams, which I felt indicated these were decent sockets. I heartily recommended them based on that. This thread has no scientific data and just a couple anecdotes. But I’m troubled by the anecdotes, left wondering if quality is being “faded“ at the Icon factory. If you can reef on a socket and it swells or splits, it’s an objectively bad socket.

 

[KnurledNut]

Fatigue affects every tool.
Last week I cracked a Snap-on 14mm socket. Due to their design, the split didnt extend beyond the shallow broaching, and I was able to complete the job without it spreading.
Over the years, I’ve seen dozens of sockets crack from all different brands, including impacts.
While some manufacturers obviously have higher tolerances, better metallurgy, and stricter QC, none are immune from the affects of wear, stress and abuse.
How many cycles are on a tool certainly comes into play, but I’ve seen brand new premium tools fail first use too.

 

[cgrutt]

Fatigue affects every tool.
Last week I cracked a Snap-on 14mm socket. Due to their design, the split didnt extend beyond the shallow broaching, and I was able to complete the job without it spreading.
Over the years, I’ve seen dozens of sockets crack from all different brands, including impacts.
While some manufacturers obviously have higher tolerances, better metallurgy, and stricter QC, none are immune from the affects of wear, stress and abuse.
How many cycles are on a tool certainly comes into play, but I’ve seen brand new premium tools fail first use too.

I split a Snap-on 13mm socket while replacing my F150's transmission. Have no idea how many cycles were put on that socket but I had it over 30 years before it failed. Called Snap on and they sent me a new one didn't even want to see a picture of the old one. Never thought it was a bad design, brand, steel etc sometimes stuff just breaks. I'm sure your fatigue theory has a lot to do with it.

 

[AEAdam]

Fatigue affects every tool.

Hmmm, kind of. For steel, fatigue won’t effect a tool that has not been stressed over its fatigue limit aka endurance limit. This is how springs work. We call that “designing for infinite life”. So tools don’t just age out. But you are 100% correct. The tools you use the most, that you push the hardest, will probably fail at some point. But it could be 100,000 cycles. Theoretically, if you didn’t push your tools hard, they would last indefinitely.

Aluminum has a low or undefined endurance limit, meaning, regardless of the stress placed on it, it will fatigue.

 

[KnurledNut]

Theoretically, if you didn’t push your tools hard, they would last indefinitely.

Now thats funny.
What kind of perfect world do you live in?

 

[M635_Guy]

Failure mode should be the shear failure of the square drive. What I personally experience is the bolt shears long before that, or the socket rounds the bolt head. Good sockets are designed to be harder than the bolts they turn. If you are able to break a socket, something is wrong.

You can abuse a socket by putting it on the wrong sized bolt, as in the video. But in that case, I’d expect the socket to damage the bolt, more than crack. But this is a special case, and we shouldn’t be using sockets like this or choosing sockets for this purpose. There are special extraction sockets for this application. They have super thick walls.

I agree with most of this, the exception being using a socket for a completely different fastener than it is designed for. I'd expect doing something like using the closest SAE size for a metric fastener (all hex) to either work or damage the fastener. It the case of that video, the etorx is going to be putting stress in places the socket is not designed for, and it appears both sockets come out damaged (just less for the SO).

Here is my advice: when evaluating sockets, check out the Torque Test Channel and look at hardness, and tightness of fit. Try to choose the best in those categories. Last I looked, Icon sockets looked pretty similar to Williams, which I felt indicated these were decent sockets. I heartily recommended them based on that. This thread has no scientific data and just a couple anecdotes. But I’m troubled by the anecdotes, left wondering if quality is being “faded“ at the Icon factory. If you can reef on a socket and it swells or splits, it’s an objectively bad socket.

I guess my issue here is you acknowledge that none of this is data (which I 1000% agree with) but allow the anecdotes to give you pause.

In the case of the OP, it's a very odd failure if he was fully on the lug. If he was , I agree that individual socket is objectively bad.

Hmmm, kind of. For steel, fatigue won’t effect a tool that has not been stressed over its fatigue limit aka endurance limit. This is how springs work. We call that “designing for infinite life”. So tools don’t just age out. But you are 100% correct. The tools you use the most, that you push the hardest, will probably fail at some point. But it could be 100,000 cycles. Theoretically, if you didn’t push your tools hard, they would last indefinitely.

I understand your point about steel not aging out, but obviously that assumes the tool isn't being subjected to stresses it wasn't designed for.

 

[zendriver]

Now thats funny.
What kind of perfect world do you live in?

I’m 65 and with the exception of power tools, I still own and use most of the same tools I’ve ever purchased in my entire life.

I have to work on the same type of **** as everybody else.

 

[dchawk81]

I split a Snap-on 13mm socket while replacing my F150's transmission. Have no idea how many cycles were put on that socket but I had it over 30 years before it failed. Called Snap on and they sent me a new one didn't even want to see a picture of the old one. Never thought it was a bad design, brand, steel etc sometimes stuff just breaks. I'm sure your fatigue theory has a lot to do with it.

My 10mms are always splitting on me.

 

[AEAdam]

Now thats funny.
What kind of perfect world do you live in?

I said theoretically, right? If you want to debate the physics, save us all time and google "fatigue limit" or "endurance limit" and read the wiki page. If you have any questions, PM me and I'll do my best. This isn't my area of specialty.

Otherwise the answer is, I'm an aerospace engineer. We aren't reefing on rusty **** in our factories. So, yeah, we have very old tools in some shops that continue to work for a long time. They get replaced due to wear before they fail due to fatigue.

In our updated product lines, we have stainless topped, electronically tool controlled Epiqs (awesome boxes). Older lines have Lista boxes and those tools are 20-30 years old, used daily to build aircraft. Space uses blue Blue Point roll carts! And despite their unique products, they have pretty basic tools in them (usually 100% Snap On, but I've seen Bluepoint wrenches etc).

Sorry I can't take pictures for you guys. The factories I work in look like race car shops. They are pretty perfect, as you say.

 

[neophyte]

Fatigue limit is based on ideal circumstances.
Spring are not supposed to break unless stressed beyond their fatigue limit, but there is hardly a shortage of broken springs in the world.
These broken springs could be the result of “abuse” that pushed the spring beyond the spring’s fatigue limit,
The broken springs could be the result of use in areas were the spring was pushed beyond the fatigue limit, because the area were the spring was installed was improperly engineered or designed, and the spring would routinely get pushed beyond the fatigue limit either due to wear in the holding fixture over time, or improper design from the start of the spring’s life.
There could also be hidden flaws in the metallurgy that go unnoticed, because a basic spring isn’t checked with the thoroughness of Nasa parts or aerospace parts (which are certified, very expensive, and still sometimes fail).
In the case of a socket, it’s a mass produced part, made in bulk, that is likely never individually checked from hardness, let alone thoroughly checked for hardness, and the socket likely costs the same or less than some bolts or fasteners it gets used on.
I think it was mentioned somewhere on GJ, that Snap-On when tested, had some of the best metallurgy in the tool industry (or possible elsewhere) with an ultra fine and consistent molecular structure, and even then, Snap-On wrenches and sockets are sometimes known to have failed in use, especially since most tool use isn’t under ideal circumstances.

 

[dchawk81]

Fatigue limit is based on ideal circumstances.
Spring are not supposed to break unless stressed beyond their fatigue limit, but there is hardly a shortage of broken springs in the world.
These broken springs could be the result of “abuse” that pushed the spring beyond the spring’s fatigue limit,
The broken springs could be the result of use in areas were the spring was pushed beyond the fatigue limit, because the area were the spring was installed was improperly engineered or designed, and the spring would routinely get pushed beyond the fatigue limit either due to wear in the holding fixture over time, or improper design from the start of the spring’s life.
There could also be hidden flaws in the metallurgy that go unnoticed, because a basic spring isn’t checked with the thoroughness of Nasa parts or aerospace parts (which are certified, very expensive, and still sometimes fail).
In the case of a socket, it’s a mass produced part, made in bulk, that is likely never individually checked from hardness, let alone thoroughly checked for hardness, and the socket likely costs the same or less than some bolts or fasteners it gets used on.
I think it was mentioned somewhere on GJ, that Snap-On when tested, had some of the best metallurgy in the tool industry (or possible elsewhere) with an ultra fine and consistent molecular structure, and even then, Snap-On wrenches and sockets are sometimes known to have failed in use, especially since most tool use isn’t under ideal circumstances.

Are you referring to coil springs, or leaf springs? Either way they can simply rust and break. BTDT.

 

[neophyte]

Are you referring to coil springs, or leaf springs? Either way they can simply rust and break. BTDT.

I know.
Coil springs and leaf springs both routinely break over time.

 

[AEAdam]

I never cease to be amazed by what you guys find interesting. Of all the things we've discussed in this thread, you guys are talking about leaf springs. It's cool. You are interesting cats.

There was a debate in our office the other day about why stormtroopers can't shoot straight and how their helmets hinder them, yet the mandalorian, who looks through a tank slit, can hit everything like a boss. This is the sort of conversation people expect take place in engineering offices.

Fatigue limits of coil springs isn't far off.

 

[dchawk81]

I never cease to be amazed by what you guys find interesting. Of all the things we've discussed in this thread, you guys are talking about leaf springs. It's cool. You are interesting cats.

There was a debate in our office the other day about why stormtroopers can't shoot straight and how their helmets hinder them, yet the mandalorian, who looks through a tank slit, can hit everything like a boss. This is the sort of conversation people expect take place in engineering offices.

Fatigue limits of coil springs isn't far off.

What's wrong with talking about leaf springs? They're not obsolete. Not by a long shot.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I said theoretically, right? If you want to debate the physics, save us all time and google "fatigue limit" or "endurance limit" and read the wiki page. If you have any questions, PM me and I'll do my best. This isn't my area of specialty.

Otherwise the answer is, I'm an aerospace engineer. We aren't reefing on rusty **** in our factories. So, yeah, we have very old tools in some shops that continue to work for a long time. They get replaced due to wear before they fail due to fatigue.

In our updated product lines, we have stainless topped, electronically tool controlled Epiqs (awesome boxes). Older lines have Lista boxes and those tools are 20-30 years old, used daily to build aircraft. Space uses blue Blue Point roll carts! And despite their unique products, they have pretty basic tools in them (usually 100% Snap On, but I've seen Bluepoint wrenches etc).

Sorry I can't take pictures for you guys. The factories I work in look like race car shops. They are pretty perfect, as you say.

My opinion has typically been - an application like aerospace could honestly use the junkiest tools possible and still be fine. Everything is a "known" quantity, you have infinite $$$ relative to most any other repairer/builder, and you have the "It's not right, it's not going ******* anywhere until it is" policy.

As a contrast, the guys working at the shittiest shop in town are the ones who need the most premium tools. No new fasteners available, time constraints, money constraints, rust and corrosion, needing to sneak parts in and out and not disturb the other 90% broken parts nearby, management/customers who want the shitiest cob-job possible, etc.


I'm guessing not a lot of double-wrenching goes on at the aircraft hanger. What just nukes tools is "getting the job done" type of abuse. Impacting against something held vise grips, the rod breaks free, spinning against the teeth at 1000rpm. fasteners free spinning with the impact while you're trying to shove the open end back onto the nut to hold it because the vibration is knocking it off. Holding fasteners getting impacted on with a ratchet or ratcheting wrench. Hammering sockets onto glowing bolts. Hell I have a deep 19mm with the chrome burned into a smoke color on one side. Fasteners breaking free and then suddenly grabbing, shock load the tools.

 

[neophyte]

My opinion has typically been - an application like aerospace could honestly use the junkiest tools possible and still be fine. Everything is a "known" quantity, you have infinite $$$ relative to most any other repairer/builder, and you have the "It's not right, it's not going ******* anywhere until it is" policy.

As a contrast, the guys working at the shittiest shop in town are the ones who need the most premium tools. No new fasteners available, time constraints, money constraints, rust and corrosion, needing to sneak parts in and out and not disturb the other 90% broken parts nearby, management/customers who want the shitiest cob-job possible, etc.


I'm guessing not a lot of double-wrenching goes on at the aircraft hanger. What just nukes tools is "getting the job done" type of abuse. Impacting against something held vise grips, the rod breaks free, spinning against the teeth at 1000rpm. fasteners free spinning with the impact while you're trying to shove the open end back onto the nut to hold it because the vibration is knocking it off. Holding fasteners getting impacted on with a ratchet or ratcheting wrench. Hammering sockets onto glowing bolts. Hell I have a deep 19mm with the chrome burned into a smoke color on one side. Fasteners breaking free and then suddenly grabbing, shock load the tools.

A single aerospace certified fastener can easily cost more than the most expensive tool socket brand.
I’m sure these fasteners sometimes get damaged, but there is little point to damaging an expensive fastener, with a **** tool, unless you have to to get a plane or whatever in the air (ie. Military or Critical Emergency use)
Further, a cheap corroded socket might transfer corrosion issues to a fastener, ( this is one theory on why the Tesla Cybertrucks are rusting, and a known issue for stainless steel fasteners.)
I can understand why working on **** cars may require top notch tools, since getting corroded fasteners off or apart can be very problematic.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

A single aerospace certified fastener can easily cost more than the most expensive tool socket brand.
I’m sure these fasteners sometimes get damaged, but there is little point to damaging an expensive fastener, with a **** tool, unless you have to to get a plane or whatever in the air (ie. Military or Critical Emergency use)
Further, a cheap corroded socket might transfer corrosion issues to a fastener, ( this is one theory on why the Tesla Cybertrucks are rusting, and a known issue for stainless steel fasteners.)
I can understand why working on **** cars may require top notch tools, since getting corroded fasteners off or apart can be very problematic.

Oh I'm aware of the paperwork, liability, and costs. Which is why premium stuff is used. A flake of chrome can blow of a turbine.

I was just opining that from a fatigue cycle situation aerospace sounds like the easiest application possible for a socket, or tools in general.

 

[AEAdam]

A single aerospace certified fastener can easily cost more than the most expensive tool socket brand.
I’m sure these fasteners sometimes get damaged, but there is little point to damaging an expensive fastener, with a **** tool, unless you have to to get a plane or whatever in the air (ie. Military or Critical Emergency use)
Further, a cheap corroded socket might transfer corrosion issues to a fastener, ( this is one theory on why the Tesla Cybertrucks are rusting, and a known issue for stainless steel fasteners.)
I can understand why working on **** cars may require top notch tools, since getting corroded fasteners off or apart can be very problematic.

Right.

We are around $300/hr. Titanium fasteners we use range from $15-$60 each. As an engineer, I specify fastener torques and they are all in inch pounds and rarely more than 50-60inlbs.

Edit: we do have super high torques on some joints

@2ndGearRubber is right. We are not pushing our tools like automotive does. I would argue its people like me, working on their own vehicles in their driveways who really push their tools and need good ones. I can’t just throw a vehicle on a rack and get at something from underneath with an impact gun (not saying that’s easy, just better than what I do).

Adam

 

[Aileron]

You kinda are knocking them.

I guess your right. Hf has its place, if i was buying tools to last years I'd probably skip them , but for a emergencyor something you use once or twice then the price is right. I snapped a end off their 3/8 extension with little force. It twisted like butter. maybe a few things are made better than the others but I don't care for them putting the designer names behind their stuff, its all harbor freight.

 

[AJHD]

Two threads one here right now about broken S-On tools (3/4” torque wrench and hammers). “Good” or even “best” tools can break.

All tools can be broken... And the Titanic can sink too.

 

[ALLFAST]

A similar thing happened in this video to an icon socket during first use

Tbh a lot of icon stuff seems pretty overpriced when compared to your run of the mill Taiwan stuff that's often cheaper and similar quality. I bought a few ratchets and one of them started skipping teeth after a couple light uses. They have a couple home runs like their bit ratchet set and their lights. Wouldn't mind trying some of their snappy knock off pliers. But I have lost all interest in buying the standard tools, ratchets/wrenches/sockets etc.

People talk about the warranty, but the warranty is completely useless when all the popular icon stuff is out of stock for months at a time which is often the case at all my local HF's. I'll stick with the online tools for my non USA made stuff and just deal with shipping times instead for warranties. Or I'll go with Pittsburgh, their sockets haven't let me down yet for my beater throwaway sets.

After reading this very interesting thread , I’m reminded that our eyes have no warranty and that the minute I decide to yard on ANY fastener , with ANY socket, my very best safety glasses get donned.

I’m not thinking of the brand in these moments, but the potential ( albeit rare) failure.

 

[dnschmidt]

If you're talking aerospace here's an interesting fact. All of the tools used on the SR-71 blackbird were black oxide and came in unique tool boxes. Apparently the cadmium and chrome used in the plating process would cause the titanium skin to fracture under stress if any chrome tools touched the titanium. MP's routinely inspected all toolboxes for any sign of chrome. These special toolboxes were shipped ahead of the Blackbirds to Okinawa prior to their arrival and left when they did. I was told this by my friend Ed Posavac who worked on the SR-71.